2025 JGP Ankara Pairs Free Skate

[Sackie]

The Can JR Pairs all need to work some on their spins and their Death Spirals. Also someone needs to talk to the CAN Judges and remind them it is OK to mark your own teams high when they deserve it. Judges from other countries do it but not the CAN judges. Some of the lowest GOE and PCS came from the CAN Judge here.

 

[cocteautwin]

The Can JR Pairs all need to work some on their spins and their Death Spirals. Also someone needs to talk to the CAN Judges and remind them it is OK to mark your own teams high when they deserve it. Judges from other countries do it but not the CAN judges. Some of the lowest GOE and PCS came from the CAN Judge here.

Can that someone also talk to JPN judges? Japanese judge was the only one who put Minkyu over Sena in SP

 

[SnowWhite]

Not in real-time, but in slow-motion.
Did Ted say if they even reviewed the twist? I would guess so because of the levels, but if they did, they must have missed it even with slow-motion.

Mark said it was 'currently under review' when he started talking about it.

 

[debora]

I really like Debora & Lukas - they are just plagued by mistakes that if they can cure would enable them to move up quite a bit. They are very pleasing to watch. There is one lift that needs more work. Perhaps as they get more ice time, they will stabilize the problems. I find them enjoyable.

We never fail that lift in training… Unfortunately with a lack of confidence it’s very hard n we are really trying to work on that

 

[debora]

Debora Anna COHEN / Lukas VOCHOZKA (CZE)
The Mask of Zorro

3Tw2 Low catch
2FTh Fall
2A Fall
2T+combo
BoDs1
5RLiB Fall
2STh
3Li4
ChSq*
PCoSp4

Score: 58.72
Total: 97.69

I've been waiting for things to come together for these two, and unfortunately, I'll have to keep waiting. They have these elements in isolation, but as soon as they are in a program, things just start to fall apart ever so often. I hope they'll be able to show this program better next time around, because they deserve (and really need) it.

You are right. right now elements are good on their own. We have to work more on putting them together now. I mean we have been working on that, but we have to even more now. The worst problem now is a lack of confidence and it’s so much harder like that…

 

[debora]

It's second season waiting already.

We are doing our best. Unfortunately my mental health and confidence are very low right now and it’s very hard to perform when you don’t trust yourself.But we are training very hard every day for it to work out one day. While you’re just waiting like you said. Maybe you should think about what you write on the internet about kids that are trying their best. You don’t know what’s going on in their lives, how much they train and how much they try and how much they care. Anyway if you wait a bit longer you’ll see that we are capable of a very good result because we already did it before, so we can do it again, we just have to get out of these bad times. and PS: yes we love the ice very much that’s why we do what we love every day and train hard on and off the ice.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

The real problem for me is not even the call but the Base Value ....

remember why nobody is doing the quad throws and twists anymore.... it's because the ISU has lowered their BV after the 2018 games.

So... a quad twist level 1 is only 6.8 in BV... the triple is 5.1

Yeah, with the same raw GOE, the 4Tw being properly called would only add 2.14 points. That's not a lot, but again (even if currently unlikely), those two points could hypothetically make a difference in the JGPF qualification standings. I just also think elements should be called properly regardless, but especially when it could make a difference.

(Or later down the road, the difference in getting a GP spot or not, though that is some way off for Guo/Zhang)

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Just got to the end of the Pairs FS, and wanted to re-assure everybody that, when I refreshed the stream, the start of the broadcast is there.

Don't know what was going on earlier.

I'm going to eat now, but I'll watch what I missed (the Group 1 Warm-Up and the first two partnerships) after that.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

Yeah, with the same raw GOE, the 4Tw being properly called would only add 2.14 points. That's not a lot, but again (even if currently unlikely), those two points could hypothetically make a difference in the JGPF qualification standings. I just also think elements should be called properly regardless, but especially when it could make a difference.

(Or later down the road, the difference in getting a GP spot or not, though that is some way off for Guo/Zhang)

I just looked and the protocols were not revised... So, either the Chinese team didn't look/ask for review or either the tech panel didn't see a fourth rotation. I have not seen it either because i didn't use slo mo... but I would trust your judgment on this...

Do you think it's possible that they saw an over-rotated triple twist, not big enough to call it a quad and they didn't want to call it a downgraded quad twist ?

I mean... she goes very fast and she is on the lateral which makes it harder, at least for me, to see. I'd be curious to hear what the tech panel said about this and I actually trust them to be able to call a triple from a quad LOL It's not rocket science for them with the slo-mo...

