Olympics/World Championships Skating Requirements | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Olympics/World Championships Skating Requirements

We could establish a qualification round where all skaters compete regardless of their nationality.
The top five at worlds were from 5 countries but that was more probable to happen cause there were up to three candidates for the top5 from the same country. Not all top skaters of each country went there. Preubert didnt. Weir didnt ..etc...what do you mean all skaters can compete in qualifying??how many each federation will send?Cause Usa for example can have 5 (or more?) of the top level. And then whats the use of nationals (its selective role I mean) ?
 
Good points Ant, I wonder though - you and several others have expressed a similar point that "soon it will be a competition bewteen two or three countries.
Is that the best point many have against a more modern and fair approach to getting the best skaters in the world to compete at Worlds?

Ah but that depends on what you mean by fair and modern. Personally I don't see what you are proposing as being fair. You seem to be rejecting the notion that all member federations should be represented at the world championships based purely on an argument by Bianchetti (whose arguments at best can be described as very biased against $peedy) that it is all part of $peedy's master plan to control skating. I would disgaree with that completely. Why shouldn't all member federations be represented? Like i said if one country has a particularly deep field then come up with a way to give them an extra one or two spots if it is really necessary. I just don't think stopping groups of skaters from competing is the answer.

I think it is unrealisitic to say it will get down to two or three. USA and Canada won't quit. Japan won't quit. Do you really think the Russians or French or Germans will quit? The Italians will never quit as long as speedy is around.
If USA and Russia are skating then China will never quit. It seems as if Koreans have gone crazy over skating so I doubt they will quit.

You cannot with any certainty say that other countries won't quit. Right now NISA (NGB for skating in the UK) has next to no money. It doesn't always fill the allocated slots for the JGPs and often leaves senior events without participants because of money and comparatively weak fields. There is very little money for skating but on the back of the Kerrs success there is some money available, if Britain could not take part in a world or European Championships because Japan, Canada and the US have ten spots each then i can see the plug being pulled for all funding. Adding yet another obstacle to to get to the World Championships means disillusioned skaters, less update at the grass roots learn to skate level and the further decline in the sport til it's gone. That is the main argument that pursuades me, but then maybe i'm just looking at it from my country's perspective, just as i suspect you're looking at it from yours ;)

Ultimately it would also be a greater burden for the few countries witha lot of skaters because which federation would host a world championship if it's skaters cannot take part?

Personally i just see more harm being done than good simply because once every now and then a country has more talent than it has spots availabel at worlds.

Has England given up Tennis even though they have not had a male champion in what - 70 years? Actually, they still host a nice little tournament.

But that's the point - interest in Tennis in this country is more less based on the fact that we host one of the grand slams - more importantly the UK is one of what (2 or 3) countries that actually holds grass court tournaments. I'm sure if, based on the UK tradition, we were to hold the Ice Dance world championships here every year or a specific high profile ice dance championship here every year interest would be extremely high.

Britian may not have had a men's champion in Tennis but at Wimbledon one of our guys has made it to the last 16 if not further (or at least certainly had the capability to do so) for a number of years. That is not the case with skating we have no-one threatening the podium at worlds (arguably the Kerrs might going forwards), and, ice dance aside, our skaters struggle to make the cut for the SP - those are the skaters that would be affected by changing qualification to worlds.

Also how many entrants are there for round 1 at wimbeldon in the Mens and Ladies event? If skating could cope with having hundreds of skaters do a QR or SP then it might be fairer and less demotivating for the skaters.

And what if India quits? Is that automatically good or bad for skating?

What if a few years ago someone said the same about Korea? ;)

I think about the US Open Tennis Championship. It, along with the other Tennis Grand Slam events appear to be flourishing. TV money is huge, and attendance is great. Tennis uses a draw based on player's rankings to decide who will play at a tournamanet. These events also wisley allow for several wild card invitations should an inured or retired palyer wish to return. Boris Becker played at Wimbledon up to the end of his career. Why? Because it was so good for tennis to have him "playing in his living room." I don't recall such nonsense over does he qualify, or is this fair to let him play? It seems to me unwise NOT to let a skater like Plushenko, Sasha or Michelle return to the sport.

But the issue with skating is the time taken for each individual performer to do their programme, the number of officials involved in the event/judging etc, if it wasn't so limite din terms fo number of people competing then adding to teh pool of competitors would not be problem.

