Just sneaking in here to say that I'm so happy I watched the women's replay to see Rino skate. I know she's not consistent but when she's on she's one of the most beautiful skaters out there. The fact that she gets 7s in skating skills is ridiculous to me. I would watch her or Yuma even if they fell on every jump.
2025 Cup of China
- Thread starter gsk8
- Start date
I wanted to clarify one thing you said. I agree a rotation starts when the skater initiates the it. But, the rotation ends when any part of the skate, including the toepick, first touches the ice. Not when the blade is fully down, as in your pictures. Do we agree on that?
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2015
On the whole, the SP were very enjoyable to watch. The pairs competition was particularly wonderful. The Georgians deserve every point in GOE they get. I personally would have them lower or the Italians higher in PCS, but she, at least, is a good performer and has good SS. The Italian team aren't always my favorites but this SP was great. It might be my favorite SP among the pairs .I thought they deserved comparatively higher PCS.
Sui/ Han were better than expected. He landed the 3T, she didn't. I'm hoping they do well in the FS but I suspect more errors will creep in.
Also loved M/ P, she's such a good pairs skater. They need to figure out their death spiral and spin. They would be over 70 with better GOE on the spin and a higher level death spiral. Hocke/Kunkel always seem better to me than their scores would suggest. I've never seen them live. Are they slow?
So happy for Shun! If he holds it together in the FS, this will definitely cement his place as the current second Japanese man. I think he's an underappreciated skater. He does everything ( except spin) so well. I don't understand how he's basically tying in PCS with Grassl and Shaidorov both of whom ( especially Shaidorov ) can barely skate on an edge and have pretty empty choreo. Or even with Sota who has nice SS but whose program is basically just nice crossovers into jumps. PCS judging continues to confound me. The men's competition was enjoyable, although messy, the technical calling was strange. I wonder how Daniel Grassl gets away with all those URs. I think he must be very strategic about where he jumps to avoid scrutiny. Most technical panels don't call what appear to me to be clear URs. Happy Boyang did well in front of a home crowd.
The women's competition was a great watch. They technical panel seemingly didn't call anyone's jumps in the first group. Only to wake up a bit in the second. Still lenient but they did give several Qs and they gave Hana URs. Strange. Rinka's PCS definitely benefited from landing the 3A. Like Rinka but she's not doing a lot of choreography. Enjoyed Amber and Alysa. Gubanova is a pleasant skater even if her program is not great. Rino should get 9s in SS and here she also performed well so her overall PCS should also be higher. Her jumps were under but they didn't call anyone in her group.
I quite like the concept of C/B RD. They just need more runthroughs. It makes them stand out. I also liked G/ P. That was great choreo such a pity about the fall. Z/K did great. Happy for them. The program is just ok. Love S/D but this RD just doesn't work and wasn't well performed. They will move up in the FD, I think.
Sui/ Han were better than expected. He landed the 3T, she didn't. I'm hoping they do well in the FS but I suspect more errors will creep in.
Also loved M/ P, she's such a good pairs skater. They need to figure out their death spiral and spin. They would be over 70 with better GOE on the spin and a higher level death spiral. Hocke/Kunkel always seem better to me than their scores would suggest. I've never seen them live. Are they slow?
So happy for Shun! If he holds it together in the FS, this will definitely cement his place as the current second Japanese man. I think he's an underappreciated skater. He does everything ( except spin) so well. I don't understand how he's basically tying in PCS with Grassl and Shaidorov both of whom ( especially Shaidorov ) can barely skate on an edge and have pretty empty choreo. Or even with Sota who has nice SS but whose program is basically just nice crossovers into jumps. PCS judging continues to confound me. The men's competition was enjoyable, although messy, the technical calling was strange. I wonder how Daniel Grassl gets away with all those URs. I think he must be very strategic about where he jumps to avoid scrutiny. Most technical panels don't call what appear to me to be clear URs. Happy Boyang did well in front of a home crowd.
The women's competition was a great watch. They technical panel seemingly didn't call anyone's jumps in the first group. Only to wake up a bit in the second. Still lenient but they did give several Qs and they gave Hana URs. Strange. Rinka's PCS definitely benefited from landing the 3A. Like Rinka but she's not doing a lot of choreography. Enjoyed Amber and Alysa. Gubanova is a pleasant skater even if her program is not great. Rino should get 9s in SS and here she also performed well so her overall PCS should also be higher. Her jumps were under but they didn't call anyone in her group.