I am waiting for someone to come up with an image by image gif of that quad twist... i mean so many people do that to show under-rotated jumps that were not called... it would be refreshing if someone did it for a quad that was called as a triple

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I just looked and the protocols were not revised... So, either the Chinese team didn't look/ask for review or either the tech panel didn't see a fourth rotation. I have not seen it either because i didn't use slo mo... but I would trust your judgment on this...

Do you think it's possible that they saw an over-rotated triple twist, not big enough to call it a quad and they didn't want to call it a downgraded quad twist ?

I mean... she goes very fast and she is on the lateral which makes it harder, at least for me, to see. I'd be curious to hear what the tech panel said about this and I actually trust them to be able to call a triple from a quad LOL It's not rocket science for them with the slo-mo...

I am waiting for someone to come up with an image by image gif of that quad twist... i mean so many people do that to show under-rotated jumps that were not called... it would be refreshing if someone did it for a quad that was called as a triple

At Euros 2020, the Men's Free Skate protocols were revised two days after, but I don't think that's likely to happen here. Apparently, skaters have to protest Data Operator input errors (like this) before the medal ceremony, so if it hasn't been changed by now, it probably won't be. Maybe they didn't notice or decided to save their efforts because it doesn't matter for the results here?

There's this series of screenshots on Twitter that might help:


From the stream, I would say it was at most a quarter short of rotation, so a downgrade shouldn't be in the cards here.

 

[4everchan]

At Euros 2020, the Men's Free Skate protocols were revised two days after, but I don't think that's likely to happen here. Apparently, skaters have to protest Data Operator input errors (like this) before the medal ceremony, so if it hasn't been changed by now, it probably won't be. Maybe they didn't notice or decided to save their efforts because it doesn't matter for the results here?

There's this series of screenshots on Twitter that might help:


From the stream, I would say it was at most a quarter short of rotation, so a downgrade shouldn't be in the cards here.

thanks... I guess they ddin't notice because they were quite far away... if they had been close, they may have looked at the protocols...

thanks for the twitter thingie but i cannot really see anything on there that would inform me. I guess at some point i should just back to the stream and view it at very low speed... but you know what, I will try to see it at their next event I trust your call on this but it's very surprising to me that a tech panel would miss it. I mean, this is not ice dance

 

[4everchan]

BTW i dont do X but i love her handle twistandtwizzle

 

[Jumping_Bean]

thanks... I guess they ddin't notice because they were quite far away... if they had been close, they may have looked at the protocols...

thanks for the twitter thingie but i cannot really see anything on there that would inform me. I guess at some point i should just back to the stream and view it at very low speed... but you know what, I will try to see it at their next event I trust your call on this but it's very surprising to me that a tech panel would miss it. I mean, this is not ice dance

Or maybe half of us, including Mark, are just going through psychosis and have lost our ability to count. That's also possible.
I just know they've definitely done a 4Tw last season at a (semi-)domestic competition, and this twist looks like it has four rotations to me. The catch was much lower than in the Short despite the actual height of the twist not looking lower, but I don't even know anymore.

 

[4everchan]

We are doing our best. Unfortunately my mental health and confidence are very low right now and it’s very hard to perform when you don’t trust yourself.But we are training very hard every day for it to work out one day. While you’re just waiting like you said. Maybe you should think about what you write on the internet about kids that are trying their best. You don’t know what’s going on in their lives, how much they train and how much they try and how much they care. Anyway if you wait a bit longer you’ll see that we are capable of a very good result because we already did it before, so we can do it again, we just have to get out of these bad times. and PS: yes we love the ice very much that’s why we do what we love every day and train hard on and off the ice.

Support ! You will get there. I love pairs, and I think that it's one of the craziest sports. You have to love flying !!! Confidence will come, step by step. Hang in there. Again, all my support !

 

[4everchan]

Or maybe half of us, including Mark, are just going through psychosis and have lost our ability to count. That's also possible.
I just know they've definitely done a 4Tw last season at a (semi-)domestic competition, and this twist looks like it has four rotations to me. The catch was much lower than in the Short despite the actual height of the twist not looking lower, but I don't even know anymore.

