I am surprised at this. They had been developing nicely as a pair. They didn't have their best skate at Worlds, but all the Bergamo pairs were a bit of there and he skated the free with a dislocated bone in his thumb/hand.
Finland's Vaananen and Clerici split
- Thread starter FlossieH
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There are rumours that she is looking for a partner with citizenship now because of the Olympics...we will see what happens. It would definitely be sad if Filippo was ditched because of this
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I was thinking the same but I think it will be too soon as there is no Finn man who had tried pairs, but Dr V but I think Milania is too tall for him. Finland has several active male skaters, but someone of them switching to pairs, I just cannot imagine anybody being good enough to make it. I don't know anyone possbile partner having for ex. dual citizenship living in another country either.
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And people wonder why I hate the Olympics. Well, this situation is the perfect example.
How many times over the years have we seen skaters who are good enough to go to the Majors, and even challenge for top positions, miss out on the Olympics because of the citizenship requirement? Or because there are a lot less slots than at Worlds?
The citizenship requirement and the unnecessarily small number of slots make the Olympics a joke.
I would be all for the Olympics if they ran to the same rules as the ISU-run Majors. Every country being guaranteed at least one slot, so long as the skater / partnership meets the minimum technical requirements. But they don't. All the IOC cares about is keeping the total number of people they have to provide accommodation, food, etc. for down so as to keep the costs down. So, they put in these additional requirements to shrink the field.
And that is why I will always see the World Championships as the pinnacle of the sport. Because they do not have any of these artificial requirements. (Although, I do feel that the numbers going through to the Free are too small at the ISU-run Majors).
I wish Milania and FiIippo all the best for the future, and hope they both get sorted out with new partners soon. They don't deserve to be left on the shelf because of the IOC and their idiotic additional requirements.
Rant over.
CaroLiza_fan
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If they want to go to the Olympics one day, probably best to
It's hard to hate something that is THE goal of so many athletes.... Why not just support the skaters, on their journey ? Milania realized she won't make her dream goal with FIlippo and is trying for another suitable option. I encourage her. She's already been at Worlds... it's not the same thing at all. I find that the Olympic haters forget how meaningful that moment is for the athletes of all sports, a goal they've had forever.
To hate on that is just to me, a great lack of understanding of the whole thing that are the Olympics, as a multi-sports event where people not only compete against each other in their own discipline, but compete together under a team/flag, being part of different sports, but once every 4 years, meeting up for a couple weeks of reaching for higher and better. I find it inspiring.
Regarding Milania and FIlippo, I am truly saddened but it seems to me that they were better earlier this season??? Maybe I am wrong. I felt something was off in the last couple events for them.
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Sorry to say this, but this problem basically only exists because the ISU has laxer eligibility rules than most other sporting organisations. Here are some comparisons:
| ISU | FIG | World Aquatics | FIFA | World Athletics | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sports | Speed, figure & synchronised skating | Artistic, rhythmic, trampoline, acrobatic & aerobic gymnastics, parkour | Swimming, open water swimming, diving, high diving, artistic swimming, water polo | Football | Track and field, race walking, cross country, road, mountain & ultra running |
| Citizenship required? | No | Yes, for both judges & gymnasts | Yes | Yes | Yes |
| Additional requirements | Citizenship or 1+ year permanent (& ongoing) residence In pairs/dance, one partner and in synchro up to 4 skaters are allowed to not fulfill this requirement | - | 1+ year of uninterrupted residency for naturalised citizens | "Clear connection" to country represented (player or parent/grandparent born in country or residency for 5+ years) | Citizenship through birth/descent, 3+ year residency or refugee/asylum status Citizenship though marriage/residency below 3 years only after 3 year waiting period & close ties to country |
| Country changes | Consent of previous federation necessary Waiting period of 12 months from the last international competition | Max. 3 per year for each federation (max. 2 from one discipline) Max. one every 3 years for each gymnast With consent of previous federation, gymnasts can immediately start competing; otherwise waiting period of 1 year | Waiting period of 1 year "Close ties" to new country Swimmers below 18 only establish sports citizenship when they compete at major meets | Only for players who have played less than 3 games at the Sr level prior to the age of 21 | Immediately if the country is incorporated into another country, ceases to exist or lacks a NOC Only once with a waiting period of 3 years, when athlete over 20 years old, citizen of & close ties with new country Second country change only under exceptional instances back to first country represented National competitions count for sports citizenship |
There are good reasons why the ISU has laxer eligibility rules, and other organisations have stricter ones (often due to countries "buying" better athletes who had no connection at all to the new country), but I'm just saying that the ISU is actually more of an outlier here.
