The role of fans in shaping skaters’ careers

[Arigato]

^ How very interesting. I love this board. I learn something new (in this case something about the Latvian language) every time I come here.

The original meaning of "Stan" was actually, I believe, quite dark. A "stalker fan" suggests someone so far around the bend that he has fantasies of abducting or assaulting the object of his affection, sort of like, "If I can't have you nobody can."

So I looked up to see if there was such a term specifically for figure skaters. Google AI overview informed me that "Skater Stlalker" meant a "back camel spin with a back handspring." (?) Presumably the skater must "stalk" the move the wayTodd Eldredge used to stalk the triple Axel.

Then it went on to mention the "stalker skate," a species of fish, and to give references to the 1991 arrest of a pchychopath who was convicted of aggressively and dangerously stalking Katarina Witt.

Added in proof: By the way, I too was a huge Wittgenstein fan back in those halcyon days of my misspent youth.

Ah, those. A fan scaled the wall and climbed into my mother's home through the window when she was a professional singer. He tried to throw her down the stairs. And while I'm on the topic, there is a guy who a bunch of girls were "stanning" in a very big way. He is a member of a musical group. When he fell in love and announced he was getting married, all hell broke loose. They physically protested and demanded he be thrown out of the group for "betraying" them. Many fans engage in what is called a "parasocial relationship." Sports fandoms can have individuals who exhibit the same behavior.

 

[Magill]

Did you ask all of them? A bit of a double standard there.

I was referring to my experience and not to he whole humanity, so yes, I did. I was talking about my experience with people I met, talked to, worked with.

 

[Magill]

Ah, those. A fan scaled the wall and climbed into my mother's home through the window when she was a professional singer. He tried to throw her down the stairs. And while I'm on the topic, there is a guy who a bunch of girls were "stanning" in a very big way. He is a member of a musical group. When he fell in love and announced he was getting married, all hell broke loose. They physically protested and demanded he be thrown out of the group for "betraying" them. Many fans engage in what is called a "parasocial relationship." Sports fandoms can have individuals who exhibit the same behavior.

Now. This is a very different topic.
John Lennon was shot and killed by someone who called himself his fan.
Your mother was attacked at her home by someone who called themselves her fan and tried to throw her down the stairs.
Many stars and celebrities were stalked to utmost fear by people calling themselves their fans.
Some people were sending death threats to some people because they called themselves fans of some other people (and no, no fandom has an exclusive right in or out of this group, fans of various skaters and non-skaters included).
All these things are scary, horrible, frightening and should never happen. But IMO these people are not fans, or at least this is not why they are doing these acts. They are doing it because they are disturbed for unrelated reasons, public people are easy targets, and calling yourself a "fan", a "betrayed fan" or a "fan of a wronged one" gives you a high moral ground to abuse. If you're looking for a reason, you'll always find one. If you're looking for a target, you'll always find one. In my opinion, if these people did not find a justification in fandom, they would find in in something else and attack a different victim. Why - is a very different topic.
But I understand now why you might be allergic to fandoms and even to the very word "fan". Thank you for sharing this here as I get you now. Without this info, I would have never guessed and I was completely confused.

 

[Arigato]

Your mother was attacked at her home by someone who called themselves her fan and tried to throw her down the stairs.

We laughed about it when my mother was still alive because the guy was a nut. It happened in her 20's. Ancient history, kiddo. The only effect it had on me was to illicit laughter. You might not think a crazy guy is funny, but we sure did. Different people have different reactions. That's the problem here - whether it's me or an entire forum, you habitually project your own personal reactions to situations as if everyone else would actually react similar to you. That's illogical. Proclaiming in a post no one in the forum could be objective about figure skating, simply because you can't be objective about it was a prime example. I was glad your post was called out by someone, as it should have been.

You've thrown everything including the kitchen sink into this thread but the truth is, fandoms can indeed be terribly toxic. If you don't want to acknowledge how obsessive many skater's fans can get, that's your choice. But sweeping the problem under the rug and suddenly proclaiming they aren't really a fan if they do something negative is disingenuous. I'm going to repost:

“Fan” is an abbreviated form of the word, “fanatic,” which has its roots in the Latin word fanaticus. In its most literal sense, fanaticus meant simply “of or belonging to the temple, a temple servant, a devotee,” but it quickly assumed more negative connotations, “of persons inspired by orgiastic rites and enthusiastic frenzy” (Oxford Latin Dictionary). As it evolved, the term “fanatic” moved from a reference to excessive forms of religious worship to any “excessive and mistaken enthusiasm,” often evoked in criticism to opposing political beliefs, and then, more generally, to madness, “such as might result from possession by a deity or demon” (Oxford English Dictionary). Its abbreviated form, “fan,” first appeared in the late nineteenth century in journalistic accounts describing fans of professional sports and popular theater, and in both cases these fans were seen as having an inappropriate attachment [...]

