Who Could Do A Program With No Jumps...

[Mathman]

Without jumps? What else are they supposed to rely on? Spins and turns/edge changes for 3 minutes? I dont understand. Anyways...

To me, the challenge that figure skating faces is this. There are a hundred sports out there competing for viewers' entertainment dollar. What does figure skating offer that is unique?

Jumps? Every sport has jumps. Why wpuld anyone become a fan pf figure skating when that customrer can follow poll vaulting instead?

Well, figure skaters spin. Figure skaters glide. Figure skaters do intricate steps and turns on the ice. Figure skaters present choreography. Fifure skaters interpret music.

 

[Mathematician]

To me, the challenge that figure skating faces is this. There are a hundred sports out there competing for viewers' entertainment dollar. What does figure skating offer that is unique?

Jumps? Every sport has jumps. Why wpuld anyone become a fan pf figure skating when that customrer can follow poll vaulting instead?

Well, figure skaters spin. Figure skaters glide. Figure skaters do intricate steps and turns on the ice. Figure skaters present choreography. Fifure skaters interpret music.

Exactly. So choreography is integral, since as unique and beautiful as spins and steps are, you cant do them for over 3 minutes straight. At least, thats not optimal. You included choreography and musicality in your list though, so seems like we agree.

 

[TontoK]

As usual, my focus is more on the men.

Later era Jason Brown. Later era Todd Eldridge. Professional era Brian Boitano.

Not early era Jason, and not Kevin.

My "yes" candidates have/had incredible power and projected strength just with basic stroking. There's a quiet confidence which reinforces a maturity of presentation.

Also a "yes" to Toller Cranston, because everything he did was interesting.

 

[Mathman]

Exactly. So choreography is integral, since as unique and beautiful as spins and steps are, you cant do them for over 3 minutes straight.

If I had my druthers I would cut back on the parade of quads and triples that dominate skating in the current era. Replace a few of them with Russian split jumps, stag jumps, etc.

Plus, there is nothing wrong with a well-timed double jump or a delayed single Axel, as were admired by audiences in the time of John Curry and Robin Cousins.

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[Rebecca Moose]

Bring back school figures and call it a day.

 

[Mathman]

Bring back school figures and call it a day.

I wish they would bring back ice sculpture contests.

One time ABC television was broadcsting an important event that Michelle Kwan was expected to win. As dead-air filler between the performances they showed an ice sculptor working away at the figure of a skater. After the last performance, the completed sculpture was revealed -- Michelle Kwan!

Unfortunately for ABC, she lost.

 

[PaulE]

On one of my forays into YouTube I was offered this video of Taryn Jurgensen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IAY7dvN7Y4. She does one jump but I think it is only a single or a waltz jump. I don't recall ever hearing of her. She represented Thailand at 2011 Four Continents but did not qualify for the Free Skate.

 

[Karoltyna]

Bring back school figures and call it a day.

I would watch it until my eyes sored...

 

[dorispulaski]

Gary Beacom - no jumps -standing ovation




And then there was Dorothy Hamill doing the Vioxx commercials.

 

[Magill]

If I had my druthers I would cut back on the parade of quads and triples that dominate skating in the current era. Replace a few of them with Russian split jumps, stag jumps, etc.

Plus, there is nothing wrong with a well-timed double jump or a delayed single Axel, as were admired by audiences in the time of John Curry and Robin Cousins.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

... delayed single Axels were regularly admired by audiences even in these much more recent times of Yuzuru Hanyu and became one of his several signature moves, although in galas only .... as I understand, due to regulations that would count a delayed single Axel as a single jump in the program and punish the skater's score accordingly, is that right?

 

[Mathman]

... as I understand, due to regulations that would count a delayed single Axel as a single jump in the program and punish the skater's score accordingly, is that right?

I think that's right. A drawback to the IJS which killed this wonderful move as part of a competitive program. This is going backward. Cool stuff like this should be encouraged by the ISU, not forbidden.

The same problem with IJS rules that discourage fast spins in one position, extended spirals, etc., that used to comprise the heart and soul of figure skating.

