Ladies vs. Men and the CoP

[prettykeys]

rejiggered

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[daihard]

The only sport I can think of where the ladies hold their own in terms of audience appeal is tennis. I think the reason is that men serve the ball so hard that there are not many long rallies or service breaks, so the women's game is more interesting.

I guess my question is, is there anything about ladies figure skating these days that sets it apart? Or are ladies just not-very-good men?

I would say it's something similar to tennis. Female skaters are in general more elegant and more flexible, and they skate more beautifully than men. To me, male figure skating is mainly about power, speed and dynamism whereas female figure skating is about beauty, smoothness and elegance.

Just my humble opinion, of course...

 

[newvie]

The recent ladies' and men's short programs at NHK raises again the question of why men's figure skating seems to be getting better and better, while the ladies are getting worse and worse.

We have that impression because American men are doing fine while American girls are getting worse?

And today at NHK, many of male competitors were of world top level and ladies were not. For example, ladies’ competition was much more interesting than that of men at TEB.

 

[leruiz]

I would say it's something similar to tennis. Female skaters are in general more elegant and more flexible, and they skate more beautifully than men. To me, male figure skating is mainly about power, speed and dynamism whereas female figure skating is about beauty, smoothness and elegance.

Just my humble opinion, of course...

Totally agree with your post. If you are looking for gracefulness, you look at the ladies and if you are looking for power then you look at the men. In my opinion, there has been something lacking for the ladies but just don't know what. I used to like to see it and now it seems boring to me and that might be because so many of the ladies are just not up to world level except for a few. However, the men are usually on and there seems to be more of a competition there.

 

[daihard]

Totally agree with your post. If you are looking for gracefulness, you look at the ladies and if you are looking for power then you look at the men. In my opinion, there has been something lacking for the ladies but just don't know what. I used to like to see it and now it seems boring to me and that might be because so many of the ladies are just not up to world level except for a few. However, the men are usually on and there seems to be more of a competition there.

Thanks!

I agree that there's not been much competition among the ladies this last couple of seasons. Yu-Na Kim has been leaving everyone else in the dust. I'm not sure if it's partly (or largely) caused by the recent rule changes (i.e. "flutz"), but her performances clearly indicate that one can use those changes to her advantage. Those who used to shine - Mao Asada, Mirai Nagasu, Alissa Czisny to name a few - have a lot to work on if they want an Olympic medal.

 

[gkelly]

Those who used to shine - Mao Asada, Mirai Nagasu, Alissa Czisny to name a few - have a lot to work on if they want an Olympic medal.

And of those, only Asada would really have a clear shot at an Olympic medal if she lands most of her jumps.

That Nagasu and Czisny (whom I guess you singled out because they're the last two US champions?) would even be in the running is thanks to the fact that things like spins and spirals now have explicit value.
Their skating is good but not on the same level as Asada or Kim. Their jumps are never a real strength and often a significant weakness. As lovely as they are to watch, would anyone really consider them Olympic medal contenders under the old system either?

About the ladies vs. men, I'm thinking back to 1996 Worlds, for example. I went to a skating lesson the following week and the coach was excited about how good the ladies' final had been. I couldn't really agree. The top two skaters gave great performances. Everyone else was pretty dismal. It was a very disappointing event as a whole. Ito's return especially.

On the other hand, the top four men's LPs were really strong, and there were several other skaters who bombed one program and were great in the other (Urmanov and Candeloro, for example) or had good programs with a moderate mistake in both (Zagorodniuk), etc. It was just an exciting event all around.

At how many Grand Prix events in the 90s were there multiple splats among the ladies' medalists? How many times did Butyrskaya win with multiple splats of her own? The rest of the fields were even more dire.

Clean and interesting programs have always been the exception in ladies skating, especially since multiple triple jumps became the name of the game. It's not a new phenomenon. Of course, those exceptions are the ones most likely to be broadcast and watched, rewatched, and remembered fondly.

 

[janetfan]

.
But you didn't get the commentators gushing about how attractive and charming the men were as visual commodities the way they did with the women; the commentary focused more on the technical side, or abstract discussions of aesthetics when warranted.
(Well, by the 1990s you did get some women commentators daring to gush a little.)

.

