Papadakis publishes book; Cizeron challenges claims

[bramweld]

IMHO, there needs to be an official space within the ISU where persons, women and men alike, with these power dynamic issues can receive guidance and support. Especially for young, impressionable persons. We forget how young these two were when they began their trajectory. She may not have had the skills and inner fortitude to manage emotionally. Maybe there could be a mentor-mentee situation where persons of the calibre of Meryl Davis, Maddison Hubbell, Tessa Scott, Elena Polunina etc, who've made the successful transition to life outside of ice dance, could engage with.

On a side note, this may be a reason to diversify the ice dance discipline to give young girls more options; solo, mixed pairs, same sex pairs, quartets etc.

 

[Mathman]

"Let it all come down to the free skate, best man wins."

I hope everyone appreciates the irony of this mantra as applied to the 2018 Olympic ice dance competition.

It came down to the Free Dance. Papadakis and Cizeron proved themselves to be the best team, at least in that skate, setting a new world record in Free Dance and outpointing their rivals, thus winning the big prize... Oh...wait ..

 

[Mathman]

I don't see the big deal about the quote where Gabby admits she wished for Virtue and Moir to make a mistake so she and Guillaume could win the Olympic gold.

Here's what I think. I think that we humans need to learn to laugh at ourselves, lest we fall into despair.

I can imagine a person in Gabriella's position going through a flight of ideas along the lines, "Well, skate gods, you just unfairly blew up our hopes and dreams by sending down those invisible magic scissors to cut the thread that held my costume together. When do WE get a break? How about leveling the playing field by tossing a lightning bolt in the direction of Tessa Virtue for a change?

Is this mental illness and bad sportsmanship, or is it just human nature?

 

[TontoK]

This is a very immature response. The world does not revolve around absolutes - this is what has gotten us into the mess we are in globally. People have different perspectives based on their lived experience which includes their background, how they were raised, where they come from, what they have experienced etc. Two people can experience the exact same event and have totally different perspectives on what happened (have you never experienced this with a family member, friend or partner?)

I don't think it's immature at all. And the world does revolve around absolutes. Our entire universe is predicated on them.

If Gabby says "I felt this..." then yes, that is her perspective.

If she says, "He told me this..." then that statement is either true or it is not. He absolutely said it or he absolutely did not. I don't know which, and I'll never know, barring some sort of objective evidence. But my lack of certainty is irrelevant to whether he did or did not say something.

And speaking of perspectives... my perspective is that much of our "mess we are in globally" can be attributed to a belief that absolutes do not exist. It implies that truth is a myth, or that truth is less important than our feelings in the moment, or that truth should be dismissed if it interferes with a particular objective. This is not a "pro right" or "pro left" position. It is a "pro truth" position.

 

[IceDancingQueen]

I don't think it's immature at all. And the world does revolve around absolutes. Our entire universe is predicated on them.

If Gabby says "I felt this..." then yes, that is her perspective.

If she says, "He told me this..." then that statement is either true or it is not. He absolutely said it or he absolutely did not. I don't know which, and I'll never know, barring some sort of objective evidence. But my lack of certainty is irrelevant to whether he did or did not say something.

And speaking of perspectives... my perspective is that much of our "mess we are in globally" can be attributed to a belief that absolutes do not exist. It implies that truth is a myth, or that truth is less important than our feelings in the moment, or that truth should be dismissed if it interferes with a particular objective. This is not a "pro right" or "pro left" position. It is a "pro truth" position.

When I spoke about absloutes I was speaking about perspectives. Yes of course there are things that are facts and truth, so I’m not condoning fake news/science deniers etc, but we have lost so much nuance when it comes to talking about how people perceive things - we can’t even have conversations because person X says their way of thinking is the only way and person Y says their way is the only way of thinking. It’s those absolutes that have led us not even to be able to have civil discussion about different views and perspectives.

What happened between Guillaume and Gabby is a personal thing so we can’t know how both perceived things unless Guillaume gives a point for point perspective on each thing Gabby has said. I believe Gabby when she gives her recollections of what happened and I’m not saying that Gui didn’t say the things she said he did. What I’m saying is that Gui may have perceived what he was saying in a different context than Gabby did in some instances like in relation to when she got pregnant or had depression.

 

[4everchan]

Here's what I think. I think that we humans need to learn to laugh at ourselves, lest we fall into despair.