Source: nyupress.org

If you don't like it, you can always hide your eyes.

 

[TallyT]

In fact, there is a specific word "stan" (from a popular song with the same name about a fan who committed suicide) to describe an obsessed fan/acting like an obsessed fan. It may be not known widely, but it stuck within the cluster of bilingual Latvians (Latvian&English speakers) because it sounds surprisingly similar to the Latvian verb "stenēt" ("to groan", mostly from excessive effort or pleasure). As you can imagine, it easily produced bilingual pun material which took it rather far from the sad origin of the word. It was a bit of a trend on Latvian Twitter (back when it was Twitter and a good place to communicate) and, up to this day, it's not unusual to meet bilingual Latvians who say "stan" rather than "fan" or use the word in some funny or extravagant manner, i.e., a college student referring to himself as a "Ludwig Wittgenstein stan"

Oooh, etymology! Thank you - I know and sometimes use the word stan (it is also now a verb, as in 'she stans Jimin/Daniel Radcliffe/whoever is next') but I never thought of chasing up its origin.

That's the problem here - whether it's me or an entire forum, you habitually project your own personal reactions to situations as if everyone else would actually react similar to you.

Why are you being so hostile when you are doing the same thing?

Proclaiming in a post no one in the forum could be objective about figure skating, simply because you can't be objective about it was a prime example. I was glad your post was called out by someone, as it should have been.

@Magill was not wrong; anything that engages our emotions has an element of subjectivity, that's a given. The question is how much can a person put aside subjectivity and the answer is never entirely (me and all). You are being highly subjective yourself in attacking the idea that fandom can be a good place: I have been in fandom small and large for coming up way too many years and yes, there's been wildly toxic and dark areas (not so many in my own, because I like to paddle in the shallows) but it's been for the most part very very positive and most of the fans wonderful people.

There is toxicity everywhere in life. Neither @Magill nor I nor anyone else in this thread has denied that there is a fringe of it in skating and every other fandom (many of whom seem to be looking for something that has nothing to do with the people they are following, otherwise they would not attack the latter so unobjectively when things go wrong) and the larger the fan base, the louder the fringe. But every skater, every sports star, every actor, every performer, has wonderful fans as well. The Russian wunderkind had and have some terrifying followers on Russian boards and tiktok - that doesn't mean that the majority of young girls and others who look up to and follow them are 'fanatics'.

Oh, and your final repeat about the etymology of fan? One thing about etymology and the history of words (which is something I adore) - meanings change. Meanings vanish into obscurity or yes, meaninglessness. Otherwise, when I describe Alysa or Rion as 'nice' it would be a massive insult.

 

[Mathman]

I love etymology. too. I like the "possessed by demons" version the best. If you are possessed by Barry Manilow demons you are a "Maniloonie."

 

[Arigato]

Why are you being so hostile when you are doing the same thing?

Hostile? I think all of this is rather amusing. Next thing ya know, someone will invoke J. F. Kennedy being shot as a reason for posting about fandoms.

anything that engages our emotions has an element of subjectivity, that's a given.

Do all people with skates on their feet automatically engage a person's emotions? I have little problem handing out GOE on jumps that nearly match the judges. There is criteria set forth after all, and once learned it can be applied with ease.

The question is how much can a person put aside subjectivity and the answer is never entirely (me and all). You are being highly subjective yourself in attacking the idea that fandom can be a good place: I have been in fandom small and large for coming up years and yes, there's been wildly toxic and dark areas (not so many in my own, because I like to paddle in the shallows) it's been for the most part very very positive and most of the fans wonderful people.

If you refer back to my original post, I mentioned "too much gumdrops and roses." If posting a contrarian viewpoint is your idea of attacking, so be it. I happen to enjoy spirited debate, not echo chambers.

But every skater, every sports star, every actor, every performer, has wonderful fans as well.

If I watch a few tennis players, am I automatically their fan? I think not. And that is what is at the heart of my original post as well as why I posted the etymology of the word. Some are going to great lengths to avoid that etymology.

The Russian wunderkind had and have some terrifying followers on Russian boards and tiktok - that doesn't mean that the majority of young girls and others who look up to and follow them are 'fanatics'.

No idea who you are referring to.