Not so important, but here is some gushing by a lady commentator from back in 1984 - and it is not about the costume

But the gushing is by a lady about a Lady, maybe that was not quite your point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfv4mLzuMSU

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's obvious Men serve CoP better than Ladies, especially in the Technical and the PCS for Men are better than one thinks. It's just that it is thought 'that ballet arms' are the only arms of beauty. Silly thoughts!, imo.

Just look at the Point Scoring System. Jumps get higher scores than 'ballet arms'. Then ask yourself. Who gets most of the jumps scores? The Men! Ladies do get more for Spirals which Men can't be bothered with. But the Final highest scores go to the Men. Men do Spin as well as the Ladies, unless one is talking about contorting the body position.

I would add there is some mystery at how the Point Scores were arrived at. I doubt it was done scientifically. Probably getting the consensus of a few skaters.
I mean like, who is to say a Flip is more difficult than a Perfect Salchow? A Toe-off of a Flip keeps that Salchow from pre rotating, but there are a few skaters who can execute a Perfect Salchow.

I don't wish to compare Ladies with Men in Figure Skating but the question was asked.

 

[DarkestMoon]

Could it be the men have better skating skills than the ladies thus better suited for CoP? The ladies have more problems with edge calls and URs.

The men are also conditioning differently from the ladies such as hitting the gym. Where as the ladies most of them are training by taking ballet lessons. Ballet classes are not helping the ladies to jump higher nor skate faster. It seems that the focus on flexibility and pretty moves really hurt the ladies. Some of the ladies skating today don't appear to have much strength out on the ice.

I think the difference between the disciplines is the basic skating skills and the off ice training.

 

[gkelly]

Not so important, but here is some gushing by a lady commentator from back in 1984 - and it is not about the costume

But the gushing is by a lady about a Lady, maybe that was not quite your point.

Well, it supports my point that women were being constructed by the media as visual commodities and men weren't. But I don't think Fleming's enthusiasm for Katarina Witt was meant to convey any sexual attraction like some later female enthusiasm for male skaters (Who was it who was so gaga over Artur Dmitriev?)

Could it be the men have better skating skills than the ladies thus better suited for CoP? The ladies have more problems with edge calls and URs.

I don't think the edge calls (on lutzes) and URs speak to skating skills per se. I think those result from the fact that women on average don't jump as high or naturally have the upper body strength to get as much rotational snap, so they take shortcuts on rotation to get the jumps landed.

Men probably get more edge calls on flips than women do, and the women who do get them tend to be the higher jumpers (Czisny excepted).

However, I do think that we don't see much of the complex and riskily deep edges from women that we do from a handful of male skaters such as Buttle, Chan, and Abbott. I don't know why, except to guess that the women are busy working on spirals instead. Or need to spend more time training jumps that come relatively easily to the men.
It's not as though most men do that kind of edge work. But definitely more than women. I guess Kwan came closest, but that was before IJS.

 

[Mathman]

Just for fun, how about holding a unisex competition, short program only. The men have to skate under the ladies' rules.

That puts the jump content limits back to what they were for men in 1998. More men than women will include triple axels and/or triple-triple combos, so we would still expect men to rack up more points for the jumps.

But how many men are going to be able to execute level 4 laybacks and spiral sequences with positive GOE? The women's areas of superiority (as a group, not all individuals) will become readily apparent.

That would be fun, but I am afraid it would be seen as just a cheesy gimmick, like a Bobby Riggs - Billie Jean King tennis match.

Men can do many things better than women. For instance, more men than women can whistle. More men than women understand the infield fly rule in baseball. Here is a sex secret for all you ladies out there. If you want to make your guy feel like a macho he-man and red-hot lover, ask him to explain the infield fly rule to you. When he gets to the part about what happens if there are already two outs, go "ooo ooo." :yes:

 

[prettykeys]

...

No.

 

[janetfan]

Men can do many things better than women. For instance, more men than women can whistle. More men than women understand the infield fly rule in baseball. Here is a sex secret for all you ladies out there. If you want to make your guy feel like a macho he-man and red-hot lover, ask him to explain the infield fly rule to you. When he gets to the part about what happens if there are already two outs, go "ooo ooo." :yes:

How about a woman who has finaly convinced her boyfriend to watch figure skating with her. He is watching but doesn't understand why some skaters are getting better scores than others.

She tries to explain some of the scoring rules to him which leaves him even more confused. He is disappointed when Kiira only gets second place because he thought she was the prettiest and therefore the best.

