And if Stephane Lambiel came back?

[life684]

I don't think he needs that motivation, he surpassed Yagudin already, he got a silver as well, while Alexei didn't. QUOTE]

You're kidding! Plush lost to Yagudin when he was given that controversial silver medal over Tim Goebel at 2002 Olys

:scratch: Tim Goebel was the most boring skater to medal in last 20 years. he would't survive present system, especially with his level 0 step sequence.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe[/B], I'm not saying Plush is a better skater. I'm saying he's better equipped to get high scores under the current system.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. Plush does have more going for him and it doesn't mattter what system he is being judged, or what he can now do as a skater. He will win without the arsenal of jumps. It seems the judges love his trick and pose style.

 

[elanna]

You should read my post more carefully, I was referring to their total medal count in the Olympics, Plushenko of course lost to Yagudin in Salt Lake but he got his gold 4 years later inTurin. Is math so difficult ? Plushenko has 2 Olympic medals (one more silver) than Yagudin, that is why I said he surpassed Yagudin.

Yes, according to math, you`re quite right: Plush has 1 medal more than Yags; but I just mean to say that the medal we are talking about was the result of defeat (Yags-winner, Plush-loser). Plush knowes that, and I suspect that it`s the defeat that does not give him rest and makes to think about coming back again and again...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

When I am looking at artistic skating, I am not looking at Medals.

 

[Buttercup]

You should read my post more carefully, I was referring to their total medal count in the Olympics, Plushenko of course lost to Yagudin in Salt Lake but he got his gold 4 years later inTurin. Is math so difficult ? Plushenko has 2 Olympic medals (one more silver) than Yagudin, that is why I said he surpassed Yagudin.

Yes, according to math, you`re quite right: Plush has 1 medal more than Yags; but I just mean to say that the medal we are talking about was the result of defeat (Yags-winner, Plush-loser). Plush knowes that, and I suspect that it`s the defeat that does not give him rest and makes to think about coming back again and again...

Just to add to this, I think it's obvious both were excellent skaters with great results; Plushenko with more medals in his career by virtue of sticking around longer. But I would guess that both viewed SLC as their biggest competition since it was the only Olympics in which they went head to head, and both were miles ahead of the rest of the field. And there's no denying Yagudin won that one - convincingly. So you could say that he won the one that counted the most.

When I am looking at artistic skating, I am not looking at Medals.

You're not, but Plushenko might be .

 

[seniorita]

When I am looking at artistic skating, I am not looking at Medals.

We disagree about plush artistic skills but i totally agree on that

As for medals , I m sure plush has not lost his sleep because of Slc and I hardly say he could feel loser a 19 years old skater with silver in Olympics, and being out of podium only once since 1998 up until 2006. He has said the fall in sp haunted him for some time, but it was his first Olympics and he was more newbie.
Being a plushy fan, I m sure Yag would have won in SLC even if plush was clean in Sp, because Yag's Sp was better. The competition between them two would have been more intense but unless Yag made major mistakes in his lp under pressure - if plush was second after sp-i dont see plush could have won. Unless he made olympic histiry with 4-3-3 and judges went ultra happy.
Controversial silver..I m trying hard to remember Goebel's Lp against Carmen that night but the only time i ve heard that controversy is from Goebel fans and not all of them.

How a thread of stephan became a Yag-Plush phantom rival?

 

[Buttercup]

How a thread of stephan became a Yag-Plush phantom rival?

It might have been my fault. I was wondering many posts ago if Stephane's would be like Plushenko's comeback (i.e. always rumored, never to occur). I think it just kind of snowballed into a discussion of Lambiel vs. Plushenko if both were to return. I'm pretty sure I was the one who first brought up Yagudin, too. Sorry about all that .

The "controversial silver" - if you think Plushenko should have been further down after the mistake in his SP, then he wouldn't have been in a position to win silver with a 2nd-place free skate, and the medal becomes controversial. I don't think anyone's arguing the LPs were controversial.

 

[seniorita]

I'm pretty sure I was the one who first brought up Yagudin, too. Sorry about all that .

I was joking about that
Ok, but Goebel was in better position after sp so he could fight, and Plushenko in sp fell in quad and did nothing else wrong (except the costume) , so he got 5.3-5.5, i m sure judges enjoyed plushenko more (so did I) but isnt it 0.4 deduction ok? maybe i m bit biased here, am I?

 

[Buttercup]

Goebel was in better position after sp so he could fight, and Plushenko in sp fell in quad and did nothing else wrong (except the costume) , so he got 5.3-5.5, i m sure judges enjoyed plushenko more (so did I) but isnt it 0.4 deduction ok? maybe i m bit biased here, am I?

Well, to beat Plushenko overall with a 3rd place free, Goebel would have needed Plushenko to come in 6th or lower in the SP. The skaters in 5th and 6th after the SP were Alexander Abt and Todd Eldredge. I can't seem to recall anything about Edlredge's program, but I definitely watched Abt making mistakes, though not falling. Also, FWIW, Sasha had a much more attractive costume and a nicer haircut. So I really don't know . Anyway, I don't remember the non-Yagudin performances that well...

And to tie it to this thread, Wikipedia tells me that Stephane Lambiel was 16th in the SP at SLC (Joubert was 17th and KvdP was 13th). I don't think he should have placed ahead of Plushy in that one .

 

[seniorita]

I m not used to Abt being called with his first name, so when you said Sasha i thought Cohen and before rereading your post and i was really puzzled thinking you compared plush bowl haircut with hers, cause she also skated Carmen ...
Van de Perren is since 2002???
So he and Joubert will have been in 3 Olympics??Who else...?Plushy can go also then.

 

[Buttercup]

I thought Cohen and before rereading your post and i was really puzzled thinking you compared plush bowl haircut with hers, cause she also skated Carmen ...