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Arrtu Juusola for the 2030 Olympics? He would need to work on his upper body strength to do pairs.
I don't know any Olympic sport that doesn't require citizenship for the country you represent in any competitions. The whole concept of representing a country is based on citizenship or you just represent yourself as individuals, but you don't need a flag then and a country sign next to your name. What ISU does is kind of weird for most people outside the figure skating world.
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Honestly, I don't understand why anybody would hold the Olympics on a pedestal any more. They lost what made them special - being an event for purely amateur athletes - a long time ago. Now, they are just yet another event for elite athletes. And one of a growing number of multi-sport events. The only reason the Olympics stand out from other events is that they have really good broadcasting deals and a really good publicity team.
The Olympics are not a proper sporting event any more. They are an entertainment event that includes sports. The extravagent Opening and Closing Ceremonies are proof of it. A proper sporting event doesn't need things like that.
The World Championships, on the other hand, are a proper sporting event. Yes, there is a Gala Exhibition at the end, but that is a showcase of what the athletes have achieved in the preceding competitions. Before that the focus is completely on the sport. There are no unnecessary restrictions aimed at cutting down the number of people competing. And because of that, it means more because you know that the athletes finished where they were meant to finish. There are no doubts, like thinking "Oh, they only finished there because so-and-so was missing due to not having a particular passport".
And on that note, you all know that I do not buy into this whole representing a country thing. You are representing your coach, your club, your family. Your nationality should only be a means of describing where you come from.
Very interesting.
I knew about the football requirements, because every time a footballer from Northern Ireland opts to represent Ireland, the local media blows it up into a whole big controversy. And I knew about the gymnastics requirements, because the FIG tried to stop Rhys McClenaghan and some other NI gymnasts from representing Northern Ireland at the most recent Commonwealth Games because they had represented Ireland at other events since the previous Commonwealth Games.
But I didn't know about the other sports. So, thank you.
However, all the sports you have used for comparison are Summer sports. What are the requirements like in other Winter sports? It would be fascinating to see a comparison table for them.
By the way, I've already requested that this conversation be moved to a new thread, so we don't need to worry about going way off topic.
CaroLiza_fan
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As Milania had written "thanks to Finnish federation" it may mean she is planning to change federation, as I cannot imagine any of the Finnish men turning to pairs. She has Russian mother, so probably she speaks Russian. My wild guess is she tries to find, or even already has found, some Russian or Russian speaking partner and will switch to Some Russian speaking or another small federation, where it is easy to get citizenship. On the partnership with Filippo, I think lifts were issue from the beginnig, they developed in it, but looks Filippo often has some hand injuries, somaybe 160 cm tall skater is too much for him. Is either of them at partner search?
I didn't see either of them on Ice Partner Search when I checked.
Marco Zandron is available, he's representing Spain and trains in the same academy in Italy, but under a different coach.
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Yes, partnering up with somebody from the same club would be ideal. A lot less upheaval for everybody involved.
However, Marco's last international competition for Spain was only 2 months ago, at the Merano Ice Trophy. So, he would be under embargo until the middle of next February. Which is not ideal.
Oh, how I wish Pairs Skating and Ice Dance were like Doubles partnerships in Tennis, where both players don't necessarily have to represent the same country. Hey, if that came in for Pairs and Dance, most of the problems that frequently arise simply wouldn't exist.
CaroLiza_fan
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Filippo had written Milania is going to diffrent partner and different coach, so maybe she already has made her decision/found a partner. Who ever it will, changing fed will mean Milania herself cannot represent different country in February as she was at Boston Worlds.
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Only true for the WTA/ATP events.
ITF events , like Davis Cup, Billie Jean King Cup, a bunch of other per country competition (former Hopman Cup, or now United Cup) and of course, the Olympics, both players have to represent the same country.
The ISU is actually much more flexible than some other countries with country hopping.
Your beef with the IOC and the Olympics in general is bugging me because it doesn't respect the athletes' will and wishes. If they want to participate because it's their dream and that requires switching partners or even countries, let it be so.
