Ladies Free Skate

[museksk8r]

Thanks for posting, Lucky Star! I enjoyed Alena . . . she has an exuberance about her similar to Irina Slutskaya and Elena Sokolova. Beautiful energy and smile! Congratulations, Alena, you deserve the championship! There's a reason there is a SP and a LP. I don't understand the cries of controversy at all. We've seen a very low SP placement affect every other skater's LP PCS scores . . . why should there be an exception for Caroline Zhang?

 

[Medusa]

I simply do not see the justification for Leonova's PCS being 3 points higher than Caroline's---just enough to give her first place.

Well, I for one don't get how this performance by Bingwa Gwen got 6 points less on PCS than Zhang's short program performance. It was flawless except for the extremely telegraphed and downgraded Double Axel. That's what I call a scandal. And just looking at the performance that could be Zhang out there, the style is exactly the same, with no mule-kick and more height on the jumps - and a worse layback position. But a worse layback position doesn't cost you 6 points on PCS (well, perhaps if Dick Button is the judge).

Alena Leonova FS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt6css0WC_E

I actually found that rather enjoyable. There are lots of areas where she can improve, I said that already after Euros - but I like her enthusiasm, the program is very light-hearted, there is no big story or anything, but I think it's enjoyable.

 

[Eurofan]

Seems like Caroline is everyone's favorite wuzrobbed girl this year.

 

[HCOSurfer]

Is Leonova going to senior worlds?

 

[Fashionista]

Wrong. Leonova was credited with landing 5 triples, and well she should be considering her loop was so obviously cheated.

Let's count together. She landed 3 triples in three combinations (flip, salchow, loop), 3Lo, 3F and 3Lz. Please check protocols.
And you seem to know better then judges which jump was cheated and which was not. Good for you.

If you're referring to Caroline's body positions in the air whilst jumping, I'd have to disagree. Her positions are textbook. She also rotates very tightly and quickly - I remember Michelle Kwan commenting on how she admired Tara Lipinski for being able to rotate like that in the air.

Yes, and that's all. Positions in the air and tight rotation. But there're also positions before and after landing and other things which I already wrote about.

 

[Lucky Star]

Is Leonova going to senior worlds?

Yes, she is.

 

[Buttercup]

Let's count together. She landed 3 triples in three combinations (flip, salchow, loop), 3Lo, 3F and 3Lz. Please check protocols.

The solo 3Lo was downgraded. That can't count as a triple. Leonova was lucky not to get hit with lower GOEs on that - and no, I'm not implying that's a conspiracy.

She did get credit for two 3Fs (one in combination), a 3Lz, and 3S (in combination) and 3T (in sequence). So: five triples, one downgrade, and two 2As.

 

[LeCygne]

Yes, and that's all. Positions in the air and tight rotation. But there're also positions before and after landing and other things which I already wrote about.

What's wrong with Caroline's landings?

 

[chuckm]

Is Leonova going to senior worlds?

Yes. She (and Katarina Gerboldt) went to Euros, and both will go to Worlds. Leonova's the most consistent lady the Russians have.

She is probably the only lady out there who's done the GP, Euros, JW and Worlds all in one season.

 

[Fashionista]

If Leonova had a TES even close to Zhang's in the FS, I might agree. But Leonova landed only 5 triples and non-jump elements were nothing special; the total GOE in her FS was only +1.64. Zhang's 3/3 combination got +0.80 GOE and her total GOE was +3.0, despite the flutz deduction.

So I don't understand why Leonova got 6.45 in SS (skating skills) to Zhang's 6.05 in the FS, when Zhang had 7 triples and outstanding non-jump elements to Leonova's 5 triples (with one UR) and average non-jump elements

Please check my previous post and try to count Leonova's triples one more time. I also don't understand why you mix jumps and skating skills.

