Japanese and Korean International Relations and History

[shine]

[*]"All Japanese textbooks cover up the history"
[/LIST]
A list of history references in the Japanese textbooks, including the "good" ones and the "bad" ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_textbooks#Current_Issues

Since you brought it up, well, I certainly hope they do not teach this part of the "bad" history. Because it would simply be too much for the young students to take.

 

[fourclover]

Why thank you rallycairn. I really enjoyed attending the event and wanted to share my experience. Btw I loved watching Rachael Flatt, too!

I'm sorry to bring this up, but when statements like the following are made every opportunity possible about Japan's past, regardless of relevance to ongoing topics, I just feel the need to bring some perspective.

• "All Japanese textbooks cover up the history"

A list of history references in the Japanese textbooks, including the "good" ones and the "bad" ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_textbooks#Current_Issues

• "The government has never formally apologised"

A list of apologies by the goverment leaders and Emperor Akihito.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

• "Japanese government leaders should not visit the shrine where war criminals are honoured."

The Japanese are extremely sorry about the terrible crimes. The Japanese also have their own spiritual belief to honour people who fought for their country, no matter how fxxxed up their belief/ brainstorming was. There is simply no place for outsiders to have a say in this nor use this as a political card.

I'll say this frankly. While I feel disgusted when some Japanese right wing idiot politicians make statements to deny/ distort the history, it is unproductive for the victim countries to forever relate this issue to ANYthing Japan. Is there not a slightest chance that, as much as Japan has its own interest in their education on the history, Korean/Chinese governments have their own motives, too?

On a side note, I do wonder why some Korean people overseas seem to have no problem pretending to be Japanese and open "Japanese" restaurants, making money out of a culture of the country towards which they have complex feelings. Why don't they have an information board on the history next to the menu? Some do in any other places such as on the internet.

Yu-na was wonderful and she won, with such pride and dignity. I'd like to think she's not thinking, "Yes! I defeated the Japanese who did X & Y & Z .....to our country in the past!" Can we please move on, or at least pretend to be civilised members of the civilised countries and treat these issues with pride and dignity?

Moderators, please feel free to move this to a more relevant place. I apologise.

You make a good point here about Koreans being caught up in the past, not able to move on and making irrelevant connections between Mao-Yu-na rivalry and politics. However, I think Japanese people would react exactly same as Koreans do if what had happened to Koreans happened exactly the same way to the Japanese by the Koreans. I think BOTH cultures don't have a concept of FORGIVENESS as well as the understanding that it's okay to ADMIT GUILT. In the western culture, mostly due to Christian influence, we have an understanding that NOBODY IS PERFECT and it's OKAY to forgive others and let them off the hook because we, ourselves are sinners as well and capable of doing just as bad and God the Almighty will judge sinners. I think that's why Americans don't have any problem getting along with the Germans, Iranians, Iraqis, North Koreans, hey, even the Japanese who bombed the Pearl Harbor, after all these years. Just because we forgive them and live peacefully with them, giving them respect, doesn't mean we've lost to them. It doesn't mean we approve of their sins or whatever hurt they inflicted on us.

In Korean and Japanese culture, to forgive means to LOSE - which is why Koreans don't forgive the Japanese. In Korean and Japanese culture, to admit guilt meanst to LOSE - which is why the Japanese never fully, openly admit guilt. There is this concept of shame and 'losing' in forgiveness and admission of guilt.

Korea was attacked and brutalized by the Chinese and the Mongolians centuries back. Yet, they don't 'hate' the Chinese and Mongolians like they do the Japanese. Why? I think it's because 'forgiving' the Japanese for their atrocities equates to 'losing to' Japan and they don't want to 'lose to' Japan although they don't mind doing so to the old great powers like China and Mongolia. Korea traditionally looked down on Japan and there's no way in hell they are gonna 'lose to' Japan by forgiving them. This is how it works in Japanese mind too. Achieving reconsciliation between these two countries will not happen until they overhaul their culture.

 

[bekalc]

Hikki. The Japanese government can "apologize" all it wants, but it has still yet to pay a single dollar of reperations to its victims. Many of who are still living. Apologies ring hollow when for example the women who were raped and brutilized by the Japanese army, aren't at the very least "partially" compensated for their pain and suffering.

