The Short Program jumps

[gsrossano]

As an amateur observer, that does not seem so clear to me. In a successful program the highlight elements are part of the choreography. I don't think choreography just refers to what you do when you are not doing something else.

HUH???

At a bare minimum, for a program with only elements and crossovers, the choreography is the placement of the elements on the ice (and the path followed to get from one element to the next), and placement with respect to the music. That is not much, so CH will be low and IN will be even lower.

To get higher CH and IN marks requires filling in the space between the elements with transitions appropriate to the music.

Eight elements in 2:50 constrains the way the elements can be linked together and so limits the design of the program. Some music does not lend itself to being well expressed in 2:50 by the eight elements. The choice/cut of music is then very important if it is to be choreographed effectively under the constraints of the program rules. It makes it harder than in the FS, but not impossible.

In the FS there is more time between the elements to develop the design and there are more potential ways to order and link the elements to develop the design and express the music.

 

[Mathman]

In the FS there is more time between the elements to develop the design...

In the short program a man does 8 elements in 170 seconds, for an average of 21.25 seconds per element.

In the long program he does 13 elements in 270 secods -- 20.77 seconds per element.

Throw in the fatigue factor in the long program, and I do not see any greater choreographic opportunities in the long than in the short.

Plus, it is easier for a skater to maintain character and mood for the shorter program.

...and there are more potential ways to order and link the elements to develop the design and express the music.

Perhaps in potential. In practice, in the SP the man usually does his three jumps first, then the rest, ending with a step sequence. In the long, he does the same thing in the first half of the program, then he does it again in the second half.

At a bare minimum, for a program with only elements and crossovers, the choreography is the placement of the elements on the ice (and the path followed to get from one element to the next), and placement with respect to the music. That is not much, so CH will be low and IN will be even lower.

I guess, in theory.

But in the Worlds ladies LP Miki Ando did a program much as you descibed, where the elements basically were the choreography. It was a thrilling performance. She got 8.05 for choreography and 8.15 for interpretation from the judging panel.

Joannie Rochette did a much less enthralling program which, however, did have a lot of little curlicues, etc., between elements. She got 8.05 for choreography and 8.05 for interpretation.

 

[Buttercup]

Compare only to the 2001-2004 period, when the SP jump requirements were the same as they are now but the judging system was still in place?

I'll see if I can find notes (or watch videos and take notes) from Worlds from one of those years.

I'm not up to that much research, but IIRC, of the top 5 guys at 2002 Olys, only Timothy Goebel did three jumps in a row to start off the SP. Jumps were in the same order, though - 4-3 (well, attempted 4 for Plush ), 3A, 3Lz. Was that some kind of mandatory thing?

 

[gsrossano]

In the short program a man does 8 elements in 170 seconds, for an average of 21.25 seconds per element.

In the long program he does 13 elements in 270 seconds -- 20.77 seconds per element.

That is the wrong way to think of it. You have to take the time it takes to complete each element. Subtract that from the total time, and that is the time left over for connecting moves. There is more time for connecting moves in the FS compared to the SP.

Roughly speaking (from my measurements of typical time to complete elements):

SP 170 sec total less 105 for elements leaves 65 sec for connecting moves.
FS (men) 250 sec total less 130 for elements leaves 120 sec for connecting moves. Twice as much as the SP.

In practice, in the SP the man usually does his three jumps first, then the rest, ending with a step sequence. In the long, he does the same thing in the first half of the program, then he does it again in the second half.

That is their choice. not a requirement. Nothing physically or artistically compels them to do it that way. They do it that way because "that's the way it has always been done" because they are sheep and lack creativity.

There are in fact 40,320 ways to order the SP elements, and 6,227,020,800 ways to order the Men's FS elements! Even when you take out the choices that are not practical (like three jumps at the end) there are a gazillion ways to combine the elements people are too mindless to try.

I guess, in theory.

Not in theory. This is the way we judge it (or are supposed to judge it).

As for your examples, did you count the transitions for each? Did you compare each performance to the criteria to come up with your mark? If you did then we can talk and compare.

As I was in the arena for every last performance and took notes on each, I cannot agree that Ando did a program that was nothing but crossovers and elements without transitions -- and that only the elements were the choreography. For Rochette, I had some of her components about a point lower than the judges whose opinion count.[/QUOTE]

 

[gsrossano]

I'm not up to that much research, but IIRC, of the top 5 guys at 2002 Olys, only Timothy Goebel did three jumps in a row to start off the SP. Jumps were in the same order, though - 4-3 (well, attempted 4 for Plush ), 3A, 3Lz. Was that some kind of mandatory thing?

At 2005 Worlds 1 of 30 Men did three jumps in a row in the SP.

 

[Buttercup]

At 2005 Worlds 1 of 30 Men did three jumps in a row in the SP.

