Philip Hersh on numbers and pressure for Petrosian at Olympics

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I only have one prediction about next season. We will see a triple Axel attempt by Alysa Liu some time before the Olympics. And maybe by Wakaba Higuchi.

Would love Wakaba to have a Mirai-type program at the Olympics and show the younguns!

 

[Arigato]

a lot of judges watch each skater and don't judge good enough.

I think many who aren't judges don't judge good enough.

All the Eteri/Russian politicking aside, in fairnes to Adelia she IS a good skater, who executes elements at a world class level,

And you're worried about the judges missing something?

Let's throw down a challenge for all the female skaters. Rule #1: You can't throw your leg up in the air upon hitting the ice after a jump. Now we'll see who has speed, flow, and a great running edge out. If the leg goes up in the air, the skater is disqualified.

If this is "world class" to you, we differ. Greatly.

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Too much prep.
Too much thought.
Too much insecurity.

 

[gmyers]

I think many who aren't judges don't judge good enough.




And you're worried about the judges missing something?

Let's throw down a challenge for all the female skaters. Rule #1: You can't throw your leg up in the air upon hitting the ice after a jump. Now we'll see who has speed, flow, and a great running edge out. If the leg goes up in the air, the skater is disqualified.

If this is "world class" to you, we differ. Greatly.

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Too much prep.
Too much thought.
Too much insecurity.

While isu abolished transitions as a separate category it was all folded into composition! The idea that after a jump you can just glide and flow is still not accepted and while demean the leg extensions they are demanded for good comp score

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think many who aren't judges don't judge good enough.




And you're worried about the judges missing something?

Let's throw down a challenge for all the female skaters. Rule #1: You can't throw your leg up in the air upon hitting the ice after a jump. Now we'll see who has speed, flow, and a great running edge out. If the leg goes up in the air, the skater is disqualified.

If this is "world class" to you, we differ. Greatly.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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Too much prep.
Too much thought.
Too much insecurity.

People who aren’t judges not judging well enough? Groundbreaking.

But the judges are trained and paid to judge well so there’s a diff.

What’s the issue with the leg up in the air? The skater should get GOE for extension and good body position (assuming it’s controled).

 

[gkelly]

While isu abolished transitions as a separate category it was all folded into composition! The idea that after a jump you can just glide and flow is still not accepted and while demean the leg extensions they are demanded for good comp score

Good flow on the landing is rewarded in GOE.

Control on the landing with a special position that's more difficult than standard landing position can be rewarded in GOE.

It is not easier to raise the leg on a held landing edge than to hold a low leg on a controlled landing edge. Both can be rewarded for the quality of the edge, but adding a variation is generally an upgrade not a downgrade.

What's penalized/not rewarded is NOT holding the landing. I.e., a landing edge that covers inches rather than feet before the free foot steps on the ice.

But the judges are trained and paid to judge well so there’s a diff.

Judges are not paid. They are volunteers. Their expenses are paid and they are treated well when they are at competitions, maybe some gifts, but they do not receive a salary from the ISU or other hosting organizations.

What’s the issue with the leg up in the air? The skater should get GOE for extension and good body position (assuming it’s controled).

Agreed.

 

[Arigato]

People who aren’t judges not judging well enough? Groundbreaking.

You're the one who started out by stating "the judges don't judge good enough." My position is they judge just fine but the spectators are deluding themselves they're legends in their own minds - and know better than the "stupid judges" since they didn't score their pet skater high enough.

What’s the issue with the leg up in the air? The skater should get GOE for extension and good body position (assuming it’s controled).

A skater comes down on the ice and assessed for speed, flow, and good running edge out of the jump. Newsflash: That's why some skaters get high GOE and some do not. This is a landing and an exit. If a poor skater can't do any of that, they just throw their leg up in the air to cover the flaws. A particular coach from a particular country teaches that rubbish to her girls. What's not to understand here? I simply call it dirty camouflage to cover up weak skills.