Oh, and your final repeat about the etymology of fan? One thing about etymology and the history of words (which is something I adore) - meanings change. Meanings vanish into obscurity or yes, meaninglessness. Otherwise, when I describe Alysa or Rion as 'nice' it would be a massive insult.

I didn't realize so many people didn't know fan was shorthand for fanatic. While that may come across as a negative to some, there are plenty of people who self-describe as a fanatic, and wear it as a badge of honor. Especially in sports. Food for thought.

 

[Magill]

I like the word egregious. I wonder if I used it now would it be understood in its modern or its Roman meaning, lol. Would the person feel complimented or quite to the contrary? And if a person felt insulted, could I just make away from it by referring them to the Latin dictionary and its original meaning? And would their response be objective or subjective? And who is to decide that? Vox populi vox dei, or the philosophers are the vessels of wisdom? So many questions... good night, everyone.

 

[Mathman]

I like the word egregious.

OK, you made me look it up.

Egregious. Definition 1. Outstandingly bad.

Definition 2. (archaic) Outstandingly good.

Etymolgy: from Latin meaning "out of the ordinary."

Use in sentence. Michelle Kwan's performance at 1997 U,S. Nationals was egregious, but her performance at 1998 Nationals was egregious.

 

[Magill]

OK, you made me look it up.

Egregious. Definition 1. Outstandingly bad.

Definition 2. (archaic) Outstandingly good.

Etymolgy: from Latin meaning "out of the ordinary."

Use in sentence. Michelle Kwan's performance at 1997 U,S. Nationals was egregious, but her performance at 1998 Nationals was egregious.

I'll tell you a secret Mathman! I'm old enough. I learnt Latin

 

[Mathman]

I'll tell you a secret Mathman! I'm old enough. I learnt Latin .

I'm, older yet. When I was in high school Latin was required.

 

[Magill]

I'm, older yet. When I was in high school Latin was required.

Same here. Was required in certain streams, and the one I was in was eligible
. Galia est omnis divisa in partes tres quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum...

 

[TallyT]

Back to the subject at hand... there's also the matter of a loyal and decent-sized fan base being able to hold a skater up and help them keep going when judging seems to be casting them aside. I think someone mentioned Shoma during his bad patch. There's also Jason, who had the misfortune to be an artistry/skills master at a time when being able to do multiple quads was deemed to be all the artistry needed and scores, including ridiculous PCS, reflected that; his brand of gorgeous skating and personal character gave him avenues for shows and income (in the US and Japan) that probably helped him keep on keeping on until he hit this sunlit time with TCC and being needed by his fed. There's also Kazuki whose effervescent appeal and hard work keeps him high profile and attractive to fans and sponsors when his whole career has been overshadowed by this or that Japanese uberstar. Maybe both of them would still be here and in contention without that support but (especially during times of official dearth of support) it's arguable...

 

[Magill]

Back to the subject at hand... there's also the matter of a loyal and decent-sized fan base being able to hold a skater up and help them keep going when judging seems to be casting them aside. I think someone mentioned Shoma during his bad patch. There's also Jason, who had the misfortune to be an artistry/skills master at a time when being able to do multiple quads was deemed to be all the artistry needed and scores, including ridiculous PCS, reflected that; his brand of gorgeous skating and personal character gave him avenues for shows and income (in the US and Japan) that probably helped him keep going until he hit this sunlit time of being needed by his fed. There's also Kazuki whose effervescent appeal and hard work keeps him high profile and attractive to fans and sponsors when his whole career has been overshadowed by this or that Japanese uberstar.

That's very true. When fans impact on skaters'careers is mentioned it always makes me think back to Loena Hendrickx who went crowdfunding for her international assignments originally and ended up on the Worlds podium. I mean this was some really well invested money indeed
Leona's story is worth a movie!!
And it is worth mentioning here Deniss Vasiljevs is crowdfunding right now for his Olympic season - Latvian fed apparently has some financial problems which are in the way.

 

[Arigato]

Anyone could help out Loena. All you had to do was hear what was going on to help out. The same is true for Deniss. Anyone can hit the funding page without tattooing the word "fan "on their buttocks in red ink. lol. As for Shoma, the person who I noticed checking on him at Grenoble was Raf.

 

[Mathman]

Anyone could help out Loena.

That's quite true, However someone who particularly enjoys her skating is more likely to do so than is the random philanthropist, I would think.

 

[Wynter]

That's quite true, However someone who particularly enjoys her skating is more likely to do so than is the random philanthropist, I would think.

That's absolutely true. The fact that anyone could doesn’t mean that anyone would.

