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- Aug 3, 2007
Ok, now I got it.
Free dance
- Thread starter cocovica
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- Oct 30, 2006
I cannot say who I work for or own personal experiance I have had, but let's just: "I know it when I see it". Between the recent conflict in Gaza which several ISU offiicals asked that the Israelis stay home as a result of and the nonesense with Morozov, (I had read all of the legal documentation pertaining to the case, and he is full of _______ and truly a bastard.) All of these factors have in impact of the judges, Israeli skaters will always face anti-Semitism in past and in the present, we have fought it before and we will fight it again.
I fight anti-Semitism for a living I know how powerful it is, whats worse I have seen and personally felt the harm it can cause.
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2006
If the Zaretskis are offered a bid by the ISU, the Israelis will take it, in Jewish and Israeli culture, there is no greater honor than bearing the colors of Israel and representing Israel in the worlds showcase no matter how odds are against us and them.
I can't comment on the issues you exposed in the first part of your post because I don't have any deeper insight into the subject and I don't want to speculate.
But to say that Israeli skaters will always and have always faced antisemitism is inappropiate generalization. I don't want to say that it doesn't happen every once in a while(which is totally unacceptable) but it's not that it's dominating.
Regarding what you said about fighting antisemitism, I can say from personal experience that fight isn't necessarily the most effective method. Dialogue is a way to decrease this but complaining in a not very constructive way isn't. Raising awareness is important but you won't achieve anything that leads you to an advance with exclusive blaming.
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- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
I have a really bad feeling that some sort of ugly argument is going to erupt in this thread regarding the political underpinnings of the Zaretskis marks, so I just wanted to leave a little post that encourages us all to be civil and accepting of viewpoints different from our own.
I don't think anyone here is condoning Anti-Semitism in any way; I know I sure am not. I applaud those who work on behalf of eradicating this prejudice--like cloudkicker09--and all other prejudices, too. Please continue to work for social justice in all its forms.
I think what Alicja and some others are getting at is that the Zaretskis are not SO INCREDIBLY OUTSTANDING among their peers that lower scores would be laughable and completely unjustified. Were they at the level of Delobel/Schoenfelder, for instance, then sure--we'd all see how ridiculous their point totals are. Popular opinion, though, is that they don't have top-level skills in comparison to those ranked above them. There's that darn subjectivity component of skating again. You just can't get around it. We all have opinions, and there are some who just don't find their skating aesthetically pleasing, not because of who the Zaretskis ARE, but simply because they don't enjoy the look of what they DO.
True, charges of racism and Anti-Semitism are very serious, and I trust that those who are making these charges understand the seriousness. On a personal level, I feel very bad for skaters who sink in the rankings; sometimes we forget that these are HUMAN BEINGS, not just athletes. I think the Zaretskis go out there and skate with a whole lot of undeserved baggage on their shoulders. But there can only be one winner.
I hope there is a resolution for their situation; I also hope we can get back to analyzing and discussing the beautiful skating we all saw this afternoon. I'm amazed at what I saw--I really am!
I don't think anyone here is condoning Anti-Semitism in any way; I know I sure am not. I applaud those who work on behalf of eradicating this prejudice--like cloudkicker09--and all other prejudices, too. Please continue to work for social justice in all its forms.
I think what Alicja and some others are getting at is that the Zaretskis are not SO INCREDIBLY OUTSTANDING among their peers that lower scores would be laughable and completely unjustified. Were they at the level of Delobel/Schoenfelder, for instance, then sure--we'd all see how ridiculous their point totals are. Popular opinion, though, is that they don't have top-level skills in comparison to those ranked above them. There's that darn subjectivity component of skating again. You just can't get around it. We all have opinions, and there are some who just don't find their skating aesthetically pleasing, not because of who the Zaretskis ARE, but simply because they don't enjoy the look of what they DO.
True, charges of racism and Anti-Semitism are very serious, and I trust that those who are making these charges understand the seriousness. On a personal level, I feel very bad for skaters who sink in the rankings; sometimes we forget that these are HUMAN BEINGS, not just athletes. I think the Zaretskis go out there and skate with a whole lot of undeserved baggage on their shoulders. But there can only be one winner.