 

[4everchan]

I think that's right. A drawback to the IJS which killed this wonderful move as part of a competitive program. This is going backward. Cool stuff like this should be encouraged by the ISU, not forbidden.

The same problem with IJS rules that discourage fast spins in one position, extended spirals, etc., that used to comprise the heart and soul of figure skating.

How are extended spirals discouraged ? They can be part of the choreo sequence or anywhere in the program. They are not necessarily valued for what they are, but they are not discouraged the way simple but fast and centered spins were discouraged. Keegan Messing is the perfect example of a guy who could spin for 6.0s but only for level 2 in IJS

What was also discouraged in IJS that was so popular with fans are step sequences with simple but fast steps, in straight line, from one end of the rink to the other. These step sequences, some of which are often mentioned as iconic (Yagudin's) would receive very low level nowadays as they are only using simple steps, almost no complex turns etc... The step sequences of today have the skaters meandering aimlessly in all directions at once to achieve the required turns. Only a few skaters manage to do them well and in a connected way with the music.
I think the ISU was right in demanding harder turns and moves and full body motions and variety of directions, especially as figures are gone. It's great to demand that skaters can achieve all these skills during the step sequences...but these are rarely as exciting to watch as the very well timed and characteristic step sequences from the past.

Instead of killing the second step sequence... and replacing it with a "moves in the field" choreo sequence, they should have replaced it with a choreo step sequence, straight line or circle or even serpentine (like in the old times) but without any other requirement than fitting the music.

Scroll up a few posts to see the Ararat step sequences in Buttle's programs, how great and effective they are... and how well connected to the music they are... that was before the IJS messed them up for good.

 

[Karoltyna]

How are extended spirals discouraged ? They can be part of the choreo sequence or anywhere in the program. They are not necessarily valued for what they are, but they are not discouraged the way simple but fast and centered spins were discouraged. Keegan Messing is the perfect example of a guy who could spin for 6.0s but only for level 2 in IJS

What was also discouraged in IJS that was so popular with fans are step sequences with simple but fast steps, in straight line, from one end of the rink to the other. These step sequences, some of which are often mentioned as iconic (Yagudin's) would receive very low level nowadays as they are only using simple steps, almost no complex turns etc... The step sequences of today have the skaters meandering aimlessly in all directions at once to achieve the required turns. Only a few skaters manage to do them well and in a connected way with the music.
I think the ISU was right in demanding harder turns and moves and full body motions and variety of directions, especially as figures are gone. It's great to demand that skaters can achieve all these skills during the step sequences...but these are rarely as exciting to watch as the very well timed and characteristic step sequences from the past.

Instead of killing the second step sequence... and replacing it with a "moves in the field" choreo sequence, they should have replaced it with a choreo step sequence, straight line or circle or even serpentine (like in the old times) but without any other requirement than fitting the music.

Scroll up a few posts to see the Ararat step sequences in Buttle's programs, how great and effective they are... and how well connected to the music they are... that was before the IJS messed them up for good.

The thing with spirals is that they used to be compulsory element and you had to hold the position log enough. Now they mostly last no longer than 1-2 seconds and tbh they look more like "kick the leg" move, not like a spiral. This year I was truly amazed by how long Jari Kessler held his position and his spiral looked so oldschool.
I still remeber times when touching the ice with anything else than your blades caused penalty, so the choreo sequence consisting mostly of lunges, slides or cartwheels with knees, hands and other bodyparts touching ice is something I will probably never get used to. And I agree, we should get choreo step sequence.

 

[4everchan]

The thing with spirals is that they used to be compulsory element and you had to hold the position log enough. Now they mostly last no longer than 1-2 seconds and tbh they look more like "kick the leg" move, not like a spiral. This year I was truly amazed by how long Jari Kessler held his position and his spiral looked so oldschool.