I can imagine a person in Gabriella's position going through a flight of ideas along the lines, "Well, skate gods, you just unfairly blew up our hopes and dreams by sending down those invisible magic scissors to cut the thread that held my costume together. When do WE get a break? How about leveling the playing field by tossing a lightning bolt in the direction of Tessa Virtue for a change?

Is this mental illness and bad sportsmanship, or is it just human nature?

All this is : speculation on your part Nicely imagined though

 

[el henry]

If my team wins the Super Bowl because the other team can't block for crap and throws unforced pick sixes and the kicker is MIA...

Yes I don't give two hoots if it was a 3-0 disaster game that no one else wanted to watch. Of course this year my team will not win the Super Bowl again so....

In a perfect world do I want to see everyone bring their best to the ice? You betcha. Do I live in a perfect world? No. Too old and too cynical to live in a perfect world. Jack squat to do with standards and everything to do with reality, . So if a skater I like medals because the men are menning, am I sad? No. Do I go through bull feathers that the medal means less? no. You skate the comp you are in.

To the issue at hand, nothing Gabi said about a fleeting thought that her competition might do less well than her, whatever the cause, makes me to lift even the tiniest of eyebrows.

And not because I am a disturbed wacko without standards

 

[peepsquick]

I don't think it's immature at all. And the world does revolve around absolutes. Our entire universe is predicated on them.

If Gabby says "I felt this..." then yes, that is her perspective.

If she says, "He told me this..." then that statement is either true or it is not. He absolutely said it or he absolutely did not. I don't know which, and I'll never know, barring some sort of objective evidence. But my lack of certainty is irrelevant to whether he did or did not say something.

And speaking of perspectives... my perspective is that much of our "mess we are in globally" can be attributed to a belief that absolutes do not exist. It implies that truth is a myth, or that truth is less important than our feelings in the moment, or that truth should be dismissed if it interferes with a particular objective. This is not a "pro right" or "pro left" position. It is a "pro truth" position.

Really? People might wish and strive for absolutes but reality is in shades of grey... thankfully!

 

[4everchan]

If my team wins the Super Bowl because the other team can't block for crap and throws unforced pick sixes and the kicker is MIA...

Yes I don't give two hoots if it was a 3-0 disaster game that no one else wanted to watch. Of course this year my team will not win the Super Bowl again so....

In a perfect world do I want to see everyone bring their best to the ice? You betcha. Do I live in a perfect world? No. Too old and too cynical to live in a perfect world. Jack squat to do with standards and everything to do with reality, . So if a skater I like medals because the men are meaning, am I sad? No. Do I go through bull feathers that the medal means less? no. You skate the comp you are in.

To the issue at hand, because nothing Gabi said about a fleeting thought that her competition might do less well than her, whatever the cause, makes me to lift even the tiniest of eyebrows.

And not because I am a disturbed wacko without standards

And that's how you feel, which I respect. I was brought up in competitive sport and we learned fair play and respect and if once of the kids said I anything ill about a competitor, our coaches certainly didn't tolerate that behavior.

We all have different perspectives and that's fine.

 

[Mathman]

In a perfect world do I want to see everyone bring their best to the ice? You betcha. Do I live in a perfect world?

That is the point that I have been laboring, without great success, to make.

We have to live in the real world because that's the only one we have. In the real world sometimes people don't live up to the lofty standards that we attempt to impose upon them.

 

[Remilia]

Calling someone mentally unwell because they, at the biggest competition of their life, in a moment of upset after a freak incident screwed them over, wished that their opponents would make a mistake, is ridiculous and speaks more to YOUR lack of mental well-being than Gabi's. I'm sorry, but any competitor who claims they've never once wished their opponent would mess up is lying. As a fan, I've certainly hoped for the rivals of my favs to screw up. I remember watching the 2018 Olympics and chanting fall fall fall, when Alina was skating cause I wanted Zhenya to win so I certainly wouldn't judge a skater for hoping for a mistake from their rival. God forbid an athlete want to win.

Also, I'm not at all surprised to see some people implying she's a liar and trying to dismiss her...in this society, in the eyes of many, if a women isn't a perfect victim, they're not a victim at all. I would suggest some of you check yourselves and your biases.

 

[pearly]

Apparently Gabby did an interview with a French station where she "had to cover her ears when they played a recording of Guillaume".

 

[Mathman]

And the world does revolve around absolutes. Our entire universe is predicated on them.