I quite like the concept of C/B RD. They just need more runthroughs. It makes them stand out. I also liked G/ P. That was great choreo such a pity about the fall. Z/K did great. Happy for them. The program is just ok. Love S/D but this RD just doesn't work and wasn't well performed. They will move up in the FD, I think.
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- Joined
- Aug 8, 2023
Nah I dont agree. If toe-pick quarters get called then basically nobody is clean.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think that there is still some feeling that we should consider weight-bearing. Mirai Nagasu was an example of a skater who "reached down" on her jump landings and touched the ice with her toe-pick an instant before any significant amount of weight was borne by the blade. (Possibly Mao Asada, too.)
People who are into making precise measurements have even suggested that rotations could be measured by attaching sensors to the blades that would keep track of this.
I think that judging, like skating itself, still has a lot of "art" in it, along with the science. To me, this is not necessarily a bad thing.
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Ok. Im just trying clarify. So the toepick transition to the blade is considered part of the in air rotation then? Is that correct?
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2023
Its nuanced, I suppose. The thing is, the weight usually still hasn't transferred at all to the ground at that point, and its more an artifact of the foot position held from the take-off where the toe-pick will always strike early. Almost every girl touches on the quarter with the pick. I mostly look at where the blade lands—where the weight transfer has occurred. This is what I mean though, that nobody can agree on what constitutes proper rotation. It must be standardized somehow.
Ok. Thanks. Thats what confused me. Ive been noticing the last few years that Higuchi gets called alot the moment her toepick hits when many others dont. I thought the rule was more cut and dry. I guess not.
Just watched all of the RD. I am not going to enjoy this segment of the competition much this year, I don't think. For me, there was exactly one program that I would want to watch again from the whole darn thing, and that was.....Lim and Quan.
Lim/Quan had the only fully realized concept and coherent choreography. I thought they should have been ahead of the French team. Their Men in Black was actually fun, well-skated and didn't seem 10 minutes long. Very underscored.
I thought the material for all three Chinese teams was just plain bad. Even Wang/Liu, the most experienced team, looked out of their league compared to the field.
Green/Parsons had a very bad day. The wind went out of the whole thing after the fall. I will have to watch this one again, actually, when it's clean to really judge the material.
Smart/Dieck looked tentative, stiff and cautious throughout. It's so weird because their FD is great — smooth and confident. But the RD's seem to really show up their weaknesses.
The French were just forgettable, though I actually didn't mind the TLC cover. I don't remember a single thing about the choreography, though.
Lopareva/Brissaud also looked tentative and somehow kinda blah? Lots and lots of arms.
Zingas/Kolesnik skated the hell out of their dance, and I can see why they're in second. Just not really memorable choreography though.
Chock/Bates: I think they were lucky to have the world champion bonus to be in first. They crawled across the ice, especially through the pattern step, which Madison stumbled in at the end (though obviously the judges decided the element was finished first, I guess). The hip hop touches were probably the only thing I liked about this. I agree with everyone in the live thread who said they looked slow, so, so slow.
Yikes is 90s ever a dud so far.
Lim/Quan had the only fully realized concept and coherent choreography. I thought they should have been ahead of the French team. Their Men in Black was actually fun, well-skated and didn't seem 10 minutes long. Very underscored.
I thought the material for all three Chinese teams was just plain bad. Even Wang/Liu, the most experienced team, looked out of their league compared to the field.
Green/Parsons had a very bad day. The wind went out of the whole thing after the fall. I will have to watch this one again, actually, when it's clean to really judge the material.
Smart/Dieck looked tentative, stiff and cautious throughout. It's so weird because their FD is great — smooth and confident. But the RD's seem to really show up their weaknesses.
The French were just forgettable, though I actually didn't mind the TLC cover. I don't remember a single thing about the choreography, though.
Lopareva/Brissaud also looked tentative and somehow kinda blah? Lots and lots of arms.
Zingas/Kolesnik skated the hell out of their dance, and I can see why they're in second. Just not really memorable choreography though.