 

[AshWagsFan]

I don’t think it’ll be as easy as some think it is for Petrosyan to win. I think if you get some sort of scenario where lightning strikes with Amber (or even an unexpected Nakai or Higuchi) throwing down 3 triple axels, the BV will be close enough, and as far as components, Adelia has no reputation with judges, and she’s not exactly a Kostner or Miyahara artistically…

i think it’s going to be really interesting, and i’m excited for the ladies Olympics for the first time in a while. We aren’t expecting there to be one winner, there really are multiple women who could get into the shake up, and there are even some coming back who could make a splash. Who knows, maybe the Oly podium will be Petrosyan, Young You with a restored 3A, and healthy Loena finally throwing down clean programs when it counts.

I’m also wondering who the USA will push as their #1. Alysa is probably a “safer” bet due to her consistency and world champ status, but i personally would push Amber. She has the 3A and can actually rotate (most of) her jumps consistently in competition. She’s also proven she can be reliable (I know worlds wasn’t perfect, but I think with a better training plan/scheduling, she can be peaked mentally and physically for the big moment). I think Amber will have learned a TON from this season on how to win and be consistent, and she can now apply what she’s learned to the next season and really have the potential to give Petrosyan a run for her money in Milan.

 

[gmyers]

Good flow on the landing is rewarded in GOE.

Control on the landing with a special position that's more difficult than standard landing position can be rewarded in GOE.

It is not easier to raise the leg on a held landing edge than to hold a low leg on a controlled landing edge. Both can be rewarded for the quality of the edge, but adding a variation is generally an upgrade not a downgrade.

What's penalized/not rewarded is NOT holding the landing. I.e., a landing edge that covers inches rather than feet before the free foot steps on the ice.



Judges are not paid. They are volunteers. Their expenses are paid and they are treated well when they are at competitions, maybe some gifts, but they do not receive a salary from the ISU or other hosting organizations.


Agreed.

But you can’t do too much glide and flow because you need to transition in and out of jumps!

You're the one who started out by stating "the judges don't judge good enough." My position is they judge just fine but the spectators are deluding themselves they're legends in their own minds - and know better than the "stupid judges" since they didn't score their pet skater high enough.

A skater comes down on the ice and assessed for speed, flow, and good running edge out of the jump. Newsflash: That's why some skaters get high GOE and some do not. This is a landing and an exit. If a poor skater can't do any of that, they just throw their leg up in the air to cover the flaws. A particular coach from a particular country teaches that rubbish to her girls. What's not to understand here? I simply call it dirty camouflage to cover up weak skills.

Doing a high leg extension is a way to be doing something with one leg while the other leg is of course still on the ice. So if you are doing lots of transitions into a jump and then you land you turn and do a high leg extension while the other leg is gliding rather than do the move where you land and just glide with your arms extended and the leg is is parallel to the ice. Wouldn’t you rather for good transitions score and goe turn and and do a high leg extension or even not turn but stay moving backwards but rather than have your leg parallel to lice going much higher?

Having a height limit on free leg on landing is really going too far!! lol!

 

[Zora]

I think Petrosian will easily win. She and her team will make sure she stays in "quad shape" until the Olympics. Even if she makes mistakes - Sakamoto ist also prone to mistakes and the judges have already shown this season, that they aren't willing to score her generously anymore once another contender steps up. Her PCS have already dropped at Worlds. Alysa Liu is also more likely than Petrosian to underrotate some jumps. Amber Glenn isn't the most reliable skater.
Petrosian is also a very expressive and dynamic skater, the judges will love her.

 

[Mathman]

But you can’t do too much glide and flow because you need to transition in and out of jumps.

I think that this is the main issue. The IJS rewards busy work more than it rewards secure flowing edges.

 

[Mathman]

Who knows, maybe the Oly podium will be Petrosyan, Young You with a restored 3A, and healthy Loena finally throwing down clean programs when it counts.

I am hoping for a skate of a lifetime from Nina Pinzarrone or Niina Petrokina ( he 7th and 8th best skaters in the world this year). Plus, I am super interested in seeing what Anastasia Gubanova can deliver at the qualifying event.

What would really be a boon to the sport is if the gold medalist wins by knocking it out of the park so that the audience leaves the arena cheering, "Wow, did you see that! " Instead of." Grr, she would have won if she hadn't got called for a bogus q. "

 

[Mathman]

I think Petrosian will easily win. She and her team will make sure she stays in "quad shape" until the Olympics.