Still, I have to agree with @IceDancingQueen and @peepsquick that the universe of human behavior requires broader context than does the universe that is studied by cosmologists and particle physicists.

We can ask, yes or no, did Guillaume Cizeron utter these words? But did he say them with a boyish grin on his face or with an evil leer? Was he just blurting out some nonsense that he immediately forgot all about, or was it with the deliberate intent of inflicting hurt on his partner?

I think that it is not inappropriate at all to consider the possibility that different people have different interpretations and speculations about such things. Maybe two things really can be true at once. "Wipe that evil leer off your face this instant, you monster." "What evil leer? This is my boyish grin."

 

[TallyT]

Apparently Gabby did an interview with a French station where she "had to cover her ears when they played a recording of Guillaume".

I think with this she is going too far, even if she has a book to sell getting that personal in interviews is not helping.

We can ask, yes or no, did Guillaume Cizeron utter these words. But did he say them with a boyish grin on his face or with an evil leer?

Again, we don't know these people. There are at least eight current male (singles or ID) skaters that I unapologetically find Backpfeifengesicht, and would therefore all too easily believe the worst of if I didn't keep reminding myself that the internet is not a court of law, "they say" is not evidence, and being great at skating doesn't make you a great person.

People can read the book and make up their own minds (so far I have seen, in all the social media algorithmically thrown at me, less than ten people currently pontificating have actually done that, everyone else is speaking from some level of ignorance. Typical world wide webism.)

 

[pearly]

I think with this she is going too far, even if she has a book to sell getting that personal in interviews is not helping.

I keep wondering how you can watch someone skate and comment on it in a professional manner if you can't bear to hear them speak.

 

[fsfs1980]

I think with this she is going too far, even if she has a book to sell getting that personal in interviews is not helping.



Again, we don't know these people. There are at least eight current male (singles or ID) skaters that I unapologetically find Backpfeifengesicht, and would therefore all too easily believe the worst of if I didn't keep reminding myself that the internet is not a court of law, "they say" is not evidence, and being great at skating doesn't make you a great person.

People can read the book and make up their own minds (so far I have seen, in all the social media algorithmically thrown at me, less than ten people currently pontificating have actually done that, everyone else is speaking from some level of ignorance. Typical world wide webism.)

The thing I find odd about this whole thing is that the first I even knew of some of the contents in the book occurred when I saw news reports about Cizeron's reaction to it. It doesn't even seem that the book was being highly publicized, but the coverage of his reaction has been all over the place or did I miss something?

 

[fsfs1980]

I keep wondering how you can watch someone skate and comment on it in a professional manner if you can't bear to hear them speak.

I do think it is good for all involved that she will not be in Milan.

 

[TallyT]

I do think it is good for all involved that she will not be in Milan.

Don't be too hasty, NBC have pulled the plug but any media group that isn't cowed by a cease and desist from a skater may decide the ratings and publicity will be worth it.

I mean, I don't expect it but it would be the first time media looked at a possible public spatfest and went 'yes please!!!'

 

[pearly]

Don't be too hasty, NBC have pulled the plug but any media group that isn't cowed by a cease and desist from a skater may decide the ratings and publicity will be worth it.

I mean, I don't expect it but it would be the first time media looked at a possible public spatfest and went 'yes please!!!'

The NBC deal would have been huge. Eurosport has gone with Tiffany Zahorski after Gabby turned down their offer for NBC. France won't offer anything, I'm sure. Neither will Canada. Her publisher chose the best possible timing for book sales, but has not done her any favors for her career as a commentator at this time.

 

[Chantilly]

I have two things to say regarding Gabriella at the 2018 Olympics:
One: The dress fell apart in practice and in the warm up and now it seems according to her book, it happened before that.

The team was responsible to get it fixed.

That means Gabby herself as well as the costume people and the coaches.

Plenty of costume people in theatre make it happen every night.

Do I have sympathy for what happened! Absolutely yes. But the costume was too heavy for the fasteners plain and simple. The team erred in not addressing it properly.

Second, Gabriella saying she wished V/M would have made a mistake is completely and utterly human. Especially after what transpired in the SD.

Was it bad sportsmanship to utter it publicly...? Meh.

However, let's not pretend that if Scott Moir had said the same thing, he wouldn't have been SKEWERED for saying it on this and the other FS forum. And people would not have been as forgiving.