2025-26 Grand Prix Final Free Dance

[discodisco]

Round of applause for Maddy and Evan.

I am sad about Piper and Paul though, that was really unfair Ted mentioned enjoying the dances for what they are, which I did! But it does kind of sour things when a team doesn't get the proper recognition. Not to mention the affect it must have on Piper and Paul!

Okay - but what I always ask is: why? But what was so unfair about it? And yes, I am canadian, I want them to do well, and I love their programs. But what is the reason that makes us all think they were underscored or not rewarded? Is it just preference? Or can somebody quantify it by breaking down the programs, analyzing edges, speaking authoritatively on the technical and PCs components of the program? For example, the closest I have heard is that people note, correctly, that the Americans are notably slower with less ice coverage and often weaker edges than the other teams. I agree, but what else about Piper and Paul's programs suggest that they should have been first? And I am honestly interested in knowing, and not just people saying they were lowballed because they happened to like them as skaters, or people, or like the song, Etc

 

[discodisco]

Piper's posture, and lack of extension have held back the scores. Particularly in this era of ice dance that values big highlight moves that take advantage of the female skater's flexibility, posture, and extension - something Chock/Bates excel at - it's difficult for the judges to award the highest GOE.

Okay, that's really helpful to know. You're pretty much the first person in this thread who has given a reason for why one team is superior to another, or made a comment that isn't just based on personal preference of the skaters, the music, or the aesthetic. So with paper and Paul I've always noted that Paul's posture is often technically perfect, but gives a very wooden look that doesn't always fit the theme or style of the dance. And you're saying that with Piper it's the opposite, that's well she's more emotive, her posture is an issue. That's helpful to take into consideration.

 

[4everchan]

men in about 1 hour? i'm going to need a lot of confort food

I went to bed. Best decision ever.

 

[discodisco]

that's a fair comment.... but does Lilah have such flexibility, posture and extension ?

True. I appreciate people pointing out technical flaws such as Piper's posture, because it's much more convincing than people just making unsupported claims about why such and such a team deserved better or was under mark. But I would also agree that Lilah, while much more expressive, definitely struggles in the area of posture and polish, as parts of the dance seem rough. But I think that I might have to reluctantly acknowledge that that is part of the Brilliance of their choreography - they do nowhere near as many long gliding moments as Piper and Paul, so the lack of edge control, depth of edges and flow of the British team is not nearly as noticeable because it's hidden by lots of quick choppy movements movements...

 

[4everchan]

True. I appreciate people pointing out technical flaws such as Piper's posture, because it's much more convincing than people just making unsupported claims about why such and such a team deserved better or was under mark. But I would also agree that Lilah, while much more expressive, definitely struggles in the area of posture and polish, as parts of the dance seem rough. But I think that I might have to reluctantly acknowledge that that is part of the Brilliance of their choreography - they do nowhere near as many long gliding moments as Piper and Paul, so the lack of edge control, depth of edges and flow of the British team is not nearly as noticeable because it's hidden by lots of quick choppy movements movements...

I'm not a skater so not an expert... But just as a fan, I have noticed how some skaters disguise their lack of blade skills... If I can see it, I'm sure the judges can see it too

 

[discodisco]

Oh yeah, I’m not arguing against Piper and Paul at all. If I had my way Piper and Paul would have won everything this quad! What I’m saying is that it looks like ice dance criteria/judging is moving in a certain direction that doesn’t favour Piper and Paul’s style (or the Italians for that matter) which is what now seems to be the “old school” of ice dance style.

This is all reminding me of 2010 when after a few years of pushing ice dance in a new direction, V/M and D/W finally overtook Belbin and Agosto in the Olympic year.

So if Piper and Paul really wanted to win they would have had to design their programmes to really appease the way the judging criteria has been going the last three years (which Piper and Paul would never do because they always stay true to themselves which is what I love about them eventhough it doesn’t always help them with the judges). This is what IAM has done with Chock/Bates and now the French, as two older teams wanting to stay competitive for the Gold.

I’m not saying it’s right, just commenting on how it appears the sport is moving. (Also I also appreciate that F/G do not have the skating skills that V/M or D/W had - the point is that they are being rewarded for their fitness, athleticism, and innovation which seems to be a lot of what the judges want).

I think it's possible for Piper and Paul to meet the approval of the judges without selling their souls, as it were a full stop they would probably just need to spend some time with the modern dance coach or something, and get Paul to loosen up a bit. He is probably one of the best skaters from the waist down, blades on ice, etc. Certainly light years ahead of Evan. But he doesn't have fluidity or variety of movement at all only once have I ever seen him loosen up, and that was when they had the killer Rhythm dance the year they were set back due to Piper's surgery.

 

[discodisco]

Oh yeah, I’m not arguing against Piper and Paul at all. If I had my way Piper and Paul would have won everything this quad! What I’m saying is that it looks like ice dance criteria/judging is moving in a certain direction that doesn’t favour Piper and Paul’s style (or the Italians for that matter) which is what now seems to be the “old school” of ice dance style.