Chock/Bates: I think they were lucky to have the world champion bonus to be in first. They crawled across the ice, especially through the pattern step, which Madison stumbled in at the end (though obviously the judges decided the element was finished first, I guess). The hip hop touches were probably the only thing I liked about this. I agree with everyone in the live thread who said they looked slow, so, so slow.
Yikes is 90s ever a dud so far.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
Immediate impressions for first day:
Men
I thought Mikhail was unfairly called for a UR, thus underscored. I thought Daniel Grassl was somewhat overscored. I would actually have reversed scoring between Daniel & Mikhail. Great showing from Boyang Jin. Hopefully, he stays on point in the fp. Daiwei had a bad day. He usually skates very well. Shun Sato was very good. Too bad Junhwan Cha messed up on important elements. I suppose he can try to come back in the fp for a podium spot. Jacob Sanchez skated well, but missed the combo. Both Deniss and Jacob have to skate clean to be competitive with the quadsters. I felt sad for Deniss, alone in the kiss'n cry after a poor skate. And the judges were overly harsh in denying him a bit better pcs scores. I'm glad Deniss was still able to give us his trademark smile. I hope things get resolved for him soon. He's too good to not be helped on the financial end of things.
Tomoki did well to place midpack. He looked fine, but had a bit lower levels on elements. Livintsev looks good in his black pleather outfit and man bun.
But he wasn't fully in sync with his program yet.
Men
I thought Mikhail was unfairly called for a UR, thus underscored. I thought Daniel Grassl was somewhat overscored. I would actually have reversed scoring between Daniel & Mikhail. Great showing from Boyang Jin. Hopefully, he stays on point in the fp. Daiwei had a bad day. He usually skates very well. Shun Sato was very good. Too bad Junhwan Cha messed up on important elements. I suppose he can try to come back in the fp for a podium spot. Jacob Sanchez skated well, but missed the combo. Both Deniss and Jacob have to skate clean to be competitive with the quadsters. I felt sad for Deniss, alone in the kiss'n cry after a poor skate. And the judges were overly harsh in denying him a bit better pcs scores. I'm glad Deniss was still able to give us his trademark smile. I hope things get resolved for him soon. He's too good to not be helped on the financial end of things.
Tomoki did well to place midpack. He looked fine, but had a bit lower levels on elements. Livintsev looks good in his black pleather outfit and man bun.
But he wasn't fully in sync with his program yet.- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
Women
Alysa Liu proves once again that she's able to bring it at major competitions. Amber Glenn is clearly the best in the women's field, and I love her Madonna sp. But, a little mistake keeps her down in third. Jia Shin is lovely, but she got too close to the boards. Haien Lee still struggles with URs. Rinka W was very good. Anastasia has a really good sp, but she seemed slightly tight from nerves. Maybe Anastasia can pull up for a podium spot. It would be nice to see Jia pull through as well. She's quite lovely when she shows a bit more presence and joy in her skating. Can Alysa maintain her first place, or will Amber skate with fire and control to deny her?
Dance
Sigh... Tim and Olivia looked good in their RD, but were a bit unsteady, with Olivia repeating a similar mistake that happened to Guillaume in the RD at Angers. I hope Olivia/ Tim come out with better fire and control in their FD. I personally do not take to Lopareva/ Brissaud. Yes, they are good, but what they do does not draw me in. It's like self-aware camp from them, but it leaves me unmoved. I much prefer the apparently third-ranked French team, Loicia D/ Theo LM, who performed very well, and probably should have been scored a bit higher. Of course, Zingas/ Kolesnik performed very well to Shpilband choreo, taking advantage of mistakes made by rival teams. Green/ Parsons have a good RD, but ice is slippery, especially when you are pushing the limit to be at your best. So, Michael takes an unexpected tumble on a twizzle sequence, which will not help improve judges' already less impressed views of them.
Lim/Quan have a very good RD to Men in Black. It was very enjoyable to watch, but they are not one of my favorite teams. As usual, Maddie & Evan are pros. They are so good at being prepared for battle. Plus, they know each other so well. Luckily, for them, Maddie's slight backward wobble later in the RD did not occur during an element. I like their costumes, and also Gr/Par had nice costumes, as well as Tim/ Olivia, and Lim/Quan. I thought Lo/Bri and Lim/Quan were slightly overscored, and Loicia/ Theo were slightly underscored.