I halfway agree with this, which I think is the thrust of the Hersh article. If Adeliia lands all her big jumps without giving back any points on other elements, that will be too big a math gap for anyone to overcome.

However, quad shape or not, anything can happen on the day.

 

[Arigato]

While isu abolished transitions as a separate category it was all folded into composition! The idea that after a jump you can just glide and flow is still not accepted and while demean the leg extensions they are demanded for good comp score

My post had nothing to do with transitions. Jumps are scored poorly for GOE when they lack a great running edge out.

You're going to see a 4T+3T where there is no running edge at all at the end. Zero. Running edges out of jumps matter. Every. Single. Time. My GOE for Adam was easily under 1.0 when I watched the event and the judges gave him 0.54 which was expected. It illustrates the point. I'm not using Adam because I don't like his skating, I'm using Adam because I do. No running edge out of a jump is something easily observed - no matter who is doing it.

Time stamped for the jump combo. Hit play.

 

[4everchan]

If this is "world class" to you, we differ. Greatly.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Too much prep.
Too much thought.
Too much insecurity.

I expected something better with all the praise about her.

I find her stiff and not particularly performing to anything in her program. Not the best talented skater Tut's team has raised in the last decade for sure.

 

[gmyers]

My post had nothing to do with transitions. Jumps are scored poorly for GOE when they lack a great running edge out.

You're going to see a 4T+3T where there is no running edge at all at the end. Zero. Running edges out of jumps matter. Every. Single. Time. My GOE for Adam was easily under 1.0 when I watched the event and the judges gave him 0.54 which was expected. It illustrates the point. I'm not using Adam because I don't like his skating, I'm using Adam because I do. No running edge out of a jump is something easily observed - no matter who is doing it.

Time stamped for the jump combo. Hit play.

The fact that your post doesn’t mention transitions or composition is the main issue. You must mention transitions because running edge can conflict with the constant movement demanded! What was called out earlier in the thread. How many seconds do you want before skater goes into a mandatory transition for good scores. I was just watching Carolina kostner at some worlds before she retired and even she had to move directly into transitions because she had to. Because i associate her with all the standards of the ideal. Just like perfect long lutz entries are totally out so are landing running edges! We are almost getting close to landing in bielman position into spiral!

 

[gmyers]

I expected something better with all the praise about her.

I find her stiff and not particularly performing to anything in her program. Not the best talented skater Tut's team has raised in the last decade for sure.

Who is praising her as a great artist? She has ultra c and checks the pcs boxes.

 

[TallyT]

Petrosian is also a very expressive and dynamic skater, the judges will love her.

Don't agree with the former (she's not bad just... there's little there there) and the latter will have to wait till the qualifier for us to see. They are unlikely to revert to the shower of not always deserved candies her predecessors got.

Not the best talented skater Tut's team has raised in the last decade for sure.

None of them were in retrospect as good as everyone gushed at the time and the ISU and judges desperately chased to Save Our Sport (weren't the first and only, won't be the last): they were technowhizzy yes, and like a trendy line of merch that sold like hotcakes.

JMO, of course Unless she melts under pressure, I think she's odd on but it's a long time till that precious gold comes a'calling.

 

[4everchan]

Don't agree with the former (she's not bad just... there's little there there) and the latter will have to wait till the qualifier for us to see. They are unlikely to revert to the shower of not always deserved candies her predecessors got.


None of them were in retrospect as good as everyone gushed at the time and the ISU and judges desperately chased to Save Our Sport (weren't the first and only, won't be the last): they were technowhizzy yes, and like a trendy line of merch that sold like hotcakes.

JMO, of course Unless she melts under pressure, I think she's odd on but it's a long time till that precious gold comes a'calling.

sure but medvedeva had personality... kostornaia was really nice to watch for a while... lip charmed the world with her schindler's list...

adelia is bland... very bland.

 

[4everchan]

Who is praising her as a great artist? She has ultra c and checks the pcs boxes.

some have her with the gold medal around her neck already

 

[TallyT]

adelia is bland... very bland.

As was Shcherbakova, except for her exaggerated die-away airs and it didn't stop her getting WC and OGM.