I don't think Leonova was as bad as some people are writing. I enjoyed her program, tons of enthusiasm and energy that isn't present in other skaters. She connects with the audience well and seemed to have good speed. Her skating skills are not great, but neither are Zhang's and Wagner's.
Ladies Free Skate
- Thread starter chuckm
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Well done, girl :thumbsup:
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No! Isn't it obvious? The USFSA needs a new rivalry - so they instructed Wagner to start it by ignoring Zhang!Maybe she was afraid to get the flu.
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and ESPN gets new rivalry-fluffs to show before their competitions.
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I am so happy for caroline. She had a big disadvantage coming back to juniors in that she could not use her excellent spirals to gain points in the LP and had to use the 3 lutz in the SP, where she gets edge calls.
She showed us once again what a spunky, determined skater she is. 3/3, all her triples landed and ratified. And once again the talks of why she isn't on the world team will being anew.
very disappointed in Elena. I had my hopes up that she would win.
She showed us once again what a spunky, determined skater she is. 3/3, all her triples landed and ratified. And once again the talks of why she isn't on the world team will being anew.
very disappointed in Elena. I had my hopes up that she would win.
I agree, good one
! A new rivalry. Interesting. But you never know what happens in those medal ceremonies, don't skaters sometimes receive very specific instructions about who to shake hands with etc? I didn't see it so I can't really judge..
Wow, even the draw seems to be made-up...I love you, ISU! I'm scared for LA.
Geeez, it seems like ISU has been created just to upset US team in every possible way....
I mean, come on, what is your problem??????
Isn't it obvious? Why are those cheering for Bin Laden mostly from Middle East countries. You'd expect only his country men would be proud of him.
:scratch: I really do not know what you meant by this one.. I dont think it deserves any attention, but... I will try to put some effort in a short explanation (although I am not sure it is worth it). I guess you meant that all Europeans would support each other no matter what. It just shows how little you know about world. Really, a Swiss does not care about a Finnish finishing ahead of Canadian or Japanese. In spite of being on one continent most european countires do not feel particularly connected to each other. Even more - they tend to compete and like to prove that they are better than neighbouring country.
Any way, I guess today, for the first time I will use 'ignore' button... You really made this thread very unpleasent
Troll on Board ??
I haven't watched any of this, but it looks to me that
when an American/Canadian skater/team is in front, it is because they're superior,the best of the best,
when an European (specially Eastern) skater/team is in front, it's because the judgung panel is obviously biased, because those skaters have absolutely nothing of good.
I think the PCS knife cuts both ways...
Both posters, well said!
In general, I am very disappointed with the discussion on this thread... If there is no Mao/Yuna fight, then there is something else - ISU/Europe against US. I really wanted to take part in an interesting discussion, but it seems impossible. And it is only JW. It is scarry to think what will happen on GS after LA.
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snip)
And it is only JW. It is scarry to think what will happen on GS after LA.
Last season the Ice Dancing thread was so vicious I cringed reading some of the posts. Maybe the mods should implement a 101 class in manners on GS.
PCS are going to drop when you are in TENTH after the short program. The judges can't just pretend the short program doesn't matter. While you may not care for Leonova's skating, or think she is sloppy and isn't as good as Zhang (I agree completely), the fact of the matter is that her TWO programs were overall deemed better than Caroline's, which is why she won by a small margin. Caroline won the long program, and rightfully so, but the judges are saying BOTH programs matter, not just one. Or at least that's what I think they are saying.
Look, we all wish PCS would truly be a reflection of a skater's skating skills, choreography, interpretation, etc, and they usually are. BUT, they are also there to give the judges some leeway, so that the skaters who deserve to win actually win! So, I'm sure Leonova's PCS skyrocketed not because she suddenly has amazing choreography or the best skating skills, but because the judges deemed her performances the best this week! And they felt she deserved to place better than someone who only delivered the 10th best short program.
I personally wish they would get rid of all the separate categories for PCS (since we all know the skater with the highest PCS will have had the highest score across all 5 categories whether they deserve it or not) and just call it the "Overall impression" score. That way, the skaters with the best presentation, skating skills, etc, will still be rewarded, but this mark can also fluctuate based on how well everyone skates that day without it seeming strange!
So, let's get rid of PCS, and go back to 6.0. This is exactly what it really is, the overall "impression" from the judges. It was a joke on how they gave choreo., interpretation, presentation, etc.scores when it's obvious that the winner was no better than the Silver or Bronze medalists on those categories. Judges supposed to judge the skaters on that particular performance not against other skaters or previous performances. They have violated the rule by doing that and seems to be acceptable by ISU.