Take a look at the difference between how Germany reacted to the Holocaust. It is illegal to deny the Holocaust and the victims receive reperations. And then the difference between how Japan reacted, with their refusal to pay any form of reperation to individual victims. Not to mention members of your government denying this! This is a big sour point with the victims. If Koreans did this to Japanese, I highly doubt the Japanese people would be happy with Korea.

I realize Japan paid money to the countries. But they should do more than that. Money should go to the countries whose societies they destroyed, and also directly to the victims and their families. What happened to those people, well the after effects go on for several generations...

This being said Koreans should understand that young Japanese people are not responsible. Although they have the right to be angry at anyone who denies what happened.

The Japanese are extremely sorry about the terrible crimes. The Japanese also have their own spiritual belief to honour people who fought for their country, no matter how fxxxed up their belief/ brainstorming was

You have to understand though that for Koreans and other Asians the people being honored are people who tormented their family/grandparents etc. You can't expect other Asian countries to not find this insulting and offensive.

I doubt the Jewish people, Polish people etc would take it kindly if the Germans started honoring Hitler and stuff.

 

[wishmaker]

I wish people won't talk about the past history and judge the nations involved. This is a figure skating forum and I'm looking forward to a very informative discussion.

 

[brightphoton]

Since you brought it up, well, I certainly hope they do not teach this part of the "bad" history. Because it would simply be too much for the young students to take.

With that kind of logic, one would not teach the Holocaust because it would be simply too much for the young students to take.

This type of history needs to be told. Forgetting what happened is just what the perpetrators want. These events really drive home the point that racism and bigotry are never acceptable. Besides, if you don't teach students, you end up with a generation of ignorant people, which is undesireable, to say the least. I imagine this lack of education could also increase the rate of Holocaust denial.

 

[steyn]

entire post

I don't want to make this long but just want to comment that I completely disagree with your opinion about culture and religion.

 

[yunaddiction]

I just really get disgusted by some bringing history, race, religion and politics to sports and to the forum like this. I have some family member who were direct victims of horrible war crime. I will tell you all the WAR were VIOLENT!!! Asia is not the only place that happened!!! Comfortwoman and camptown woman, Nanking massacre and Bodo massacres are not only tragedy of the WAR which is the biggest sin of humankind. By bringing the hatred to the sports will not solve anything. Whatever I or you feel about certain country becasue of history MUST stay out of this forum. They are all irrelevant.I really wonder if Yu-Na fans love Yu-na only because she defeated Japanese skaters. Or do they love her for her beautiful skating skills? This is really sad!!!

I think you are the person who has to be very careful mentioning history and figure skating.
Is there any Yuna fan ever in this forum who expressed their happiness when Yuna beat janpanese girls because they think japan is evil ?
They were happy because Yuna accomplished the great class of her own and got a world champ title as deserved. That's it.
Never mention like " if Yu-Na fans love Yu-na only because she defeated Japanese skaters." It is disgusting!

 

[gourry]

Is there any Yuna fan ever in this forum who expressed their happiness when Yuna beat janpanese girls because they think japan is evil ?
They were happy because Yuna accomplished the great class of her own and got a world champ title as deserved. That's it.

I agree. I don't recall any Yuna fans' comments that they were disappointed because Yuna failed to defeat her Japanese counterparts after 2007 Worlds, 2008 Worlds or even after 2008 GPF. It was more about sorriness that she couldn't be 100 percent because of injuries. Or it was mostly about 'how wonderful it would've been if she could've won in front of her home crowd!'
At least THAT was how I felt.
And I'm happy for Yuna becoming World Champion because I think she deserves it, not because she 'defeated' Mao or Miki. It doesn't matter.
And the silver medalist is Joannie for goodness' sake!!

 

[DragonPhoenix]

I don't want to make this long but just want to comment that I completely disagree with your opinion about culture and religion.

Agree.

Every culture has serious issues and problems they need to change and improve.

One needs to seriously look within themselves and their own cultures before preaching to others.

 

[demarinis5]

I agree. I think that this discussion should be moved to the politicall section.