That got me curious to see who the 1 was, so I looked through the protocols (any other curious people: Andrei Griazev). And, what do you know - 1 out of the 30 started his SP with a step sequence! Now that's original.

It was Timothy Goebel, BTW. Go figure.

By then I was in my geeky protocol mode. The findings: in 2006 and 2007, most of the men still had at least a spin before the third jump, but I counted nine guys with 3 jumps in a row out of each top 30 SP scores (2006, of course, had only 30, because there was still a QR). By 2008, it was exactly one half of the top thirty SP scores. In 2009, it was up to 21, with only one brave soul attempting more than one element before the third jump (Ari-Pekka Nurmenkari. This did not pay off - he didn't make the LP).

 

[seniorita]

Is it lack of creativity?physically , who would do what needs more strength at the end of each half of their fs?

Jumps were in the same order, though - 4-3 (well, attempted 4 for Plush ), 3A, 3Lz. Was that some kind of mandatory thing?

i wonder too if it is mandatory cause plush did the same in 2006 olympics (thankfully not just attempted) not to say in most of his sps.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just another random observation.

In the Men's FS, it is pretty common to put 4-5 jump elements (triple jumps), of the 8 jump elements, in the second half, after 2:15, which is getting near the end of a 2:50 SP.

So does that tell us if the Men wanted to put one of the three SP jumps towards the end of the SP, they should be able to handle it? Is putting three first thing in the program just a security blanket?

I do not think it tells us anything except to follow the regulations. I am sure the top 6 male skaters in the World could throw in a 3A combo after 2:15.

One has to remember that Joubert won the 2007 Worlds soley on his SP I believe he was beaten by Dai, Stephane and Tomas and maybe others in the LP. I think a lesson was learned here by all competitors. Absolutely necessary not to screw up the SP. Get the 3 jumps out of the way as soon as possible Therefore no time for artistry, except in the footwork, maybe.

 

[Ladskater]

I know what you are saying, but the short program is a technical program. It's almost like watching all of the set-pattern dances the ice dancers have to do - it's the same in content. It's nice when a skater really does an outstanding job on their short program. It does set the standard for the rest...

 

[Mathman]

That is the wrong way to think of it. You have to take the time it takes to complete each element. Subtract that from the total time, and that is the time left over for connecting moves. There is more time for connecting moves in the FS compared to the SP.

I am still not convinced that we ought to expect stronger choreography – and correspondingly higher PCSs -- in the long program than in the short. Having 6 billion colors on our palettes instead of a mere 40,000 will not guarantee prettier pictures.

As for your examples, did you count the transitions for each? Did you compare each performance to the criteria to come up with your mark? If you did then we can talk and compare.

About Miki Ando’s LP, the armchair quarterback brigade cannot tell a Mohawk from a counter – or for that matter, a Mohawk from nothing-at-all – but we know what we like. :yes: I thought Ando's program was super in terms of the overall construction of the program, the placement of the elements, the skater's connection to the music, and the impact on the audience. I give her a 5.9 and I thought she deserved to win the LP over Kim. I was less enthusiastic about Joannie Rochette's program, but many knowledgeable people on the message boards praised Rochette’s transitions and choreography.

 

[Blades of Passion]

When in the past?

At all times in the past?

I can only remember two or three times before CoP was introduced that a skater in the top 5 did all 3 jumps in the SP at the start of the program - Miki Ando's SP in 2004, Tim Goebel's SP in 2002, and....???

 

[gkelly]

At all times in the past?

My point is that at most times in the past, 1973 through 1998, the jump content for the men's short program was easier because the short progarm rules didn't allow the level of difficulty that the top jumpers attempt now. Senior men could easily save the required double axel for late in the program.

You'd have to look within the last 11 years, when the allowed jump content was the same, for a fair comparison.

I can only remember two or three times before CoP was introduced that a skater in the top 5 did all 3 jumps in the SP at the start of the program - Miki Ando's SP in 2004, Tim Goebel's SP in 2002, and....???

Well, out of curiosity, I just watched the 21 men's short programs from that I have on tape from 2003 Worlds.

It's true, only one of them did all three jumps as the first three elements . . . and that skater happened to be in the top 5 at that event (Chengjiang Li, 4th place).

On the other hand, 20 of those 21 men did do jumps as their first two elements. The exception was Ilya Klimkin, who did a step sequence first and then his two hard jump elements.

Seven of the 20 did their third jump element as the fourth element in the program. In all those cases it was a solo 3F or 3Lz.

Six did the solo triple as the fifth or sixth element of the program. Half of them fell. (Those also accounted for almost half of the falls, 7, among the 63 jumps I watched.)

Seven did double axel as the fifth or sixth element. All of those were clean.

The highest ranked program with a solo double axel (and triple axel combination) at 2003 Worlds was Sergei Davydov, 7th place.