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Ice Dance often gets very vicious, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that you have even less possibilities of looking at it from a rational standpoint.
If it's a completely international event it's always the Russians against the rest of the world, the Russians of course being overmarked and the worst skaters on the entire planet. If it's Europeans it's also Russians against the French, British, Italian - in this case most root for the French etc. But if it's let's say French or Italians against Northern Americans, then the French and even more so the Italians are suddenly horribly overmarked.
At first that really upset me, all the hate and disgust thrown at the European pairs, everytime they were threatening a Northern American pair. But then there was 4CC 2008 with this huge fight Davis / White against Virtue / Moir - and it was just as vicious and nasty as the Europe vs. America threads. Perhaps skating just brings out the vicious side in some people.
I thought it was very strange,too. After all, both of them are supposed to be teammate and they represent this country together. Wagner should be happy that her teammate got on the podium as well. It is really shame for Wagner to show such a bad sportsmanship. And I understand more of rivalry between Caroline and Rachael or Caroline and Mirai. They are more in the same level in terms of clean jumps and smooth skating skill. I can see Wagner improved spins, spiral and speed, but her jumps got really worse this year.
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- Mar 13, 2008
Of course someone is a "cretin" if they don't absolutely adore Caroline :sheesh:
I find her very boring, with poor basics, scary looking jumps, and no speed at all. I'm not going to pretend that she excites me, because she just doesn't. She is the most overrated, over-scored skater I've seen in years. I wish we were still in the era of figures because we wouldn't even be seeing her and her weak basics.
Yup, it's definitely annoying that they refuse to judge choreo, interpretation, etc, as separate categories. The skater with the highest PCS will almost always get the highest score in all five categories... The skater with the second highest PCS will have the second highest score in all five categories, and so on... I don't know why this is, but my guess is time constraints. The judges really do not have very long to come up with their marks. So if it's going to be like that, might as well get rid of the separate categories and have one single score for PCS.
You are right, then it becomes similar to the 6.0 system. But I do think it's important that the skaters get ranked in the proper order. If it's just about who can collect the most points, I don't know if we'll always get the right winner. I really do think it should matter that Caroline was only 10th after the short program. While a computer can't comprehend that, a human judge can. And the only way to really reflect her low short program standing (so that she didn't win over a girl with a 3rd place short and a 2nd place long) was to tweak her PCS (and Leonova's PCS as well). I really don't have any answers as to a better way to do this to make sure the best overall skater is named the winner.
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- Aug 15, 2003
I wanna see some hair pulling!!
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Its not really a disadvantage, as EVERYONE had to follow the same rules. And its not as though she was even the only one who had to change her senior programs to fit the junior requirements. Lots of skaters had to do that. And plenty of flutzers had to do the lutz, but she could have done the double instead of a triple if it was that troublesome for her. If she couldn't handle the differences then she shouldn't have gone.
If Zhang had done TWO 3/3s, landed 8 triples and scored 112, would the judges have given Leonova another 5 points in PCS to overcome the difference? I rather suspect they might....
Anyway, the SP and FS are two separate performances. It isn't fair to the skater who turns in a spectacular performance to ding her FS PCS because she didn't have a good SP. As for Zhang not being in the final group, she was the last skater in the penultimate group, and there was no zamboni break between the two.
Oksana Gozeva skated in the second group and was given huge PCS scores for a very flawed FS (3f, 2a, 3z-fall, 3s, 3z-fall, 2s+2t, 2a^2a), high enough to boost her from 15th place to 7th place. She, too, had a bad SP (two-footed the 3z and fell on the 3f, so had no combo---and her presentation is blah). Apparently what's good for the goose (RUS) isn't good for the gander (USA). Gozeva had two flawed programs, but she moved up as many places as Zhang did.
Anyway, the SP and FS are two separate performances. It isn't fair to the skater who turns in a spectacular performance to ding her FS PCS because she didn't have a good SP. As for Zhang not being in the final group, she was the last skater in the penultimate group, and there was no zamboni break between the two.
Oksana Gozeva skated in the second group and was given huge PCS scores for a very flawed FS (3f, 2a, 3z-fall, 3s, 3z-fall, 2s+2t, 2a^2a), high enough to boost her from 15th place to 7th place. She, too, had a bad SP (two-footed the 3z and fell on the 3f, so had no combo---and her presentation is blah). Apparently what's good for the goose (RUS) isn't good for the gander (USA). Gozeva had two flawed programs, but she moved up as many places as Zhang did.
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