I hope there is a resolution for their situation; I also hope we can get back to analyzing and discussing the beautiful skating we all saw this afternoon. I'm amazed at what I saw--I really am!
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
^^^ I agree with the whole post above.
Now, let's try to get this back to the overall discussion of the FD of the 2009 European Championships.
Some thoughts on the last group:
Pechalat/Bourzat: I haven't watched their FD before today, I really enjoyed it. Fabian almost went down right in the beginning. This team seems to have a thing for costume changes during the dance
. Too bad they didn't medal
Faiela/Scali: they were slow today, but I think, overall, the siver medal was well deserved. Glad they don't have those tears drawn on their faces anymore.
Kerrs: YES ! They did good, I love this program, but after watching it, I didn't think they would hold on to the 3rd place. I'm a little on the fence wether they should be 3rd or 4th. It was close anyway, I really happy they got a medal, John's reaction was great.
Carron/Jost: I didn't really get this program. There's definetively potential here, I think the final placement was fair...
K/N (sorry, can't write their names from memory...): totally deserver victory. Their style is not my cup of tea, I once again hated the costume, but I've got to admit that, with those big and acrobatic moves, that they are impressive.
What a great competition! And two of the big names weren't even in it...
Fantastic reaction from the crowd.
If there's a lesson to be taken from this competition (and to this season in general) is that the writing is not on wall.
Now, let's try to get this back to the overall discussion of the FD of the 2009 European Championships.
Some thoughts on the last group:
Pechalat/Bourzat: I haven't watched their FD before today, I really enjoyed it. Fabian almost went down right in the beginning. This team seems to have a thing for costume changes during the dance
. Too bad they didn't medalFaiela/Scali: they were slow today, but I think, overall, the siver medal was well deserved. Glad they don't have those tears drawn on their faces anymore.
Kerrs: YES ! They did good, I love this program, but after watching it, I didn't think they would hold on to the 3rd place. I'm a little on the fence wether they should be 3rd or 4th. It was close anyway, I really happy they got a medal, John's reaction was great.
Carron/Jost: I didn't really get this program. There's definetively potential here, I think the final placement was fair...
K/N (sorry, can't write their names from memory...): totally deserver victory. Their style is not my cup of tea, I once again hated the costume, but I've got to admit that, with those big and acrobatic moves, that they are impressive.
What a great competition! And two of the big names weren't even in it...
Fantastic reaction from the crowd.
If there's a lesson to be taken from this competition (and to this season in general) is that the writing is not on wall.
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I totally agree with Alicja and icedancedevotee!
I feel sad for Zaretski's, but I don't think they were robbed. The Technical Callers have been extremely strict since last season, and Zaretskis are hardly the first skaters to suffer from severe deductions. Kimmie, Miki, Yukari, Mirai and many other skaters have been treated just as harshly.
This is also not the first case when a skater have been punished for something that other judges/TCs thought fine. Johnny's and Brian's "lips, Brian's vocals in SP, Miki's 3-3s, Fumie's Lutz, Mira's jumps have not received deductions for a long time, only to be punished at the least appropriate moment (Worlds/GPF/Nationals).
I feel sad for Zaretski's, but I don't think they were robbed. The Technical Callers have been extremely strict since last season, and Zaretskis are hardly the first skaters to suffer from severe deductions. Kimmie, Miki, Yukari, Mirai and many other skaters have been treated just as harshly.
This is also not the first case when a skater have been punished for something that other judges/TCs thought fine. Johnny's and Brian's "lips, Brian's vocals in SP, Miki's 3-3s, Fumie's Lutz, Mira's jumps have not received deductions for a long time, only to be punished at the least appropriate moment (Worlds/GPF/Nationals).
I like your post.I hope this will lead into an informative, enriching dialogue, not into an ugly argument. As I pointed out before I think dialogue is the key to a lot of things in life.
To clarify my previous post, I must say that I didn't comment on the quality of skating of the Zaretskis. They are not my favourites, but I don't like them less than a lot of other teams and they are definitely not my bathroom break.