This is all reminding me of 2010 when after a few years of pushing ice dance in a new direction, V/M and D/W finally overtook Belbin and Agosto in the Olympic year.

So if Piper and Paul really wanted to win they would have had to design their programmes to really appease the way the judging criteria has been going the last three years (which Piper and Paul would never do because they always stay true to themselves which is what I love about them eventhough it doesn’t always help them with the judges). This is what IAM has done with Chock/Bates and now the French, as two older teams wanting to stay competitive for the Gold.

I’m not saying it’s right, just commenting on how it appears the sport is moving. (Also I also appreciate that F/G do not have the skating skills that V/M or D/W had - the point is that they are being rewarded for their fitness, athleticism, and innovation which seems to be a lot of what the judges want).

I think it's possible for Piper and Paul to meet the approval of the judges without selling their souls, as it were a full stop they would probably just need to spend some time with the modern dance coach or something, and get Paul to loosen up a bit. He is probably one of the best skaters from the waist down, blades on ice, etc. Certainly light years ahead of Evan. But he doesn't have fluidity or variety of movement at all only once have I ever seen him loosen up, and that was when they had the killer Rhythm dance the year when they were set back due to Piper's surgery.

yeah,..

so... I looked at the protocols...

Piper and Paul got 46.41... a full point ahead of FG... actually they received the second highest BV for their elements... so the TP recognized their skills..

Judges GOE... some of the scores in there : 1s and 2s (many 2s). ... this is where Lilah and Lewis received very high marks from the judges..

Also, the PCS were even which is crazy in my humble opinion. The brits have a fun number but it's shallow... how can it score the same as Pipe and Paul in PCS ? I have no idea.

Well, I can see the British team winning the presentation component because they really do sell their program. But the complexity of Piper and Paul's dance deserved more notice, and the overall skating skills and control of the blade should have been recognized as well. If you want to give the British team the win okay, do it. But make sure that you are rewarding the correct skaters in the correct category. Program composition for Piper and Paul is superior, I would say, along with skating skills by a country mile. Give it to the Brits when it comes to presentation and expression, but that's it.

 

[discodisco]

I wonder why training at Montreal seems to add points. I am so sorry for Piper and Paul. Their program is so beautiful. They skated it so cleanly. For me they were better than Brits. It looks for another time that the coaching centre matters for judges more than the performance.

I feel that if Paul and Piper had changed to IAM years ago, they would be dominating. I have thought many times that Carol Lane's judgment has been part of the problem. For example, the last Olympics she gave Piper and Paul the most atrocious Rhythm dance, including that terrible Orange costuming. I just feel that Marie France and team are superior when it comes to packaging their students, highlighting their strengths, hiding their weaknesses, and still staying true to the style and individualism of the teams.

 

[discodisco]

V/M was getting 10s with a fall, remember the times?

Personally, I think Falls are punished way too severely in ice dance. If you fall on a jump in a singles program, or the pairs even, sure, nail them with deductions, because half of the skating is just doing crossovers in between big highlight moves. You skate all the way down the ice, sometimes with little or no transitions, and do a triple combination. Great. You have a number of those huge highlight moves with jumps and lifts and Spins Etc throughout the program. So if you fall on one? Absolutely! Deduct away.

But dance is full of hundreds of nuanced movements, far more intricate turns and holds and complex choreography than any of the other disciplines. So let's say a skater on some crossovers going around the corner, or even in a step sequence, to meet the deduction is, percentage-wise, a much smaller part of the overall program. And if that team happens to have Sublime skating skills, that are evident in every movement, with Edward that is just far superior to another team, then a fall, in my mind shouldn't necessarily impact the entirety of what could otherwise be a stunning program. Like when Piper and Paul fell last year in the Rhythm dance at the Grand Prix final- it was ridiculous for them to fall to last place. Yes the fall needs to be accounted for, but it shouldn't have cost them 10 points or whatever it was...

 

[discodisco]

I think this is a very valid point. It is bewildering to me how some judges flip-flop with awarding the glitz of one program over the artistically superiority of others. Lilah and Lewis are great entertainers but Piper and Paul deserved better. I hope this serves to motivate Piper and Paul; there is still that important Olympic performance to come!

Yes. 100%. What they need is some sort of pizzazz added to that program. They don't have to lose the entire aesthetic of Vincent to do this. Just add some sparkle, and amp things up in a few places. They are close, but need something to draw more attention to what they're doing, because at the moment that's where the Britains are beating them.

 

[4everchan]

I feel that if Paul and Piper had changed to IAM years ago, they would be dominating. I have thought many times that Carol Lane's judgment has been part of the problem. For example, the last Olympics she gave Piper and Paul the most atrocious Rhythm dance, including that terrible Orange costuming. I just feel that Marie France and team are superior when it comes to packaging their students, highlighting their strengths, hiding their weaknesses, and still staying true to the style and individualism of the teams.

Weaver Poje tried to switch to IAM and were denied. I don't think Piper and Paul tried but I doubt IAM would have taken them.