It seems equally unwise to base a world championship on having as many skaters from as many different countries competing.
I guess I just disagree and want to stand up for the minority skating federations!

Ant
 
I have no strong argument for changing the Rules of Competition whether at the Local, Country or Internationa levels, although I might like to.

I believe the purpose of the Olympics is to present to the World, the best athlete in a particular competition with two runner-ups? but is it Open to all athletes of a particular Sport? If the limit to participate from one country is three, then that it is the Rule. Is it applied to all Sports that make of the Olympics? I dunno.

In Figure Skating, it is clearly understood that some skaters who are prohibited to skate in the Olympics because of the Country Rule, could have a chance at a medal but the Rule does not allow their entry. The result is, among other things, a loss of Olympic experience. We just have to live with that.
 
Don't we want to see the best? Other sports don't have that kind of limit, so why should figure skating?
We could establish a qualification round where all skaters compete regardless of their nationality.
If we take a closer look, we can see that this would not only leave 2 or 3 countries. In men's, the top five at worlds 2009 were from five different nations:
USA, Canada, France, Czech Republic, Italy. Other countries have internationally succesful skaters as well: Japan, Russia, Belgium, until very recently Switzerland, and there are more who have decent skaters.
I'm pretty sure that a changement of the rules would be a step in the right direction.

Yes, other sports do place limits on the amount of athletes they can send! That is why most National sport federations hold Olympic Trials. As a previous example, I stated that in skiing Team Canada can only send 14 athletes while other countries can send 22. Is that horribly unfair as well?

Gkelly- I think your first option would never happen. That event would be too long, people wouldn't pay money to go see it, it would be too expensive, etc. If the other options take place what happens to Nationals? They may not even exist because there would be no point to them if everything was based on international results. Canadian Nationals is going to be unbelievably exciting this year, with skaters competing for two spots in each discipline. How unfortunate if this was taken away or had diminished importance.
 
The top five at worlds were from 5 countries but that was more probable to happen cause there were up to three candidates for the top5 from the same country. Not all top skaters of each country went there. Preubert didnt. Weir didnt ..etc...what do you mean all skaters can compete in qualifying??how many each federation will send?Cause Usa for example can have 5 (or more?) of the top level. And then whats the use of nationals (its selective role I mean) ?

Not all top skaters of each country went to worlds. Exactly. Instead, some much weaker skaters from small federations went, which is not fair. It' not about stopping those skaters from competing, it's about having the best at worlds. If those skaters are not at a world class level then they should not go to worlds for heaven's sake. Especially not if some others, who are way better than them, can't go.
Everyone should be able to skate the qualifying round, and the best 30 or whatever get to skate the SP.
But does it matter if the nationals have a selective role or not? IMO, it doesn't, but it still means a lot to be crowned the national champion.
 
Buttercup and Seniorita - seems i'm teetering on the edge!
what teetering means Ant?I need to push you on the other side?:p
Ant is waiting for the perfect subject to come up on the Plushy thread, so that he can post no. 4000 on the thread that has contributed the most to our post counts :laugh:.

Not all top skaters of each country went to worlds. Exactly. Instead, some much weaker skaters from small federations went, which is not fair.
Why is it not fair? The top skaters from each country did go; people are complaining because not enough top skaters went. But if they couldn't do well enough at their nat'l championships, why did they deserve to go?

The stonger countries get to send teams, while the weaker countries only send representatives. It's all part of the development of the sport. It used to be that all the top skaters were from a handful of European countries and from NA. Now we have great skaters from Asia and from countries that may not have been traiditonal figure skating powers. It has to start somewhere. Who gets hurt if a few weaker skaters get to skate their SPs at an ISU championship?
 
Everyone should be able to skate the qualifying round, and the best 30 or whatever get to skate the SP.
I dont know why you say it is not fair. Fair for who?Otherwise usa could send top5 skaters, france also, japan also, canada also, and the 20 out of 30 would be from just 4 countries. Not much probablilty for diversity now as it was in the Worlds this year.
In ice dance there is a sort of qualifying , isnt it? Back to singles and pairs qualifying again?We just got rid of it. Why Q round was eliminated first place?
Ant wait!
 
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Gkelly- I think your first option would never happen. That event would be too long, people wouldn't pay money to go see it, it would be too expensive, etc.

All very true. Which is why I propose making the skaters/federations pay for the privilege of entering. At least that way there wouldn't be lots of frivolous entries by skaters who had no chance of qualifying for the final 24, unless they consider entering the initial round as a worthwhile investment in itself.

