Replay Lounge 2025 GP Finlandia Trophy

[largeman]

How cool is it that Rino Matsuike brought back Sasha’s Pas de Deux long program (and her glorious spiral sequence). My favorite this season!

 

[frompolandwithlove]

I think it was about Andreas not Stephen.. and well, I'd like to know what a triple Euler is too.... I'd care to see a double even

Yeah, you're right, it wasn't about Stephen.

If Eulers are half-loops, then triple Euler is what? 1,5 loop?

 

[Mathman]

The leading ladies were excellent. Mone Chiba gave a complete performance balancing athleticism and grace. Amber Glenn; triple Axel was solid, but those mistakes do add up. Rino Matsuke was a delight.

Tara L. commentating on NBC went out of her way to say that the tech panels lack consistency in giving out q's, so I guess we're not the only ones.

 

[Arigato]

Cohen's legs were better positioned and utilized that anyone else these days. "double footed" skating means nothing with regards to artistic impact. Skating is an endeavor that requires two legs and is most beautiful when both legs, and the entire body, are displaying a great line or interesting shape. This has become lost in skating and needs to return. The body lines are constantly being broken, the shoulders hunched, legs bent or not extended, feet askew, the arms failing to be held in the most attractive way, head down and face failing to project to the audience. Lack of rhythm to the movement, lack of purpose.

Beautiful crossovers that caress the ice and build tension and maintain flow are infinitely preferable to random turns that serve no purpose and actively make it impossible to hold a shape and create a clear picture. Anything someone does in a program should be performed because it looks good and follows the music. If something doesn't look good or doesn't serve any real purpose with the music, it should inherently be a PCS deduction. Judges are not actually looking at these details and deducting for deficiencies though. They don't even know what the deficiencies are in terms of real choreography.

The problem with this post is it comes across as, "I love Ed Sheeran's music and if you don't, well, screw you. Only I know what good music sounds like." By the way? I can't stand Ed Sheeran's music. There are different styles of skating, just as there are different styles of music.

Thankfully.

 

[reneerose]

Yeah, you're right, it wasn't about Stephen.

If Eulers are half-loops, then triple Euler is what? 1,5 loop?

I think probably just 3 half-loops in sequence...I kinda think like Andreas super quickly going in tinier jumps from lilypad to lilypad to lilypad (if he were a frog) before doing the big jump...so like the coaches say...eulers connecting between big jumps... 1.5 loops implies going a full loop and then a half loop - but that's like semantics

 

[Skating91]

I thought we got the right result in the women's, although everyone had problems with their jumps. Chiba a serial offender, and again Glenn had clear very q's at a minimum with her triple axels, but not called (how do they always miss it???). I just preferred Chiba's programs as well. I think Chiba should be much much further ahead for PCS. They hold her back for some reason. Watching Glenn's program the first 25 seconds of each program is almost identical choreography plus the same 12-15 seconds setup with the triple axel. Whereas I feel Chiba skates two different programs. Someone mentioned adding a second triple axel might be her best chance, but given it takes 12-15 seconds doing a loop of the rink to set up and complete just the one triple axel, we're talking half a minute of setting up and completing two jumps.

 

[discodisco]

Piper Gilles tells the truth:

"We've lost that connection to who's watching and also the connection between who's controlling our fate. And I think that's where this needs to change. The judges should judge what they see, the beauty and the artistry of this sport. So I hope that there's a way that we can move forward and open it up and truly be creative, because I think that's what the fans are wanting. They're wanting to come back and support this sport, but I think if our system is still this way, I don't think we're going to keep bringing in the people, because we're discouraged and the audience is discouraged.”

The tech requirements need to be completely overhauled. Footwork sequences have been clunky for far too long and don't let people move on the ice in a natural and interesting way. Spins are too restrictive instead of being moments of beauty and musical interpretation, the rules surrounding lifts need adjustment, and axel sequences getting the same value as combinations is a disaster (stepping into a TRIPLE Axel is what was supposed to be given more credit, not just a double, and also the 3rd jump of a combo should be required to be a different type of jump than the 2nd one, unless it's a Loop).

Yes, yes, yes! I remember Katarina Witt criticizing the ISU step sequences. They certainly require a lot more skill than the simpler, circular footwork skaters like Philippe Candeloro did. But they often look clunky, take forever, and aren’t very aesthetic—unless you’re Patrick Chan, they can feel like something you just want to be over.