My intention was not to offend anybody but express my mixed feeling about throwing in words like racism and antisemitism into this thread because I believe it's dangerous to overuse those words or apply them without detailed explanations to any subjects.
Now on the skating which I thought was perfectly wonderful tonight. My personal highlights were:
Cappelini/Lanotte: When I first saw this program I totally disliked it because I thought it didn't show off their power and expression. But today I absolutely loved it, I think they portrayed the bright and the dark side very well.
The Kerrs: Wow. I'm still amazed. I kept my fingers crossed during their performance and I remember taking a deep breath after every element. They so deserve this medal.
Khokhlova/Novitski: First of all, I need to say that I really like her OD dress( I love green), I just wish Sergei would wear something that complemented it well!
I actually like their FD program a lot. Probably because I love Rachmaninov... They had super-deep edges at some points! And their acrobatic moves and lift are stunning...
Cappelini/Lanotte: When I first saw this program I totally disliked it because I thought it didn't show off their power and expression. But today I absolutely loved it, I think they portrayed the bright and the dark side very well.
The Kerrs: Wow. I'm still amazed. I kept my fingers crossed during their performance and I remember taking a deep breath after every element. They so deserve this medal.
Khokhlova/Novitski: First of all, I need to say that I really like her OD dress( I love green), I just wish Sergei would wear something that complemented it well!
I actually like their FD program a lot. Probably because I love Rachmaninov... They had super-deep edges at some points! And their acrobatic moves and lift are stunning...
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- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
The skating WAS wonderful. This is the first season in a long, long, long time where I can think of a big handful of dance teams that I'd love to see win Worlds.
For the past few seasons, I thought that everyone was starting to look the same in the FD, and, thus, that the FD was getting boring. But this year--such variety! Drama, whimsy, sophistication, edginess, roughness, softness. . . classical music, contemporary music. . . it's so hard to pick a favorite! Even programs that I didn't initially like--K/N's comes to mind--are growing on me (I really hated that tutu in the earlier part of the season, but now it seems PERFECT for their dance).
And just think: Europeans didn't have either of the D/S teams, and no Belbin/Agosto, Virtue/Moir, or Davis/White. Worlds is going to be amazing!
For the past few seasons, I thought that everyone was starting to look the same in the FD, and, thus, that the FD was getting boring. But this year--such variety! Drama, whimsy, sophistication, edginess, roughness, softness. . . classical music, contemporary music. . . it's so hard to pick a favorite! Even programs that I didn't initially like--K/N's comes to mind--are growing on me (I really hated that tutu in the earlier part of the season, but now it seems PERFECT for their dance).
And just think: Europeans didn't have either of the D/S teams, and no Belbin/Agosto, Virtue/Moir, or Davis/White. Worlds is going to be amazing!
I agree with icedancedevotee message entirely.
My point, when I was wondering what is this whole hoopla with the Zaretki's was because I consider them just another ice dance team, nothing special. Yes they have been 9th at worlds last year, but this year they haven't looked as good and they seem undertrained. There is certainly a reason for it, due to their ice time issues ( I am talking about their lawsuit).
This concept that all teams have to climb the ladder continously is a little old style (protocol judging)...which I hated. This is a sport and like in any sport, the athletes can be in form or not, better prepared or not, could be defeated or not. What was happening in the 70's was not a true sport, let's be honest. there has been a huge progress made in the last few years as far as judging is concerned, so I am not going to question immediately a result, if this is out of norm, because there are definitely fairer results these days than 20 tears ago or so.
My point, when I was wondering what is this whole hoopla with the Zaretki's was because I consider them just another ice dance team, nothing special. Yes they have been 9th at worlds last year, but this year they haven't looked as good and they seem undertrained. There is certainly a reason for it, due to their ice time issues ( I am talking about their lawsuit).
This concept that all teams have to climb the ladder continously is a little old style (protocol judging)...which I hated. This is a sport and like in any sport, the athletes can be in form or not, better prepared or not, could be defeated or not. What was happening in the 70's was not a true sport, let's be honest. there has been a huge progress made in the last few years as far as judging is concerned, so I am not going to question immediately a result, if this is out of norm, because there are definitely fairer results these days than 20 tears ago or so.