Well, this post made my day. I have been confused about this twist for the last few hours. Glad to know that I am not alone LOL

 

[Jumping_Bean]

You are right. right now elements are good on their own. We have to work more on putting them together now. I mean we have been working on that, but we have to even more now. The worst problem now is a lack of confidence and it’s so much harder like that…

We are doing our best. Unfortunately my mental health and confidence are very low right now and it’s very hard to perform when you don’t trust yourself.But we are training very hard every day for it to work out one day. While you’re just waiting like you said. Maybe you should think about what you write on the internet about kids that are trying their best. You don’t know what’s going on in their lives, how much they train and how much they try and how much they care. Anyway if you wait a bit longer you’ll see that we are capable of a very good result because we already did it before, so we can do it again, we just have to get out of these bad times. and PS: yes we love the ice very much that’s why we do what we love every day and train hard on and off the ice.

Please know that nobody here means any harm with their comments. When people express their sadness and frustration about a skate that went badly, it is never meant towards the skater but on behalf of them. We all understand how much work goes into every single performance and want all skaters to succeed, especially if we can see how much promise they have, like you and your partnership.

I also feel like you are putting a lot of the blame on yourself. I am not saying you should put more blame on your partner, but you are in this together. Everything you do, good or bad, is a collaborative effort, and neither partner should shoulder the majority of the blame. I understand that this is very difficult, especially when you are already struggling with confidence, but it's important to remember. It is clear to all of us that your difficulties here were not the result of a lack of practice or will to succeed, but due to nerves and a lack of confidence. I hope you have access to good mental health services, as any professional athlete should have (I know not all do), and regardless of your specific situation, I would always recommend limiting social media access as a teen and public-facing person (not really by choice in your case), especially in times of emotional turmoil. I'm not a mental health professional, so I can't give much specific advice, but just send you my positive wishes, because as I said, you deserve to have a (well, many) skate(s) you can be happy with and proud of.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

thanks for the twitter thingie but i cannot really see anything on there that would inform me. I guess at some point i should just back to the stream and view it at very low speed... but you know what, I will try to see it at their next event

Decided to give it a try and cut some clips at 0.1x of the speed (just to make it as easy to count the rotations as possible):

Short program:

Rui GUO_Yiwen ZHANG_3Tw_SP hosted at ImgBB

Image Rui GUO_Yiwen ZHANG_3Tw_SP in the M.'s images album

ibb.co

Free Skate:

Rui GUO_Yiwen ZHANG_Tw_FS hosted at ImgBB

Image Rui GUO_Yiwen ZHANG_Tw_FS in the M.'s images album

ibb.co

I wanted to put in freeze frames whenever one rotation was completed, but honestly, I discovered that it's actually harder to keep track of twist rotations through a series of frames than in motion, especially with this camera angle and video quality.

(Didn't we use to be able to embed images uploaded to Imgbb?)

 

[CoyoteChris]

Decided to give it a try and cut some clips at 0.1x of the speed (just to make it as easy to count the rotations as possible):

Short program:

Rui GUO_Yiwen ZHANG_3Tw_SP hosted at ImgBB

Image Rui GUO_Yiwen ZHANG_3Tw_SP in the M.'s images album

ibb.co

Free Skate:

Rui GUO_Yiwen ZHANG_Tw_FS hosted at ImgBB

Image Rui GUO_Yiwen ZHANG_Tw_FS in the M.'s images album

ibb.co

I wanted to put in freeze frames whenever one rotation was completed, but honestly, I discovered that it's actually harder to keep track of twist rotations through a series of frames than in motion, especially with this camera angle and video quality.

(Didn't we use to be able to embed images uploaded to Imgbb?)

Thank you. Ted did slow mo over the air. He and Mark seem convinced. I was convinced. But your slow mo makes this a quad for sure. If someone wants to call it a quarter under, fine. I did not see that. But I will take your word for it. Still a quad. The fact that it is still in the system as a triple Throws a very bad light on the ISU and skating in general. If the entire tech panel and the judging panel couldnt see that and at least call for a review, then skating has a very big problem. I hope Ted is correct that they are working on technology to deal with landing and take off edges. They need that. It is a mystery why Team China did not protest. At the VERY LEAST I want to see a letter of apology to Team China. The system failed...big time. That or the ISU should issue its own supper slow mo using their own youtube vid to prove their point that this was a triple. Not doing either shows an extreame lack of character and transparency. What if this has been the Olys?????? Badly done, ISU...

 

[4everchan]

jackie wong and guest (no idea who it is) on the quad twist.



He is wrong though... The Tech Panel did review it as Mark said. Twists are most often reviewed like most leveled elements.

 

[4everchan]

(and now, I am feeling dumb because I didn't see it live LOL.) and apparently, it was obvious to everyone online... but not to me,... nor to the TP lol