I do appreciate the points-based system because it makes results more quantifiable. But it also encourages programs built almost like algorithms, like the Russian “baby ballerinas,” packed with a million pointless, unrelated turns and kicks thrown in to score points, often at the expense of simpler, more classic elements that truly showcase the beauty and control of the blade—like split jumps, spread eagles, or solid edges. I’d still rather this than return to the old 6.0 system, which was arbitrary and confusing.

 

[discodisco]

I thought we got the right result in the women's, although everyone had problems with their jumps. Chiba a serial offender, and again Glenn had clear very q's at a minimum with her triple axels, but not called (how do they always miss it???). I just preferred Chiba's programs as well. I think Chiba should be much much further ahead for PCS. They hold her back for some reason. Watching Glenn's program the first 25 seconds of each program is almost identical choreography plus the same 12-15 seconds setup with the triple axel. Whereas I feel Chiba skates two different programs. Someone mentioned adding a second triple axel might be her best chance, but given it takes 12-15 seconds doing a loop of the rink to set up and complete just the one triple axel, we're talking half a minute of setting up for setting up and completing two jumps.

I was one of the ones who recommended a second triple axle, though I get your point about the length of the setup. But I don't think her triple axles were a clear quarter or more short. I watch Pretty closely and reviewed just about every jump, and unless I totally missed the angle on that one, I felt pretty confident that they were fully rotated. Maybe I need my eyes checked

 

[discodisco]

I like quality. There are different ways to achieve quality though, not just the type that Efimova is showing. She's special... but it's certainly not the only way that quality should be rewarded. I still don't even how Mitrofanov looks like because I have never noticed him. Efimova would be a star in solo dance. She's beautiful to watch. Unfortunately, she's skating in pairs and her partner's presence or lack of thereof is an issue for me.

That's so funny. I've always thought he is better than she is. Yes I appreciate their Russian style classic lines, but I don't feel they have much of a connection to be honest, which is why I guess we're all allowed to have favorites for different reasons. I still think the Canadians were low bald though

 

[midori green]

I think probably just 3 half-loops in sequence...I kinda think like Andreas super quickly going in tinier jumps from lilypad to lilypad to lilypad (if he were a frog) before doing the big jump...so like the coaches say...eulers connecting between big jumps... 1.5 loops implies going a full loop and then a half loop - but that's like semantics

A half loop is really a strange name as the jump is basically a single loop that lands on the opposite foot. So, I'd say doing an opposite-foot-landing double loop would be like a 1.5 loop or double Euler (and doing a triple loop that lands on the opposite foot would be 2.5 loop or triple Euler). I can't wrap my brain around how one would do more than one euler in a row since the takeoff and landing legs are different. But euler and single salchow repeating in sequence could be a fun lilypad effect!

 

[Skating91]

I was one of the ones who recommended a second triple axle, though I get your point about the length of the setup. But I don't think her triple axles were a clear quarter or more short. I watch Pretty closely and reviewed just about every jump, and unless I totally missed the angle on that one, I felt pretty confident that they were fully rotated. Maybe I need my eyes checked

They were definitely both q at a minimum I will post the screen shots during the week.

 

[Mathematician]

Someone mentioned adding a second triple axel might be her best chance, but given it takes 12-15 seconds doing a loop of the rink to set up and complete just the one triple axel, we're talking half a minute of setting up and completing two jumps.

It's not about better or worse chances. It is her only chance if she wants Olympic podium without relying on other girls to give it away. Without the one mistake she would be bordering 220. She is not missing any arbiter's bonuses which could suddenly appear in February. There is a wall she is not breaking without another 3A.

 

[TT_Fin]

As I have had busy autumn, I have not watched much from the beginning. Is it normal today, that judges are not introduced at all? Is it a new normal convention? Not that I would care abot their names but that gives some extra time when queuing to the toilet or for food/coffee when watching at place. The pauses were very short this time. And (old?) ISU tune was not played either when competition began. I have found it before good to hear as a sign "take you seat".

 

[Mathman]

It's not about better or worse chances. It is her only chance if she wants Olympic podium without relying on other girls to give it away.... There is a wall she is not breaking without another 3A.