At 2009 Worlds, the highest ranked short program to include a solo double axel was Przemeslaw Domanski, 24th place.

I.e., the standard of jump content attempted at the top of the field was higher in 2003 (eight quads attempted), but in the middle of the field the difficulty standard has risen significantly. That will also affect the overall trends.

 

[Buttercup]

One has to remember that Joubert won the 2007 Worlds soley on his SP I believe he was beaten by Dai, Stephane and Tomas and maybe others in the LP. I think a lesson was learned here by all competitors. Absolutely necessary not to screw up the SP. Get the 3 jumps out of the way as soon as possible Therefore no time for artistry, except in the footwork, maybe.

True, at 2007 Worlds the men's event was won in the SP. Not true that Brian Joubert totally blew the LP - he was third, ahead of Verner, with a score 157.21 - which is pretty good. And his SP that year didn't start off with three jumps, he had a level 4 spin before the 3F. Likewise for the second best SP that year, Jeffrey Buttle's (whose solo jump was the 3Lz).

The lesson shouldn't be "do three jumps in a row to start off your SP"; we need variety in program construction. The lesson, which some of the guys still haven't learned, is do a 4-3 in the SP if you can. It's a huge boost to a skater's score and can keep him in contention if he makes a mistake on another element.

I don't buy that there's no time for artistry except the step sequences. There's not much time, but a skater can still put in some small touches here and there. If anything, the step sequences have become so not artistic and non-innovative, it's just a shame. I was at a local rink watching some novice skaters recently, and even they were doing the "hi, ice!" bit that you see in all the senior events. Give them time and the high kicks will be in there, too. Yawn.

I am still not convinced that we ought to expect stronger choreography – and correspondingly higher PCSs -- in the long program than in the short. Having 6 billion colors on our palettes instead of a mere 40,000 will not guarantee prettier pictures.

Very true - it gives a bit more time to put in some interesting stuff, but there's a difference between having the oppportunity to do something and actually doing it...

 

[seniorita]

what is "hi ice" move?
the lovely bow thing lambiel used to do?

 

[Buttercup]

what is "hi ice" move?
the lovely bow thing lambiel used to do?

It's when they lean down over their skates and pretend to sweep up some stuff from the ice. Not lovely at all. Everyone does it these days, and I hate it - it doesn't fit into any step sequence I've ever seen. Stupid upper body movement requirements :scowl:.

 

[seniorita]

thats why plushy prefers windmill moves
I m lost in translation though, i thought it was something else, do you have any skater's vid to see the Hello movement?

 

[DarkestMoon]

thats why plushy prefers windmill moves
I m lost in translation though, i thought it was something else, do you have any skater's vid to see the Hello movement?

Do you have Plushy's windmill moves? (seriously, via YouTube)

At worse, I think of Evan's tornado steps with his high kicks and all. Footwork should just be renamed bodywork because IMHO, very few actually remember that it's your legs that's driving the footwork not the torso and arms.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The lesson shouldn't be "do three jumps in a row to start off your SP"; we need variety in program construction. The lesson, which some of the guys still haven't learned, is do a 4-3 in the SP if you can. It's a huge boost to a skater's score and can keep him in contention if he makes a mistake on another element.

I don't buy that there's no time for artistry except the step sequences. There's not much time, but a skater can still put in some small touches here and there. If anything, the step sequences have become so not artistic and non-innovative, it's just a shame. I was at a local rink watching some novice skaters recently, and even they were doing the "hi, ice!" bit that you see in all the senior events. Give them time and the high kicks will be in there, too. Yawn.


Very true - it gives a bit more time to put in some interesting stuff, but there's a difference between having the oppportunity to do something and actually doing it...

This is arguable. We know both Tech with a bit of artistry is the best way to gold but if there is no artistry, the Tech will get the gold. Also if there is great artistry, there must be some hi tech elements to justify the gold If one thinks about Kwan v. Slutskaya you may understand what I am trying to say.

Bottom Line is 3 clean jumps plus suitable spinning, and knockout footwork is a must. I do not think judges give extra credit for spacing out the jumps. It's not in the regulations. So I still contend that frontload choreography is not artistry.

I have no idea what 'hi ice' is. I think you are describing 'gathering up flowers' in which case it can only be appreciated in a proscenium stage and not in an arena.

 

[seniorita]

I think you are describing 'gathering up flowers'

maybe cause it is spring time?

Do you have Plushy's windmill moves? (seriously, via YouTube)

oh there are plenty i can think of..lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmt8yeJBd0Q windmill and bees start around 1.40

 

[Buttercup]

I have no idea what 'hi ice' is. I think you are describing 'gathering up flowers' in which case it can only be appreciated in a proscenium stage and not in an arena.

That is certainly a more accurate description than mine. I think I'll just use both .