 

[rabidline]

Anyone could help out Loena. All you had to do was hear what was going on to help out. The same is true for Deniss. Anyone can hit the funding page without tattooing the word "fan "on their buttocks in red ink. lol. As for Shoma, the person who I noticed checking on him at Grenoble was Raf.

That's actually what I meant from the examples I put here. Anyone can do something good for the skaters regardless of whether you identify as a fan or not. Anyone can do good. It's up to the skater themselves and the team that they have, to do what they can.

Shoma's example sticks with me because it really was everything happening at once. Yes, he had dedicated fans travelling to support him in that competition, but there were also casual audience, people who went to the GP because it was affordable and a nice way to spend the day and didn't know Shoma at all, who joined in the applause and actually comfort Shoma's fans who were sad. But Shoma had to do the rest himself- yes the very vocal support at the right time helped him realize that he wanted to continue skating, but he had to make the calls- he had to get himself to a place where he can do that, and he did that. No fans can help with that. Shoma doesn't even listen to his fans most of the time. But the one time he needed their support, it counted.

And well- I'm not a Piper/Paul dedicated superfan. I barely post about them, I don't interact with them on social media as a fan, and most of the time I chatted about their skating is with my friend. But we don't have to be a Piper/Paul dedicated superfan who are inspired by who they are as people, to share their good skating. That their team found it and found happiness in seeing the positive feedback, and inspiration enough to choose it as their competitive program, that's on them to decide. I know other fans of theirs didn't like that they chose that program, and some fans gave negative comments when it's skated in competitions. But that's their decision.

I think the moment a fan thinks they have the responsibility to shape a competitive skater's career, in any way or form, that's where everything goes awry. A skater has their own life, a fan has their own life. If a fan can help, through support, or through letters, through financial support, that should be made by the fan with considerations of their own life. And especially in competitions, a fan's support cannot stand in as the replacement of the judges, the technical panel, or the coaches. These are sportsmen and sportswomen who choose to do this judged sport with its flaws and subjectivity- they know the stakes better for them than a fan can ever do.

Personally as a fan, I don't have the means to donate to every gofundme or request for financial support I see. I have my own life. I have to draw the boundaries, I support the skaters to express themselves on competition ice, but I am not responsible for the continuity of the careers of skaters I find entertaining or lovely to watch. Even with my favorites who turned professional, I am not responsible for their success in the entertainment industry. They have to make their own way out there, and I have to make my own way here.

That's the thing that we can do, whether we identify as a fan or not. Try to do good while enjoying the sport and being in the community. Because we just don't know. Maybe our good deed is the thing that decides a turn in their career. Maybe it's just a good deed. There is no way to know.

 

[noskates]

Unfortunately and very sadly, when you're a public figure you basically give up your privacy to a certain extent. And I think that's been more apparent since the dawn of the internet where you can find out just about anything about anybody with the click of a few keys. So and so is having dinner at a restaurant and several people video it, put it out on the internet and the next thing you know there's a crowd of people waiting to see them. Years ago there was no way to communicate this kind of intrusion. The sense of a skater "belonging" to their fans is ludicrous. The only thing a skater owes to the fans is when they're on the ice competing. Their private lives, who they are dating, where they go to school, how often they practice, yada! yada! yada! really isn't any business of any fan. If they choose to have a meet and greet or walk on the concourse and meet people - that's THEIR choice. If a person chooses to donate to their training, etc. it should be done with no strings attached in my opinion. I have several skaters who I really, really like but I would never impose upon them for a picture or an autograph or a chat - unless they put themselves forth to do that And what I think promotes a skater is their skating!!

 

[TallyT]

That's quite true, However someone who particularly enjoys her skating is more likely to do so than is the random philanthropist, I would think.

Here in Australia the cricket team and by extension world is involved in raising funds and awareness for breast cancer research and support, the wearing of pink uniforms on third day of the New Year's Test every year, the 'pink stumps' days etc. It comes from a foundation in memory of cricketer Glenn McGrath's late wife Jane. Is it likely that cricket fans notice and contribute more? Probably. Do the beneficiaries care that some of the benefits are not from abstruse altruism but from sportslovers' attachment? Probably not, any more than the people of the Noto district cared that the show Yuzu, Satoko and others put on, raising fifty million yen, attracted a great deal of that through fans (though much of Japan seem to be his fans these days) or that the cardboard standees of him they use to attract visitors and tourists may also attract fans as well as the general Japanese public. They express gratitude wherever and for whatever reasons help comes.

Some people do charitable works for religious reasons, for pretty much every faith. Does that make the recipients obliged to be more or less grateful for the help?