I know but saying the extended ones are discouraged is not quite true

I still remeber times when touching the ice with anything else than your blades caused penalty, so the choreo sequence consisting mostly of lunges, slides or cartwheels with knees, hands and other bodyparts touching ice is something I will probably never get used to. And I agree, we should get choreo step sequence.

yup.. i am so done with cartwheels sorry for those who love them... you know who you are

 

[Mathman]

How are extended spirals discouraged ?

Extended spirals are discouraged in that they take up a lot of time and do not result in any points. We do not see Brian Boitano-type circumference of the rink spread eagles any more.

I have lost track (actually, I have somewhat lost interest) in keeping up with level features, but I remember not too long ago that "spiral sequences" were expected to present changes of positions -- hence the fan spiral position .

Anyway, I think this thread has veered off from it's original intent. The intent was not to advocate for the elimination of jumps in competitive programs, but rather to celebrate those few skaters who are such breathtaking performers that we would watch them with interest and enthusiasm even with all jumps removed.

 

[Karoltyna]

I know but saying the extended ones are discouraged is not quite true

yup.. i am so done with cartwheels sorry for those who love them... you know who you are

wellp, if an element doesn't give you points, you are discouraged to perform it

 

[DancingCactus]

Well, but we did see several extended spirals in the women's events this year, so maybe they're making a comeback?

 

[gkelly]

Extended spirals are discouraged in that they take up a lot of time and do not result in any points.

When they appear in the Choreo Sequence, they can make a significant positive difference in the GOE. Same for extended spread eagles and Ina Bauers.

When the choreo sequence was first introduced for 2010-11, the men were not required to include any gliding moves (the women were required to include one spiral, although it didn't need to be held long). So at that time the choreo sequence for men could be used as a choreo step sequence and many of the competitors did just that, often end to end in a straight line.

More recently the choreo sequence requirements have been redefined, so we see more variety of highlight moves than just steps or spirals/spread eagles, but fewer steps and less obvious patterns.

I have lost track (actually, I have somewhat lost interest) in keeping up with level features, but I remember not too long ago that "spiral sequences" were expected to present changes of positions -- hence the fan spiral position .

Yes, changing the leg position on the same edge was an available feature. It was not required or "expected." I think that the position you're thinking of was considered as a difficult variation, regardless of whether there was a change from another position on teh same edge, so it was used for that reason as a different kind of feature.

Anyway, I think this thread has veered off from it's original intent. The intent was not to advocate for the elimination of jumps in competitive programs, but rather to celebrate those few skaters who are such breathtaking performers that we would watch them with interest and enthusiasm even with all jumps removed.

There are probably several different ways this thread could be interpreted.

Do we mean show programs or artistic programs (or solo dance programs) that include no jumps -- are we asking which skaters from traditional disciplines can perform compelling programs in those contexts?

Or which skaters would do well in a competitive freeskating event phase that doesn't include jumps?

Or which skaters would be compelling to watch in a practice runthrough where they omitted all the jumps and gave full commitment to the rest of the program?

 

[4everchan]

Extended spirals are discouraged in that they take up a lot of time and do not result in any points. We do not see Brian Boitano-type circumference of the rink spread eagles any more.

Sure. But if a skater has them and doesn't have a quad, they can decide to include them because honestly, since they don't need the 20 seconds to set up that quad, they have time to do them

I have lost track (actually, I have somewhat lost interest) in keeping up with level features, but I remember not too long ago that "spiral sequences" were expected to present changes of positions -- hence the fan spiral position .

Yes. Spiral sequences were an atrocity. I don't miss them at all. Especially in pairs.

Anyway, I think this thread has veered off from it's original intent. The intent was not to advocate for the elimination of jumps in competitive programs, but rather to celebrate those few skaters who are such breathtaking performers that we would watch them with interest and enthusiasm even with all jumps removed.

I am not too sure what the original intent of the thread was considering some of the posts... but let's just say that it's an in between thread, after the last GP and in the week off for GPF... and when we do have too much time on our hands, the same debates come to life : like give me my second step sequence back.

 

[4everchan]

wellp, if an element doesn't give you points, you are discouraged to perform it

ask Adam if that's true i mean, he did perform an element that took points away from him LOL