Typically, all of the other PCS components cluster around the SS score. Since I don't see how Leonova's SS should be considered superior to Zhang's, that's why I think Leonova was majorly gifted with PCS

That's totally wrong, sorry. PCS is not only about SS. Really.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Here is the ISU Components criteria.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

Skating Skills is Page 1.

Flow and effortless glide and Cleanness and sureness of deep edges are some of the criteria. Leonova does not have deep edges, and her jumps were effortfully landed with little flowout.

I simply do not see the justification for Leonova's PCS being 3 points higher than Caroline's---just enough to give her first place.

That's exactly what I mean. The Skating Skills are never mentioned individually. I remember when the CoP first came out, that people were messaging that's the segment which the judges can play around with. Taken as a whole, it can not be quantified and is therefore an opinion segment of the CoP.

 

[Fashionista]

The solo 3Lo was downgraded. That can't count as a triple.

Well, then let us not count Zhang's flutz. Do you know any jump called flutz? I don't. So Zhang made only 6 triples, Leonova 5. Ok, I agree.

 

[Lucky Star]

Yes. She (and Katarina Gerboldt) went to Euros, and both will go to Worlds. Leonova's the most consistent lady the Russians have.

She is probably the only lady out there who's done the GP, Euros, JW and Worlds all in one season.

Actually Katarina will not go to Worlds, because only one skater can represent Russia this year

 

[HCOSurfer]

Well, then let us not count Zhang's flutz. Do you know any jump called flutz? I don't. So Zhang made only 6 triples, Leonova 5. Ok, I agree.

Not really. Caroline made it through all 3 revolutions, thus making her 3Z an actual triple. As for Leonova, we'll see if she gets around the same PCS at worlds as she did here.

 

[Buttercup]

Well, then let us not count Zhang's flutz. Do you know any jump called flutz? I don't. So Zhang made only 6 triples, Leonova 5. Ok, I agree.

Look, it's not my rule. It's the ISU's rule. An underotated triple counts as a bad double; we all know that, and it's fine to disagree. A wrong edge takeoff is a triple, just not a good one. Again, we can argue it all we want, but officially, Zhang had 7 triples and Leonova had 5.

For the record, I still think Alena did enough to win overall.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Is Leonova going to senior worlds?

Why not. She's been through the GPs and Euros. She won't be new to Seniors.

Hasn't everyone (except maybe the Shibutani's) who medaled, skated Senior in this Junior competition?

Brezina, who skated the JGPs did win a Silver at this Junior Worlds, also skated at Euros,. But to me Euros and 4CC do not constitute as a real major comp since only half skate at either Euros or 4CC.

 

[Fashionista]

A wrong edge takeoff is a triple, just not a good one. Again, we can argue it all we want, but officially, Zhang had 7 triples and Leonova had 5.

Well, officially there's 3Lo in the protocol. With a little sign, yes and -GOE. Officially was stated that triple jumps with UR get a value of double jumps with -GOE , that's all.

 

[HCOSurfer]

Well, officially there's 3Lo in the protocol. With a little sign, yes and -GOE. Officially was stated that triple jumps with UR get a value of double jumps with -GOE , that's all.

So then if a jump gets the value of a double jump, doesn't that make it a double?

 

[chuckm]

Let's count together. She landed 3 triples in three combinations (flip, salchow, loop), 3Lo, 3F and 3Lz. Please check protocols.
And you seem to know better then judges which jump was cheated and which was not. Good for you.

Here is Leonova's jump layout, copied directly from the protocol. The ratified triples are in bold:

3F+2T
3Z
3Lo< (counts as a 2Lo with -0.36 GOE)
2A
3F
3S+2T+2Lo
3T^2A

Five triples.

Here is Zhang's jump layout:
3F+3T
3Z+2T
2A
3F
3Lo
3S
3Lo+2T+2Lo

7 triples.

The protocol:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wjc2009/wjc09_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[samba]

Well, then let us not count Zhang's flutz. Do you know any jump called flutz? I don't. So Zhang made only 6 triples, Leonova 5. Ok, I agree.

Aren't you tired??