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
^ I really like this team too. Jana is so charming on the ice. Her FD costume is really great. I didn't like this FD when they first performed it in CoC. Now I think it's amazing!
And unlike some other posters, I don't think they are overrated at all. In fact, I think they were the underrated Russian team until this season.
And unlike some other posters, I don't think they are overrated at all. In fact, I think they were the underrated Russian team until this season.
People need to make sure that the Zaretski's lifts didn't go over the time limit, which is the most common reason for deductions in "clean" program, before claiming politics/racism.
Congrats to K&N. They seem to have listened to their critics and polished themselves up and added more choreographic detail in between the elements and the footwork sequences were sharper than last year. The program is still a tad bit more open than I like, but not so much that it bothers me like last year's FD did. I still think that at their best Del/Schoe, V&M, and Dom/Shab are stronger, but the dance field is so odd this season with all the injuries that I think K&N have firmly established themselves as gold medal contenders at worlds. If this was B&A or V&M people would already be declaring them world champs.
Even with a few small glitches I thought F&S were really fluid and had the best designed and most interpretive program with the elements and choreography melding together really well. If anything I thought a few of the PCS were on the conservative side. I really feel deserve everything they've achieved the last two seasons.
I'm glad P&B got second in the FD, but I feel for them for losing out on bronze becuase their FD has so much more choreographic detail than the Kerrs whose FD features them skating back and forth for the whole last minute just doing lifts. The .05 on Choreography doesn't really reflect the difference between the two teams and cost P&B the bronze. The one judge that gave the Kerrs 8.00 and above on all the PCS was far more questionable than the judges that gave K&N all 8.00 and above. Kudos to the judge that dropped the Kerrs into the 6 range on linking footwork/movement.
Also the Kerrs seriously need to learn to do twizzles. I don't know what they were doing on the second set, but the wild arm flapping, lack of unison, grinding to a near halt, and poor free leg position weren't helping. I don't understand the judge that gave that a +1 on the GOE or the judges that gave it the base value. Only two judges correctly gave a negative GOE. Ridiculous.
P&B desperately need a better OD and Carron&Jost should just bring back and modify last years FD becuase this one just doesn't work.
Congrats to K&N. They seem to have listened to their critics and polished themselves up and added more choreographic detail in between the elements and the footwork sequences were sharper than last year. The program is still a tad bit more open than I like, but not so much that it bothers me like last year's FD did. I still think that at their best Del/Schoe, V&M, and Dom/Shab are stronger, but the dance field is so odd this season with all the injuries that I think K&N have firmly established themselves as gold medal contenders at worlds. If this was B&A or V&M people would already be declaring them world champs.
Even with a few small glitches I thought F&S were really fluid and had the best designed and most interpretive program with the elements and choreography melding together really well. If anything I thought a few of the PCS were on the conservative side. I really feel deserve everything they've achieved the last two seasons.
I'm glad P&B got second in the FD, but I feel for them for losing out on bronze becuase their FD has so much more choreographic detail than the Kerrs whose FD features them skating back and forth for the whole last minute just doing lifts. The .05 on Choreography doesn't really reflect the difference between the two teams and cost P&B the bronze. The one judge that gave the Kerrs 8.00 and above on all the PCS was far more questionable than the judges that gave K&N all 8.00 and above. Kudos to the judge that dropped the Kerrs into the 6 range on linking footwork/movement.
Also the Kerrs seriously need to learn to do twizzles. I don't know what they were doing on the second set, but the wild arm flapping, lack of unison, grinding to a near halt, and poor free leg position weren't helping. I don't understand the judge that gave that a +1 on the GOE or the judges that gave it the base value. Only two judges correctly gave a negative GOE. Ridiculous.
P&B desperately need a better OD and Carron&Jost should just bring back and modify last years FD becuase this one just doesn't work.
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
Just watched Khoklova/Novitski's FD. Is anyone else in love with Jana Khoklova like I am? She is so athletic and graceful at the same time. Not to mention the best dressed one out there.