A fight is about to breakout when the men's competiton begins. He likes this even less and starts laughing at some of the costumes. Now she is getting very mad.

Then Evan appears and suddenly his eyes are glued to the screen. Evan begins to skate and he asks her to please turn up the volume.
His girlfriend is pleased that he is finaly showing some appreciation for her beloved figure skating.
Evan finishes and she says, "so you really liked that guy."
He gives her a puzzled look and says "no, I just happen to really love Scheherazade."
He then asks, "but why were they playing it while he was skating?"

 

[Mafke]

Considering how large the female audience is for figure skating, and how traditionally ladies is the most popular discipline (usually the highest ratings), I think it was unutterably _stupid_ of the ISU to come up with a scoring system that makes ladies skating look like a pale imitation of mens skating.

There was no particular reason it had to be that way, it was a choice, conscious or not.

Way to alienate your prime audience ISU!!!!

 

[evangeline]

Then Evan appears and suddenly his eyes are glued to the screen. Evan begins to skate and he asks her to please turn up the volume.
His girlfriend is pleased that he is finaly showing some appreciation for her beloved figure skating.
Evan finishes and she says, "so you really liked that guy."
He gives her a puzzled look and says "no, I just happen to really love Scheherazade."
He then asks, "but why were they playing it while he was skating?"

 

[janetfan]

Am glad one person got it.

Even if you are a "young'un" I must remember never to underestimate your exceptional intelligence and dazzling wit again Evangeline.

I never knew there were so many Evan fans here. Where is seniorita when you need her?

 

[Olympia]

I was in stitches by the time I finished your post, Janetfan.

Mathman, I feel psychic: just this afternoon, watching NHK, I was struck by the scary thought that the CoP was more suited to men than to women, and here I found this thread. Ironic, isn't it? Skating is perhaps the one sport in which women have been consistently immortalized, and now it looks as though--wait for it-- women really aren't good enough at it. What's wrong with this picture?

I understand why Management (meaning the ISU) wants every element of skating quantified, to insure the most accurate scoring. The trouble is that skating is not a quantifiable sport. If point score is all that matters, as you say, I should want to watch Tim Goebel more than I want to watch Michelle Kwan. The day has not yet dawned where that would be true! In fact, though I admire Plushenko for his meticulous skating and hard work, I wouldn't want to watch him rather than Michelle Kwan, either.

Yeah, I get it that guys are stronger than girls. I get it that only thirteen-year-old girls are strong enough to be CoP skaters (except, thank God, YuNa). Is that the sport we want in our future--a bunch of spunky sprites who will never be able to interpret the Adagietto from Mahler's Fifth Symphony? Much as I am deeply glad that YuNa exists and thrives, it seems to me that maybe CoP for women should weigh different factors than CoP for men.

Maybe women skaters are just in a trough and will improve when taught better. But Management should make sure that this is the case, or we won't just lose a generation of skaters. We'll lose a generation of viewers. And then it won't matter that CoP is mathematically accurate. Everyone will be watching wrestling and auto racing.

 

[janetfan]

I was in stitches by the time I finished your post, Janetfan.

Mathman, I feel psychic: just this afternoon, watching NHK, I was struck by the scary thought that the CoP was more suited to men than to women, and here I found this thread. Ironic, isn't it? Skating is perhaps the one sport in which women have been consistently immortalized, and now it looks as though--wait for it-- women really aren't good enough at it. What's wrong with this picture?

I understand why Management (meaning the ISU) wants every element of skating quantified, to insure the most accurate scoring. The trouble is that skating is not a quantifiable sport. If point score is all that matters, as you say, I should want to watch Tim Goebel more than I want to watch Michelle Kwan. The day has not yet dawned where that would be true! In fact, though I admire Plushenko for his meticulous skating and hard work, I wouldn't want to watch him rather than Michelle Kwan, either.

Yeah, I get it that guys are stronger than girls. I get it that only thirteen-year-old girls are strong enough to be CoP skaters (except, thank God, YuNa). Is that the sport we want in our future--a bunch of spunky sprites who will never be able to interpret the Adagietto from Mahler's Fifth Symphony? Much as I am deeply glad that YuNa exists and thrives, it seems to me that maybe CoP for women should weigh different factors than CoP for men.

Maybe women skaters are just in a trough and will improve when taught better. But Management should make sure that this is the case, or we won't just lose a generation of skaters. We'll lose a generation of viewers. And then it won't matter that CoP is mathematically accurate. Everyone will be watching wrestling and auto racing.