I like the Finns but they were not on a good trajectory. I tend to believe that what we see on the ice is just a small part of what is happening in training. Look at McIntosh and Zandron... they were horrible on the ice... way below their respective talent. It wasn't working out for them. Who knows why but it could something as simple that one of them didn't like the training environment or that off ice, they didn't get along or whatever.... Izzo Ferland were not working out either... and Izzo seems happier skating for a small fed with a much less talented skater than Thierry was.
I am writing all this because whenever there is a split, some people often get pink coloured glasses about the former partnership. It wasn't working out great other the fact that they were giving Finland a team, which is something that hadn't happened in a long time (don't remember if they ever had one since I follow the sport).
To me, this is a good split. I wish both skaters the best and I hope they will find a way to achieve their dreams, including the Olympics, if that's part of it
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Finland has had brother-sister pair Pekkalas and 80's, then a short partnership Emilia SIMONEN with Matthew PENASSE from USA who took part in home worlds 2017- I will check am the names later. Ljubov Efimenko tried to pair with Matthew later but they never competed in any major event and later she switched to Netherlands(?) for a while with someone else.Only true for the WTA/ATP events.
ITF events , like Davis Cup, Billie Jean King Cup, a bunch of other per country competition (former Hopman Cup, or now United Cup) and of course, the Olympics, both players have to represent the same country.
The ISU is actually much more flexible than some other countries with country hopping.
Your beef with the IOC and the Olympics in general is bugging me because it doesn't respect the athletes' will and wishes. If they want to participate because it's their dream and that requires switching partners or even countries, let it be so.
I like the Finns but they were not on a good trajectory. I tend to believe that what we see on the ice is just a small part of what is happening in training. Look at McIntosh and Zandron... they were horrible on the ice... way below their respective talent. It wasn't working out for them. Who knows why but it could something as simple that one of them didn't like the training environment or that off ice, they didn't get along or whatever.... Izzo Ferland were not working out either... and Izzo seems happier skating for a small fed with a much less talented skater than Thierry was.
I am writing all this because whenever there is a split, some people often get pink coloured glasses about the former partnership. It wasn't working out great other the fact that they were giving Finland a team, which is something that hadn't happened in a long time (don't remember if they ever had one since I follow the sport).
To me, this is a good split. I wish both skaters the best and I hope they will find a way to achieve their dreams, including the Olympics, if that's part of it
Finland has also olympic gold in pairs, Ludowika and Walter Jakobson won 1920. They won also some medals at worlds and Olympis silver 1924. Ludowika was originally German, Walter a Finn.
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Nice ! Thanks for sharing. I started watching skating in 1988... so that explains my lack of knowledge.. I don't remember the 2017 team you mentioned nor Efimenko...
Amazing that Finland has Olympic medals in pairs from over 100 years ago !
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I don't know. I think that can cut both ways. The origin of "amateur" sports was rooted in class rules. Upper class and titled people who did not have to work for a living and who could put their children into fancy boarding schools with athletic programs could dabble in sports if the fancy struck them. For the lower classes, if they were good enough at say, boxing, they could eke out a living by renting themselves out as a punching bag in local dives. Quite naturally you can't expect the son of the lord of the manner to rub shoulders with commoners, so amateur and professional competitions had to be strictly segregated.
The founder of the modern Olympic movement was Baron Pierre de Coubertin. He was succeeded as IOC president by Count
Henri de Baillet-Latour, then by J Sigfried Edstrom (Order of the White Rose of Finland), and later Michael Morris Lord Killinin and Juan Antonio Marquess of Samaranch.
( In between was the staunchest and most unyielding of all champions of amateurism, America's Avery Brundage. Born to a working class family in working class Detroit, he was abandoned by his father and raised as a semi-orphan by relatives. He was also a teammate of Native American athlete Jim Thorpe at the 1912 Olympics. The IOC deprived Thorpe of his medals because he had once accepted a small amount of cash to play on a barn-storming football team. Decades later Thoirpe's medals were restored posthumously.)
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These are not trivial reasons, there are many sports/disciplines where Olympics bring the biggest visibility. Would be next to impossible for say, sailing, rowing or shooting to gain such broadcast slots which they get from the Olympics.
Of course it's different for the big professional sports. I think that Olympic soccer or baseball tournament is absolutely pointless.
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