Alysa Liu proves once again that she's able to bring it at major competitions. Amber Glenn is clearly the best in the women's field, and I love her Madonna sp. But, a little mistake keeps her down in third. Jia Shin is lovely, but she got too close to the boards. Haien Lee still struggles with URs. Rinka W was very good. Anastasia has a really good sp, but she seemed slightly tight from nerves. Maybe Anastasia can pull up for a podium spot. It would be nice to see Jia pull through as well. She's quite lovely when she shows a bit more presence and joy in her skating. Can Alysa maintain her first place, or will Amber skate with fire and control to deny her?
Dance
Sigh... Tim and Olivia looked good in their RD, but were a bit unsteady, with Olivia repeating a similar mistake that happened to Guillaume in the RD at Angers. I hope Olivia/ Tim come out with better fire and control in their FD. I personally do not take to Lopareva/ Brissaud. Yes, they are good, but what they do does not draw me in. It's like self-aware camp from them, but it leaves me unmoved. I much prefer the apparently third-ranked French team, Loicia D/ Theo LM, who performed very well, and probably should have been scored a bit higher. Of course, Zingas/ Kolesnik performed very well to Shpilband choreo, taking advantage of mistakes made by rival teams. Green/ Parsons have a good RD, but ice is slippery, especially when you are pushing the limit to be at your best. So, Michael takes an unexpected tumble on a twizzle sequence, which will not help improve judges' already less impressed views of them.
Lim/Quan have a very good RD to Men in Black. It was very enjoyable to watch, but they are not one of my favorite teams. As usual, Maddie & Evan are pros. They are so good at being prepared for battle. Plus, they know each other so well. Luckily, for them, Maddie's slight backward wobble later in the RD did not occur during an element. I like their costumes, and also Gr/Par had nice costumes, as well as Tim/ Olivia, and Lim/Quan. I thought Lo/Bri and Lim/Quan were slightly overscored, and Loicia/ Theo were slightly underscored.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
Pairs
Hmm, Sui/ Han look eager and polished, but Sui did not manage the sbs jump well. It will be interesting to see if their jumps remain a weakness. They still received a very good score of 74+, so if they had skated clean, I guess they'd be scored out-the-wazoo like Miura/Kihara are scored when they skate clean.
McBeath/Parkman built on their good sp performance last week and made it even better. It's nice to see them fairly rewarded here. They were underscored on GOE last week. It certainly would not have looked great at Cup of China had the judges lowballed McB/Park after their very clean, lovely sp skate with aced sbs jumps, next to the score S/H received, with a fall on the sbs by Sui.
Zhang/Wang have nice choreo, but they are still maturing, so their pcs is not high, despite a good skate technically. Conti/ Macii actually have a nice sp and their costumes look good. They also appear to have been working on increasing their speed. I do not like Metelkina/ Berulava. They are solid technically, but always reach for gimmicks (this time the ever popular headstand
) to substitute for lack of an authentic identity as a team. Their costumes are nice, but the Bolero choice of music is also eyeroll-worthy, as are the overly high scores from judges, especially for their 3-twist where she grazes his head and chest on their dismount.
We'll soon find out what will happen in the fp.
Hmm, Sui/ Han look eager and polished, but Sui did not manage the sbs jump well. It will be interesting to see if their jumps remain a weakness. They still received a very good score of 74+, so if they had skated clean, I guess they'd be scored out-the-wazoo like Miura/Kihara are scored when they skate clean.
McBeath/Parkman built on their good sp performance last week and made it even better. It's nice to see them fairly rewarded here. They were underscored on GOE last week. It certainly would not have looked great at Cup of China had the judges lowballed McB/Park after their very clean, lovely sp skate with aced sbs jumps, next to the score S/H received, with a fall on the sbs by Sui.
Zhang/Wang have nice choreo, but they are still maturing, so their pcs is not high, despite a good skate technically. Conti/ Macii actually have a nice sp and their costumes look good. They also appear to have been working on increasing their speed. I do not like Metelkina/ Berulava. They are solid technically, but always reach for gimmicks (this time the ever popular headstand
) to substitute for lack of an authentic identity as a team. Their costumes are nice, but the Bolero choice of music is also eyeroll-worthy, as are the overly high scores from judges, especially for their 3-twist where she grazes his head and chest on their dismount. We'll soon find out what will happen in the fp.