 

[DragonPhoenix]

I think we can all be a better world citizen by discussing these geopolitical subjects of international dimension. We will all be better for it, and better skating fans.

IF, and that's a big if, the purpose is to have a more broad view of things and understanding of different cultures, that's great. But with certain posts, it's clearly more of a narrow view of things that going on.

 

[Blade Runner]

IF, and that's a big if, the purpose is to have a more broad view of things and understanding of different cultures, that's great. But with certain posts, it's clearly more of a narrow view of things that going on.

I do agree that some views expressed may come across as narrow view of things, but even if we disagree with those views I think there could be some value within the discussion.

 

[demarinis5]

If we talk only about figures of skating here(IMHO it can be less than interesting), then I agree, but we cannot avoid the inclusion of fans and their psyche in the discussion because of the over-heated rivalries between the two of the most talented skaters today.

Some of the best rivalries in the past(Kwan/Cohen, not to mention the high-impact kind between Harding/Kerrigan) did not have this international dimension since they are all Americans. In general, we Americans tend to have a more isolated view of ourselves, and as an example, its been famously reported that only 1 out of 10 Americans could locate Iraq on the map, on the eve of the Iraq war.

I sincerely hope that figure skating fans are not so insular and provincial that we can ONLY dwell in the most extremely narrow confines of the sport itself(lip/flip, lutz/flutz, etc), and not have a more broad view of things with some connection, however remote it may be, to the sport that we all love. Besides, from a humanist point of view, I think we can all be a better world citizen by discussing these geopolitical subjects of international dimension. We will all be better for it, and better skating fans.

Good points but I still say that this subject belongs in the political section. That is my story and I am sticking to it.

 

[creamso10]

hahahaha funny opinion

You make a good point here about Koreans being caught up in the past, not able to move on and making irrelevant connections between Mao-Yu-na rivalry and politics. However, I think Japanese people would react exactly same as Koreans do if what had happened to Koreans happened exactly the same way to the Japanese by the Koreans. I think BOTH cultures don't have a concept of FORGIVENESS as well as the understanding that it's okay to ADMIT GUILT. In the western culture, mostly due to Christian influence, we have an understanding that NOBODY IS PERFECT and it's OKAY to forgive others and let them off the hook because we, ourselves are sinners as well and capable of doing just as bad and God the Almighty will judge sinners. I think that's why Americans don't have any problem getting along with the Germans, Iranians, Iraqis, North Koreans, hey, even the Japanese who bombed the Pearl Harbor, after all these years. Just because we forgive them and live peacefully with them, giving them respect, doesn't mean we've lost to them. It doesn't mean we approve of their sins or whatever hurt they inflicted on us.

In Korean and Japanese culture, to forgive means to LOSE - which is why Koreans don't forgive the Japanese. In Korean and Japanese culture, to admit guilt meanst to LOSE - which is why the Japanese never fully, openly admit guilt. There is this concept of shame and 'losing' in forgiveness and admission of guilt.

Korea was attacked and brutalized by the Chinese and the Mongolians centuries back. Yet, they don't 'hate' the Chinese and Mongolians like they do the Japanese. Why? I think it's because 'forgiving' the Japanese for their atrocities equates to 'losing to' Japan and they don't want to 'lose to' Japan although they don't mind doing so to the old great powers like China and Mongolia. Korea traditionally looked down on Japan and there's no way in hell they are gonna 'lose to' Japan by forgiving them. This is how it works in Japanese mind too. Achieving reconsciliation between these two countries will not happen until they overhaul their culture.

this is really funny opinion.
it's not the matter of forgiving japanese or losing to japanese.
koreans are simply angry because japanese still fabricate their history, ignore koreans and haven't appologize for what they have done in the past.
they say that they didn't 'invade' korean but 'progress' to korea.
they ignore koreans simply because they're koreans.
do you think that makes sense? christianity you said? i think 30% of koreans
are christians. In asian culture, especially in korean culture, they really care and
love whom they like more than americans.
when Na-young participated in COR, her fans helped her out.
koreans are more connected than americans or any other races.
and i don't think americans have no problem in getting along with other nations.
american soldiers in korean make so many troubles and people hate it.
but not all americans are like that, right?
getting along with people has nothing to do with nation.
it's more related to personality.
i think you lack many background information regarding history and culture of korea/japan