I think that there is another factor, too. Amber's triple Axel is fine -- she has done four of them in her two Grand Prix events, all four of excellent quality, with full rotations and with GOEs of +2 and +3s

It's her edge jumps, especially the flip, and especially, especially the flip in combination, that hold her back. She is not a quick rotator (like Rinka Watanabe, for instance), so she must get height to complete the revolutions. Here she commented afterward that the ice was "softer" than usual which prevented her from achieving good height on her toe jumps, but the edge jumps were OK. Would she come out ahead by replacing an iffy 3F+3T with a solid 3A+2T?

It may, however, be too late in the season to take a chance on major revisions of the program.

As for PCS, yes she has a ceiling, but it only amounts to a couple of points below virtuosos like Sakamoto, Chiba, and Liu. Everybody will get higher PCSs across the board at Milano as the ISU displays its product to the world.

 

[Janice4th]

They were definitely both q at a minimum I will post the screen shots during the week.

No, they weren’t.

 

[4everchan]

I think that there is another factor, too. Amber's triple Axel is fine -- she has done four of them in her two Grand Prix events, all four of excellent quality, with full rotations and with GOEs of +2 and +3s

It's her edge jumps, especially the flip, and especially, especially the flip in combination, that hold her back. She is not a quick rotator (like Rinka Watanabe, for instance), so she must get height to complete the revolutions. Here she commented afterward that the ice was "softer" than usual which prevented her from achieving good height on her toe jumps, but the edge jumps were OK. Would she come out ahead by replacing an iffy 3F+3T with a solid 3A+2T?

It may, however, be too late in the season to take a chance on major revisions of the program.

As for PCS, yes she has a ceiling, but it only amounts to a couple of points below virtuosos like Sakamoto, Chiba, and Liu. Everybody will get higher PCSs across the board at Milano as the ISU displays its product to the world.

Edge jumps are salchow, loop and axel. I guess you meant her toe assisted jumps. I don't think the flip is quite an issue compared to the lutz.

What I am curious about : can Amber do a 3A combo ? Without that, there is no discussion.

 

[Mathematician]

What I am curious about : can Amber do a 3A combo ? Without that, there is no discussion.

Someone mentioned in the tournament thread that she has skated FS with 2 3As in training however I haven't looked into this claim. "But she is taking it easy" was the qualification. It could make sense to save it for main events.

A question I also have is how 2 3As would affect her endurance. I'm not sure how good her cardio is. She might jump 2 3As but it could lead to even more problems on her Lutz, or 3-3 later on.

 

[4everchan]

Someone mentioned in the tournament thread that she has skated FS with 2 3As in training however I haven't looked into this claim. "But she is taking it easy" was the qualification. It could make sense to save it for main events.

A question I also have is how 2 3As would affect her endurance. I'm not sure how good her cardio is. She might jump 2 3As but it could lead to even more problems on her Lutz, or 3-3 later on.

It all depends on conditioning indeed. Sara-Maude Dupuis (go Canada!) is now the first Canadian woman to land it in competition. Each time, she wasn't able to do her 3lz combo after landing the 3A. She always has doubled it. At Skate Canada, she had a disastrous skate after the 3a. At Warsaw cup, other than the doubled lutz, she was able to jump the rest of her program without more pops or major issues. However, I doubt she would be able yet to include two of these... or feel like she can use a 3a in a combo. Not everyone has enough flow out of it to do a 3a-3t like Rinka does. So, it's not just about stamina but also about having enough speed on the landing to tag in a combo. Otherwise the +REP just kills the purpose of adding a second 3a.

 

[Mathman]

I am not privy to details of Amber's training regimen, nor what she considers easy or hard. IMaybe 3A and 3A+2T would actually be less taxing to her than 3A and 3F+3q?

What I did notice, though, were the nubers from protocols. In her four programs on the Grand Prix (SP and LP, China and Finland), all 4 of her triple Axels got positive GOE ()1.71, +1.83, +1.60, +0.80) and all 4 of her flip combos got minuses from base value (-1.74, -1.59, -0.30, -0.30). It seems like it might be just as easy for Amber to tack a +2T onto the end of a second triple Axel as to tack a +3Tq onto a triple flip.

Dunno. I am sure her coaching team has all this well in hand without my input.

 

[TT_Fin]

I just read some articles from Finnish media about this competition. In one of those was Mika Saarelainen's comment. He said when he retires he is more free to say what he wants because he does not need to behave as a judge. I will not put link or translate everything he said, because he said something about which some people here certainly will not like. But he said that judging in dance was very weird.