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2012
I just watched the FD, and I must say: Olivia and Tim were absolutely stunning. It seems Chris doesn't realise it is another Dance than at the 2025 WC, but he is very positive and made no remarks afterwards (which he did do sometimes to make a point why some levels were lowered). That control. Really great stuff! A pity they didn't do better at the RD.
Although I quite liked the Chinese couples, their programmes were all a bit bland. Too many similar lifts by Shiyue and Xinyu, even if that demonstrates his strength. I liked watching Hannah and Ye, they seem to grow every year (even if in ID that usually means at a snail's pace through the years). Loicia and Theo were not at their best, Theo made a mistake in the spin which Chris regrettably did not see (a slight step out which was costly but it wasn't shown in the replay). I am so pleased that Evgeniia and Geoffrey get to show a different side in this FD. Much nicer than their techno stuff (sorry for those who liked that). I was so happy for Emilea and Vadym. Their Dance looked good, so did their scores. Romeo and Juliet might be a warhorse, but Emilea and Vadym gave a wonderful interpretation. Madison needs to work on the skirtthing. It is allright to make a skirt part of the story, but there certainly were some messy bits too. Madison and Evan never are at their best at the beginning of seasons, so let's hope she gets more sure with that skirt, or maybe it needs to be a little shorter?
Although I quite liked the Chinese couples, their programmes were all a bit bland. Too many similar lifts by Shiyue and Xinyu, even if that demonstrates his strength. I liked watching Hannah and Ye, they seem to grow every year (even if in ID that usually means at a snail's pace through the years). Loicia and Theo were not at their best, Theo made a mistake in the spin which Chris regrettably did not see (a slight step out which was costly but it wasn't shown in the replay). I am so pleased that Evgeniia and Geoffrey get to show a different side in this FD. Much nicer than their techno stuff (sorry for those who liked that). I was so happy for Emilea and Vadym. Their Dance looked good, so did their scores. Romeo and Juliet might be a warhorse, but Emilea and Vadym gave a wonderful interpretation. Madison needs to work on the skirtthing. It is allright to make a skirt part of the story, but there certainly were some messy bits too. Madison and Evan never are at their best at the beginning of seasons, so let's hope she gets more sure with that skirt, or maybe it needs to be a little shorter?
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
Yeah, I agree that Emilea & Vadym had a good event. They use that rotational lift quite a bit in both programs, a variation of the amazing signature rotational lift performed by Flores/ Desyatov. In the middle of Emi/ Vadym's Romeo & Juliet FD, Benoit has also used the very familiar falling forward move that Kaitlyn Weaver created last season for Flores/ Desyatov in their FD to Poor Things. IMO, Kaitlyn Weaver choreographed in a fresh and engaging way West Side Story (inspired by Romeo & Juliet) for Flores/Desyatov two seasons ago. In other words, the work that Kaitlyn did for Flores/ Desyatov has been inspirational for a number of teams, including Pham/ Spirodonov (with their Ghost: the Musical FD this season -- Anton even wears a very similar styled outfit to what Desyatov wore in WSS).
Loicia and Theo definitely had problems with their FD. It looks like they don't have a good command of the program yet. They may need to try and simplify some of the moves. It looks a bit busy and chaotic. Lim/Quan skated well. They are still growing as a team. Marie-France certainly found a good vehicle for L/Q with the wartime love story theme, utilizing Barber's Adagio for Strings. It reminds me of modern dance choreographer, Paul Taylor's work, Sunset, featuring Elgar's Elegy for Strings.
What happened to Green/ Parsons with the withdrawal? I am guessing Michael may have been injured by his fall in the RD. Lopareva/ Brissaud looked pretty good with this more lyrical style. They still brought some of their own edgy approach to it. I suppose they wanted to utilize a similar style to what Papadakis/ Cizeron made famous in order to compete against Cizeron in his return with Laurence.