 

[fourclover]

this is really funny opinion.
it's not the matter of forgiving japanese or losing to japanese.
koreans are simply angry because japanese still fabricate their history, ignore koreans and haven't appologize for what they have done in the past.
they say that they didn't 'invade' korean but 'progress' to korea.
they ignore koreans simply because they're koreans.
do you think that makes sense? christianity you said? i think 30% of koreans
are christians. In asian culture, especially in korean culture, they really care and
love whom they like more than americans.
when Na-young participated in COR, her fans helped her out.
koreans are more connected than americans or any other races.
and i don't think americans have no problem in getting along with other nations.
american soldiers in korean make so many troubles and people hate it.
but not all americans are like that, right?
getting along with people has nothing to do with nation.
it's more related to personality.
i think you lack many background information regarding history and culture of korea/japan

I can't understand a single point you're trying to make here and how that relates to my post because of your poor English. How does random isolated accounts of American soldiers stationed in Korea making trouble have anything to do with Americans getting along with other races? Americans don't hate the Japanese for what they did to Pearl Harbor and during WW2 as the Koreans hate them for whatever they did to them. America was at war with Iraq and Iran and yet there are very few isolated incidents of hate crimes against these groups; we don't as a group hate them like Koreans think of the Japanese as the enemies. Koreans don't forgive the Japanese because it's a "shame" to do so. Japanese don't admit their fault and ask for forgiveness because its a "shame" to do so. It's the Confucius culture. There's no concept of redemption there.

 

[yunaddiction]

Americans don't hate the Japanese for what they did to Pearl Harbor and during WW2 as the Koreans hate them for whatever they did to them. America was at war with Iraq and Iran and yet there are very few isolated incidents of hate crimes against these groups; we don't as a group hate them like Koreans think of the Japanese as the enemies. Koreans don't forgive the Japanese because it's a "shame" to do so. Japanese don't admit their fault and ask for forgiveness because its a "shame" to do so. It's the Confucius culture. There's no concept of redemption there.

Some Americans hated Japan not because of Perl Harbor but because of Toyota in 1980s as I remember.

Confucius??? Redemption????
Talking about figure skating is much easier than talking about Asian history, religion and the culure.
Why don't we here stick to the easier topic?

 

[steyn]

Dear users who disagree with fourclover's opinion,

Let's just ignore fourclover's post on this specific topic on the culture and religion. His/her post shows itself the ignorance on this subject and does not need any further comment. It's not worth spending time on it or paying any attention to it. (But let's not confuse that we are not neglecting him/her as a person who has contributed a lot in this forum about figure skating. We are just neglecting his/her viewpoint on this very specific topic.)

 

[ks777]

Dear users who disagree with fourclover's opinion,

Let's just ignore fourclover's post on this specific topic on the culture and religion. His/her post shows itself the ignorance on this subject and does not need any further comment. It's not worth spending time on it or paying any attention to it. (But let's not confuse that we are not neglecting him/her as a person who has contributed a lot in this forum about figure skating. We are just neglecting his/her viewpoint on this very specific topic.)

everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Please do not treat his/her post the way you just did. Just because you don't agree with him/her doesn't mean she is wrong. If you don't want to hear what others have to say about something, you don't have to read it, or you don't have to come to a discussion board, if you don't want to discuss.

 

[steyn]

everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Please do not treat his/her post the way you just did. Just because you don't agree with him/her doesn't mean she is wrong. If you don't want to hear what others have to say about something, you don't have to read it, or you don't have to come to a discussion board, if you don't want to discuss.

You are right. I completely agree with you. As everyone is entitled his/her opinion, I just posted my own opinion, once and for all.

 

[steyn]

everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Please do not treat his/her post the way you just did. Just because you don't agree with him/her doesn't mean she is wrong. If you don't want to hear what others have to say about something, you don't have to read it, or you don't have to come to a discussion board, if you don't want to discuss.

You are right. I completely agree with you. As everyone is entitled his/her opinion, I just posted my own opinion, once and for all.