The Canadian teams they have were brought up there (at least one of the skater was a local) The only exception was Virtue Moir but that was when they came back after a two year hiatus.

I have a feeling that IAM doesn't want to take students away from fellow Canadian coaches but that's me projecting as I don't do that myself, taking talent away as I value good camaraderie with my peers...

 

[discodisco]

The issue is that Lilah and Lewis have a lot of tricks and dynamism which seems to be what the judges have wanted this quad - that’s also what has benefitted Bock. I will say I absolutely love F/G’s FD and thought that was almost the best they’ve performed it all season but I was mesmerized by Piper and Paul and wanted them to get the Bronze. I guess their FD isn’t as innovative (in the judges eyes) as Bock’s or F/G. I think even Mark said they’ve gone back to some old choreography for their FD because they know it’s safe and they can perform those moves well but looking at the GOE’s they weren’t rewarded as highly for them compared to F/G

I very much agree that the British team has a very Olympic worthy program in the sense that it's going to get rave reviews and a ton of support from non-educated skating fans - and that goes a long way in an olympic year. Look at the fact that V / m are remembered most for their Moulin Rouge program which is not one of their best - but they delivered it in the right style in the right event with the Right audience and it pretty much made them famous outside of the typical skating community. I happen to love the dance, the way I acknowledge that the French might have had the better program - which the judge is also felt. But who actually remembers that outside of the Die Hard skating fans? Pretty much nobody in that sense, like an absolutely see the British teams dances, both the Rhythm and the free dance, being all over social media and getting them tons of screen time and fans

 

[discodisco]

should it matter that a team is bringing back a favourite routine ? Even if they have done it before, it's still a very special dance. Some of the moves like the ChAJ or the Turtle lift may no longer be new but they invented them... Their precision should be rewarded too.

I will be blunt, I don't like Lilah and Lewis. I did the first couple season but then, they copied and pasted the same style over and over again and to me, that's even more a sign of lacking innovation.

Piper and Paul do not need to prove that they are innovative. They have done it throughout their entire career.

Also, if the sport really wanted teams to get innovative, they wouldn't have rules about which turns need to be performed when and how and at what speed (for instance in the RD for the speed) ... they would let them explore. Ice dance is by nature, confined in a space where innovation is not really expected that much... so why penalize a team that is brining back an old favourite and giving fans goosebumps?

I am not happy that my two favourite teams both brought back old programs because I like discovering new choreography and finding out the intricate relationship of movement and music in dance... but Piper and Paul (and LaLa) skate their Free Dance so well that they should be rewarded for it.

Composition mark shouldn't be about what is innovative but about the choreography put on the ice that day. Was Piper and Paul's Free dance badly choreographed ? Definitely not. Each element, each movement had its purpose. Everything was polished and refined.

I know Piper and Paul don't need anyone's approval, so to speak, but if they are aware of something that is lacking if in their skating from the judges perspective, and don't do anything about it, then they can't shake their heads or complain about not getting the results they want. And this is coming from someone who absolutely believes they should have been third- Maybe higher. But they definitely have parts of their skill set that are less developed, and they could definitely benefit from a bit of Sparkle

 

[4everchan]

I know Piper and Paul don't need anyone's approval, so to speak, but if they are aware of something that is lacking if in their skating from the judges perspective, and don't do anything about it, then they can't shake their heads or complain about not getting the results they want. And this is coming from someone who absolutely believes they should have been third- Maybe higher. But they definitely have parts of their skill set that are less developed, and they could definitely benefit from a bit of Sparkle

I believe that they are listening to the judges and improving. They have changed the gliding move into a hydro blade that keeps the speed and flow... They have changed the unfortunate lift too. They have improved the speed for the stat lift and made the transition from the rotational lift better. I think Vincent is pretty good. In the RD, maybe if like to see them loosen up a bit more. They seem more fun than that

 

[sofiaidfan]

what else about Piper and Paul's programs suggest that they should have been first?

Piper and Paul posing several
time less than Bock or Fear/Gibson. Paul lift Piper several
time less than Evan lift Madison or Gibson lift Fear.

 

[Isk]

Ice dance final in pictures

 

[muptgirl]

Papadakis is just pathetic with her IG posts about lovely amazing Bates. Now she loves C/B, lmao. She is embarrasing herself. Bates is the weakest skater of them all. She is SO objective.

She behaves like 13 years old

They have been friends for a long time. Was talked about on their podcast and on the On Edge series before the last Olympics. I don't think her post was specifically about his skating.

 

[TallyT]

She behaves like 13 years old

People in glass houses....

They are friends. They have been friends for years. You do understand the concept of friends?

 

[Miya88]

People in glass houses....

They are friends. They have been friends for years. You do understand the concept of friends?

Please, we know she is against Cizeron and cheer for C/B getting olympic gold. Them being friends is pointless. They all are.

 

[TallyT]

Them being friends is pointless.

Ah I see, you do not understand the concept.