If the other options take place what happens to Nationals? They may not even exist because there would be no point to them if everything was based on international results.

Nationals serve a lot of other purposes besides just determining who gets to go to Worlds.

If the federations are sending skaters to and paying for the Worlds initial rounds, continental championship (w/ or w/o initial rounds) as Worlds qualifiers, or super -GP qualifying series, then they would use their nationals to determine which skaters to send to those international competitions. They're not going to send every senior-level skater in the country. Well, not unless they happen to have few senior skaters and lots of money.

Also, there are bragging rights in being a national champion, or a national medalist, even if there is not a direct correlation between those titles and qualifying for Worlds.

Depending on the international qualifying procedure and schedule, federations might consider changing the timing of their nationals.
 
What if a few years ago someone said the same about Korea? ;)



But the issue with skating is the time taken for each individual performer to do their programme, the number of officials involved in the event/judging etc, if it wasn't so limite din terms fo number of people competing then adding to teh pool of competitors would not be problem.


I guess I just disagree and want to stand up for the minority skating federations!

Ant

Again, many good points Ant. I am not sure if I disagree with any of them but it is interesting thinking about it.
As to Korea, so what? They have had a skating federation for a long time now.
Many think it began 6 years ago. They would be wrong. Is skating so desperate that it can't survive without Yuna? I happen to be a fan of Yuna but could care lessif she or Mao or anyone else wins the OGM next season. I hope we see some great skating and that the judging is not pre-determined or biased. That may be more than I can hope for from an ISU event, but I will still be glad to watch the competition.

I am curious - how does gymnastics do it. I think there qualifying round is much longer and includes not 50 athletes but many, many more than that. And they have all the different discipilnes to get through. Why don't we hear whining from the gymnastic organization that there are too many gymnasts and qualifying takes too long?
Maybe because it is a better run organization than ISU???
I admire in principle than you stick up for the underdog. Believe it or not, I am not against the diversity we see at Worlds and especially the Olympics.
I have to go back and read gkellys post # 45 now because I think these issues were addressedd very well in that post.
 
I dont know what you mean about gymnastics, they are qualified as a team so you cant count the athletes as individuals.From their best scores comes the qualification of athletes for finals.It is different sport, competition can be held simultaneously in all disciplines for men or women and each routine lasts much shorter.
or, maybe I didnt understand the comparisson, sorry.
 
we can also put a limit of the maximum paragraphs someone can write on the same post :biggrin:

:rofl:

The key to having people actually read your posts instead of just scrolling past with bleary eyes is -- short paragraphs.

That's what newspapers do. Even in a long article, there are only one or two or at most three sentences per paragraph. It is just less taxing to read that way.

antman said:
You seem to be rejecting the notion that all member federations should be represented at the world championships based purely on an argument by Bianchetti...

Just for the record, what Bianchetti said on the issue was

What is most important (in considering changing the qualifying rules for Worlds) is that two basic principles are considered:

(The first is) that no country (should) have more than three competitors in a championships, so that as many different countries as possible can be represented...

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/current/content/Sonia 2009 Worlds.htm
 
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Why is it not fair? The top skaters from each country did go; people are complaining because not enough top skaters went. But if they couldn't do well enough at their nat'l championships, why did they deserve to go?
They deserve to go if they are better than some of the skaters who only get to go because their federation can send a representative no matter how well this person skates. Based on their skating alone, who deserves to go more, Caroline or Maria? Due to the rules, Caroline didn't go although she easily would have beaten the majority of the present skaters.


The stonger countries get to send teams, while the weaker countries only send representatives. It's all part of the development of the sport. It used to be that all the top skaters were from a handful of European countries and from NA. Now we have great skaters from Asia and from countries that may not have been traiditonal figure skating powers. It has to start somewhere. Who gets hurt if a few weaker skaters get to skate their SPs at an ISU championship?
No one gets hurt. But if they have the right to show their SP, so should other skaters, who were hurt by being from a strong federation, despite being much stronger skaters than some of those who actually went.
 
:rofl:

The key to having people actually read your posts instead of just scrolling past with blurry eyes is -- short paragraphs.

That's what newspapers do. Even in a long article, there are only one or two or at most three sentences per paragraph. It is just less taxing to read that way.