I appreciate what you wrote here (and I am not refering to my silly post).

This is a whimsical topic but you just expressed very clearly what has been bugging me. Some very knowledgeable skating fans have said "Yuna and Joannie can do it so the rest just have to fix their problems and work harder."

They should know better because it is unfounded to suggest skaters like Mao and Laura and Rachael are not working hard. It is not only unfair to make such statements but shows a failure to grasp what we are seeing so far this season.

As I recall, Joannie looked quite ordinary at COC and not sure if she belongs in a group that includes Yuna. I really don't know what the answer is but every indication is that ratings are down even in an Olympic season and viewers are finding more interesting things to do than watching figure skating.

NBC did have two hours of coverage today from NHK but we had such beautiful weather here I went for a 40 mile bicycle ride instead of watching the latest slopfest brought to us by Speedy Inc.

They lost me today and that is unusual but I promise to watch SA next week.

 

[SusieH]

Thank everyone for this interesting discussion. I enjoyed reading it a lot. While it seems that the current generation of women haven't fared as well as men under CoP, I think the next generation will do better. After all, the CoP was implemented when most of the current skaters were already competing. Coaches of the young skaters now, knowing that the girls will have to deal with CoP, will surely pay more attention to correct edges and enough rotations and etc. Personally I don't think CoP kills the artistry in women's programs---Just look at Lepisto and Rochette. Who can deny the fact that they are graceful skaters with pleasing, interesting programs? The biggest problem for women today seems to be edge calls and UR calls (and in Lepisto and Rochette's cases, nerves, nerves, nerves).

So, maybe we viewers just have to suffer for a few more years. hwell:

 

[prettykeys]

I'm just going to throw an idea out there to toy with, but first I want to say something (best pun ever mwahahahah you'll see!)

In my opinion, regardless of scores and who wins or doesn't win, there aren't that many female skaters I truly enjoy watching, period. YuNa Kim, Mao Asada, Ashley Wagner, and Alena Leonova, and the Caroline Zhang before this season. (Sasha, if she's coming back, as well, but she's not really considered "of this generation".)

It seems like a lot of people who have less interest in figure skating these days are nostalgic for skaters who skated before. (e.g. Michelle Kwan.) Does your enjoyment of a performance hinge on their score and placement? I guess it could for some fans, but it doesn't for me. Even if we reverted to 6.0 (an inferior judging system, IMO) I'd still be watching and focusing on my favourites.

I still do not think the Figure Skating decline has to do with the changed system. As lovely as Ashley, Alena, and Caroline are, they would not have been competitive favourites under 6.0 either. I think the two historically strongest Figure Skating nations (Russia and the USA) have lost quality skaters, and thus are just less interested in watching in general. Japan is as strong--if not stronger--than ever. I'd wager that Figure Skating spectatorship in Japan is higher than it was about 10 years ago. Is there any American female skater today (excepting Sasha) who is as good as Kwan? Or Kerrigan? Harding? Yamaguchi? Not by standing, but by skill. I say no.

I say these things because personally, I lost interest towards the Kerrigan/Harding thing and recently came back with some of the newer stars who once again piqued my interest in this sport.

Seriously, consider the difference between association and causation. I don't think the CoP has caused the diminished interest of USA and Russia in Figure Skating. So many Americans would love to see Sasha and Kwan still skate and compete, even under CoP. That should be a good indicator that it's skater-based and not rule-based.

Then you have people who only watch when their country's athletes are winning. That should be a non-factor when considering what rules are fair.

However, I was thinking the other day and I will concede that perhaps the underrotation rules for women regarding triple jumps could be made a little bit more lax based on the fact that maybe it really is far more difficult (due to the female anatomy) for the general population of lady skaters to make the same degree of rotations as guys. Instead of having whole jumps discounted or massively mark-reduced, give a 1/4 more "room" for acceptable underrotation (relative to guys) and instead allow for a greater +GOE's (again, citing how much more difficult it may be for a woman to get similar # of rotations and height, etc. as for men). As much as I want to be a purist and keep rules consistent between men and women, the reality IS that women have more body mass centred around the hips (instead of in the chest that makes men more like spinning tops.)

Yes, this is a man:
http://zoeedog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/spinning_top.jpg

What do ya'll think?