I wasn't crazy about her costume, either . But I'm not a fan of most of her outfits, and she picked a really hideous one when she was on Project Runway.

Van de Perren is since 2002???
So he and Joubert will have been in 3 Olympics??Who else...?Plushy can go also then.

Active skaters who skated at SLC, according to Wikipedia: of the men, Kevin, Brian, and Changjiang Li. In the ladies, Fumie Suguri and Julia Sebestyen. Pairs: Pang/Tong and the Zhangs; Aliona Savchenko, Anabelle Langlois and Stanislav Morozov (but not with their current partners). Dance: Del/Schoe, F/S and Fraser/Lukanin.

Stephane Lambiel was in his second year doing senior events during the 2002 Olympic season, having debuted at 2001 Euros (he also skated in the exhibition at 1997 Worlds in Lausanne as the Swiss novice champion). KvdP was in his third season. They both also did junior events when they started out.

Fun facts: The highest finish of any of these skaters at SLC was by Julia Sebestyen (8th). Julia is also the only active skater left from the Nagano Olympics (I think).

 

[soogar]

I'd love to see Stephane return. With the way skating has been for the past few years, I don't think that anyone is a lock for the gold medal.

As for Yags/Plush- Yags is tops even if Plush has won more Olympic medals. Yags won SLC with memorable programs- absolutely perfect and even non-fans remember them- and IMO had his memorable performance/program happen at the Olympics. Plush was hanging on until 2006 and his programs were not that inspired. I think it was more difficult in Plush's case to hang around for another 4 years after the build up to 2002 (with the rivalry and all).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just to add to this, I think it's obvious both were excellent skaters with great results; Plushenko with more medals in his career by virtue of sticking around longer. But I would guess that both viewed SLC as their biggest competition since it was the only Olympics in which they went head to head, and both were miles ahead of the rest of the field. And there's no denying Yagudin won that one - convincingly. So you could say that he won the one that counted the most.

I think Yags was around longer and not doing very well. Kulic was the big boy then, and he left after the Olys and Yags expected to be numero uno. When Plush arrived Mischin saw the potential in him. Yags left with vengeance in his heart.

You're not, but Plushenko might be .

re: ARTISTIC SKATING. It's also in the mind of the beholder and, of course, the Rusophiles. For me 'selling' the program is not art! As I said he knows how to woo the judges with this simplistic of all show biz tricks.

 

[Tonichelle]

Tim Goebel was the most boring skater to medal in last 20 years. he would't survive present system, especially with his level 0 step sequence.

there weren't levels in 2002.. and footwork was ignored anyway. it's not like plushy or yags had anything more difficult.

 

[Medusa]

I think Yags was around longer and not doing very well. Kulic was the big boy then, and he left after the Olys and Yags expected to be numero uno. When Plush arrived Mischin saw the potential in him. Yags left with vengeance in his heart.

He became Junior World Champion in 1996, I don't think he was even 16 back then. The year later, 1997, he already won Bronze at his very first Senior World Championships - at the tender age of 17, during his entire career he never placed that low, Bronze, again at the World Championships. At the age of 18 he became World Champion - the second youngest men's World Champion of all time (and no, Plushenko isn't the youngest). So I really don't know at which time Yagudin "didn't do very well".

Plushenko sticked around for 9 senior seasons, Yagudin for 6 senior seasons. Plushenko became Junior World Champion in 1997, he was only 14 then. But it also took him till the age of 18 to become Senior World Champion.

re: ARTISTIC SKATING. It's also in the mind of the beholder and, of course, the Rusophiles. For me 'selling' the program is not art! As I said he knows how to woo the judges with this simplistic of all show biz tricks.

:scratch:
Well, as you said - in the mind of the beholder.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think footwork was ignored in the previous years. It was used as a confirmation of the clean elements that the skater executed. When footwork came into being with scoring, we got a lot arms going in all directions, but the feet were the same. And Yags did do the Sonia Henie toe-pick footwork and it really was new for his era. It sold big!

 

[Tonichelle]

yes it "sold big" but even he said it wasn't that difficult... it just looked cool... that's all I'm getting at.

skaters that had difficult footwork didn't get any higher marks for their footwork. it was just a move in the field in most aspects

 

[seniorita]

You know plush was offered to switch to ballet at early age?He has the body lines and long hands (not flail arms comment pleasee) and i remember plush selling to the audience even at 16, he couldnt do it on purpose back then with his tricks, i think it is just him, he can ultra speed from 0 to 60mph and he has strong legs and has said he can look at spectators even when he is competing, so I think he could not skate like stephan and the opposite, it is his style and either you like it or not, as other people may dont like lambiel's fragile knees style of skating (i cant explain it in english but me I love it). I dont think it has anything to do with his nationality, at least for me.
Pleasing the audience is a talent in my opinion, as audience is not an allien body, it is you, me and everybody else.

 

[Mathman]

Yagudin's Winter footwork blew the roof off the place. Everyone rushed to Morozov, including Michelle Kwan, begging him to do it for them, too. They all ended up looking foolish, especially Joubert.

As Toni says, under the CoP Yagudin's footwork would be a level 1. That's what I don't like about the CoP. It rewards crap and punishes genius.

I only halfway agree with Joe, though. Yes, CoP footwork gives you extra points (instead of taking away points, as it should) for windmilling your arms and bobbing your torso up and down. But I think the skaters ARE doing other things with their feet -- stopping, starting, stuttering, racking up the points for each change of edge -- and that's why the footwork sequences nowadays are so slow and boring, compared to Yagudin's. (Kurt Brwoning made the same comment on the CBC coverage of Four Continents.)

 

[Tonichelle]

I wouldn't call Yag's straightline genius... it's entertaining, but other than that...