If Olivia/ Tim had skated a better RD, they would have placed at least 2nd or 3rd. Their FD was much better, but even their FD can surely score higher as they get mileage on it. Maddie/ Evan's bullfight FD is interesting, but for sure, they will need to make improvements. While Lilah/ Lewis scored 123+ last week, I think they were a bit overscored in both RD and FD. Of course, each week's panel is different in how they perceive and score performances.
Loicia and Theo definitely had problems with their FD. It looks like they don't have a good command of the program yet. They may need to try and simplify some of the moves. It looks a bit busy and chaotic. Lim/Quan skated well. They are still growing as a team. Marie-France certainly found a good vehicle for L/Q with the wartime love story theme, utilizing Barber's Adagio for Strings. It reminds me of modern dance choreographer, Paul Taylor's work, Sunset, featuring Elgar's Elegy for Strings.
What happened to Green/ Parsons with the withdrawal? I am guessing Michael may have been injured by his fall in the RD. Lopareva/ Brissaud looked pretty good with this more lyrical style. They still brought some of their own edgy approach to it. I suppose they wanted to utilize a similar style to what Papadakis/ Cizeron made famous in order to compete against Cizeron in his return with Laurence.
If Olivia/ Tim had skated a better RD, they would have placed at least 2nd or 3rd. Their FD was much better, but even their FD can surely score higher as they get mileage on it. Maddie/ Evan's bullfight FD is interesting, but for sure, they will need to make improvements. While Lilah/ Lewis scored 123+ last week, I think they were a bit overscored in both RD and FD. Of course, each week's panel is different in how they perceive and score performances.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
I woke up only in time to watch the last 3 men.
I have to say that I really didn't like Misha's Dimash pot-pourri, the costume, the packaging etc... Some of the jumps were exciting, but lots of edges and rotation call. I guess it's early in the season so he will fix the jumps but that didn't look too promising to me in an Olympic year for a world medalist.
Then, Daniel, "the Pope" Grassl. I am sorry but who thought this was a good idea for a program ? I mean, the beginning of it all is a voice saying " the Pope is dead". like... really ? Ok... and the costume reveal... "land a loop, become a pope" I don't know. It's a bit too religious of a theme for me for Olympic Games.
Thankfully, Shun came in with a great and reasonable skate (clean and manageable quads) and with one of the best warhorses out there : Firebird. So I am relieved but yeah... this was a rough morning for me to see these first two programs back to back.
I have to say that I really didn't like Misha's Dimash pot-pourri, the costume, the packaging etc... Some of the jumps were exciting, but lots of edges and rotation call. I guess it's early in the season so he will fix the jumps but that didn't look too promising to me in an Olympic year for a world medalist.
Then, Daniel, "the Pope" Grassl. I am sorry but who thought this was a good idea for a program ? I mean, the beginning of it all is a voice saying " the Pope is dead". like... really ? Ok... and the costume reveal... "land a loop, become a pope" I don't know. It's a bit too religious of a theme for me for Olympic Games.
Thankfully, Shun came in with a great and reasonable skate (clean and manageable quads) and with one of the best warhorses out there : Firebird. So I am relieved but yeah... this was a rough morning for me to see these first two programs back to back.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2023
Reported for sedition. The Skating Pontiff judges and is judged by nobody.
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2012
I took a look at the Mens FS. So, so pleased Tomoki had a good FS. He did the menning bit in a good way. I was also pleased Jin didn't go as bad as last year (he went from first in the short and fell back to 8th or something like that). He was still 5th overall. I felt so sorry for Sota. He has back problems, and it showed (well, not the problems as such, but his capability in the jumps was lacking somewhat). I loved Shun's Firebird. Well done! I recall Shun winning the JGPF years ago. He can never be counted out. Why Daniel wants to be a new pope eludes me, but his skate was ok jumping wise. Mikhail jumped his way to a medal, and not much in-between.
I am not going to say anything about Dennis and his skates, except that he will have my support always.
I am not going to say anything about Dennis and his skates, except that he will have my support always.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
Looked at the results, since I can't watch the competitons till tomorrow, and it's a mixed bag. Glad that Glenn, Sato and Metelkina/Berulava did well, sucks that Gubanova and Shaidorov didn't. Dance seems less of a surprise than last stage, though S/D low placement was unexpected. I thought they had the push from some corner. At least they didn’t knock Lopareva/Brissaud off the podium, so there is that.