What I like about her is she just seems so darn CUTE: like she's a perky, fun person to be around. She also seems humble, and not at all like she thinks she's better than the other ladies she competes against. I know that somebody somewhere gave her the "diva" nickname, but to me she seems like a lovely person who works hard and is respectful of her competitors.
And yeah, I'm really starting to dig her tutu!
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
I totally agree with you. I could never figure out why they always seems to be in the shadow of D/S, when K/N seem to have a lot more to offer, certainly in terms of originality and a distinct look. And K/N aren't even one of my particular favorites!
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
I agree. I'm quite skeptical as to whether it really is anti-semitism or simply a violation of CoP rules. If there really is such politics involved, then that really is atrocious, and someone should have to answer for it. Judges/ Technical controllers should not unfairly penalize a skater based on their country's politics. However, all this outrage is really premature. Let's wait to see proof that it really was racism before we start ranting.
I really liked their FD the past two seasons. I know some people on this board don't quite ''get'' them, buy they have great ideas and are really expressive skaters. I like their OD best though. It's so cute and entertaining.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
I was never much into dance before but this season has been wonderful. It's really enjoyable to see the teams coming up with such different concepts and styles; the final group last night offered amazing variety, I'm sure it must've been very difficult to judge!
I can think of at least five teams I'd love to see get a medal at Worlds based on their skating so far.
I think she's marvelous. I didn't like their OD last season - found it a bit vulgar in parts - but I think they did absolutely the right thing in picking a classical piece for their FD, and they looked wonderful performing it last night. Yes, it's more acrobatics than dance in parts, but they made it work.Just watched Khoklova/Novitski's FD. Is anyone else in love with Jana Khoklova like I am? She is so athletic and graceful at the same time. Not to mention the best dressed one out there
I don't like the green tutu, though. The only good things I can say about it is that a. his jacket is worse than her tutu and b. at least it's better than the monstrosity Yuko Kawaguchi wears in the LP.
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- Joined
- Feb 4, 2008
Do you know where we can find the details on line?
Whee that was some great ice dancing last night, I'm still in awe! Congratulations to Jana and Sergei for winning their first European championship! Really liked their FD performance, very deserved victory!
OTOH I was not always pleaed with the judging, the most blatant example were Pechalat/Bourzat. I have nothing against them, but I honestly don't see why they placed second in the free. It was a good FD, but compared to how Faeilla/Scali and the Kerrs skated, they should have been behind them, and I'm actually glad they were overall, because those two teams were so amazing. And they got 6 points more in PCS than Capellini/Lanotte, which is a crime IMO. The Italians were so outstanding they would have deserved a much higher score, the way they interpreted this music was touching and flat out gorgeous, so I really don't get the judging.
Same for Faeilla/Scali, they created such a melancholic atmosphere but it was still an entertaining perfomance, I really couldn't take my eyes off off them for a second. Stunning performance!
And of course the Kerrs were great as always, although I found their FD a bit hectic from time to time, but loved it overall! Congrats for the bronze, very well deserved!
Not to forget Zadorohniuk/Verbillo, I must say I loved their FD, but maybe they should get a coach who has more time for them so they can improve even more, there's great potential in this team!
Overall, amazing competition, can't wait for worlds!
OTOH I was not always pleaed with the judging, the most blatant example were Pechalat/Bourzat. I have nothing against them, but I honestly don't see why they placed second in the free. It was a good FD, but compared to how Faeilla/Scali and the Kerrs skated, they should have been behind them, and I'm actually glad they were overall, because those two teams were so amazing. And they got 6 points more in PCS than Capellini/Lanotte, which is a crime IMO. The Italians were so outstanding they would have deserved a much higher score, the way they interpreted this music was touching and flat out gorgeous, so I really don't get the judging.
Same for Faeilla/Scali, they created such a melancholic atmosphere but it was still an entertaining perfomance, I really couldn't take my eyes off off them for a second. Stunning performance!
And of course the Kerrs were great as always, although I found their FD a bit hectic from time to time, but loved it overall! Congrats for the bronze, very well deserved!
Not to forget Zadorohniuk/Verbillo, I must say I loved their FD, but maybe they should get a coach who has more time for them so they can improve even more, there's great potential in this team!
Overall, amazing competition, can't wait for worlds!
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