Just for the record, what Bianchetti said on the issue was



http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/current/content/Sonia 2009 Worlds.htm

There seem to be many replies in less than 24 hours on this topic and there are many long posts besides mine. I believe your conclusion could be open for debate.
I quoted Bianchetti regarding the quality of skating at the last Worlds. I never said all of her ideas were the best thing for skating, although if she recommends a limit of three skaters per federation that would be very pertinent to this topic.
I am waiting for a strong defense for keeping the status quo at skating championships. I have heard some good points and I understand that rules are in place and it is not easy or always practical to make changes in a sport.
 
I dont know what you mean about gymnastics, they are qualified as a team so you cant count the athletes as individuals.From their best scores comes the qualification of athletes for finals.It is different sport, competition can be held simultaneously in all disciplines for men or women and each routine lasts much shorter.
or, maybe I didnt understand the comparisson, sorry.

Thanks for explaining that point. I thought many gymnastic teams have more than 1,2 or 3 athletes that compete through the qualifying stages. I also thought many more nations compete in gymnastics than figure skating. That is why I thought that gymnastics qualifying might be longer than figure skating.
I really don't know how long it takes, but think it must be fairly long considering how many athletes are competing at all of various disciplines.
Of course skating has to deal with four disciplines not just the Ladies event
 
No one wants to address my suggestions in post 45 of this thread?

:) These internet message boards are an interesting study in group psychology.

When you made your thoughtful, well-considered post last night, it fell right into the middle of a debate that was generating much more heat than light.

I, for one, was less interested in reading other people's ideas than in banging away at my keyboard, composing my next brilliant and irrefutable post. :rofl: (Imagine my astonishment when the succeeding posts always managed successfully to refuted mine after all. ;) )

Now this morning, after a good night's sleep, people are saying, hey guys, check out gkelly's proposal. :cool:
 
There seem to be many replies in less than 24 hours on this topic and there are many long posts besides mine.

Mr Janet you need a grand cappuccino.:) It was me making the comment about loooong posts :laugh:Give me the credit:biggrin:

About gymnastics you thought right. It is a lot more athletes competing. But what I said that you cant compare the two sports I meant: Six athletes for qualyfying round on each team (only 5 compete of the 6 and 4 scores count), 6 athletes in team final round,(3 of them compete 3 scores count). But teams can compete simultaneously and the routines dont last more than a 1 min ++. That seems easier to held than in skating.
Nevertheless, for the qualifying, for the individual phase of all-around or event finals, only 2 athletes can proceed from the same country.
In that aspect is worse for the top athletes than in skating, cause usually the whole team is in a top of the top level anyway.
Also like skating, athletes are qualified to national team by national competition. Teams are qualified in Olys from the previous Worlds performance, but I m not sure how exactly. There is also possibility that a small federation can send individuals for events if they dont have a decent whole team(like greece). If they would send only full qualified teams and the best of the world, Greece would not have a few gold in gymnastics, thing that has revived the interest for the sport. :)
sorry for rambling, i had inspiration:o
 
Long posts are fine. Who writes longer posts than I? :laugh:

What I was saying is that many short paragraphs are easier to read than one long one.

I will demonstrate with Senorita's last post. Here is is with no other changes than an extra space between paragraphs.

Senoritia wrote:

Mr Janet you need a grand cappuccino. :) It was me making the comment about loooong posts :laugh: Give me the credit :biggrin:

About gymnastics you thought right. It is a lot more athletes competing. But what I said that you cant compare the two sports I meant: Six athletes for qualyfying round on each team (only 5 compete of the 6 and 4 scores count), 6 athletes in team final round,(3 of them compete 3 scores count). But teams can compete simultaneously and the routines dont last more than a 1 min ++. That seems easier to held than in skating.

Nevertheless, for the qualifying, for the individual phase of all-around or event finals, only 2 athletes can proceed from the same country.
In that aspect is worse for the top athletes than in skating, cause usually the whole team is in a top of the top level anyway.

Also like skating, athletes are qualified to national team by national competition. Teams are qualified in Olys from the previous Worlds performance, but I m not sure how exactly. There is also possibility that a small federation can send individuals for events if they dont have a decent whole team(like greece). If they would send only full qualified teams and the best of the world, Greece would not have a few gold in gymnastics, thing that has revived the interest for the sport. :)

Sorry for rambling, i had inspiration. :o
 
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:laugh::laugh: so we need not only paragraphs but also extra spacing between them??
Hmm..NOW my post looks too long:unsure:
Hey MM, couldnt you correct also grammar and spelling if it was to demonstrate my post?:o
 
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