Ladies vs. Men and the CoP

[Mathman]

Yes, this is a man

http://zoeedog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/spinning_top.jpg

What do ya'll think?

I am not so sure about that. This one is a little more hippy.

http://www.countryliving.com/cm/countryliving/images/CLX0206COL012-de.jpg

I don't think that men can spin faster than women. Can any men out-spin Denise Biellmann or Lucinda Rue?

Jumping, though, that's another story. Men's legs are more straight under them. Plus I think greater upper body strength is the main reason why men can do triple Lutzes but most ladies can't.

 

[janetfan]

I'm just going to throw an idea out there to toy with, but first I want to say something (best pun ever mwahahahah you'll see!)

In my opinion, regardless of scores and who wins or doesn't win, there aren't that many female skaters I truly enjoy watching, period. YuNa Kim, Mao Asada, Ashley Wagner, and Alena Leonova, and the Caroline Zhang before this season. (Sasha, if she's coming back, as well, but she's not really considered "of this generation".)

It seems like a lot of people who have less interest in figure skating these days are nostalgic for skaters who skated before. (e.g. Michelle Kwan.) Does your enjoyment of a performance hinge on their score and placement? I guess it could for some fans, but it doesn't for me. Even if we reverted to 6.0 (an inferior judging system, IMO) I'd still be watching and focusing on my favourites.

I still do not think the Figure Skating decline has to do with the changed system. As lovely as Ashley, Alena, and Caroline are, they would not have been competitive favourites under 6.0 either. I think the two historically strongest Figure Skating nations (Russia and the USA) have lost quality skaters, and thus are just less interested in watching in general. Japan is as strong--if not stronger--than ever. I'd wager that Figure Skating spectatorship in Japan is higher than it was about 10 years ago. Is there any American female skater today (excepting Sasha) who is as good as Kwan? Or Kerrigan? Harding? Yamaguchi? Not by standing, but by skill. I say no.

I say these things because personally, I lost interest towards the Kerrigan/Harding thing and recently came back with some of the newer stars who once again piqued my interest in this sport.

Seriously, consider the difference between association and causation. I don't think the CoP has caused the diminished interest of USA and Russia in Figure Skating. So many Americans would love to see Sasha and Kwan still skate and compete, even under CoP. That should be a good indicator that it's skater-based and not rule-based.

Then you have people who only watch when their country's athletes are winning. That should be a non-factor when considering what rules are fair.

However, I was thinking the other day and I will concede that perhaps the underrotation rules for women regarding triple jumps could be made a little bit more lax based on the fact that maybe it really is far more difficult (due to the female anatomy) for the general population of lady skaters to make the same degree of rotations as guys. Instead of having whole jumps discounted or massively mark-reduced, give a 1/4 more "room" for acceptable underrotation (relative to guys) and instead allow for a greater +GOE's (again, citing how much more difficult it may be for a woman to get similar # of rotations and height, etc. as for men). As much as I want to be a purist and keep rules consistent between men and women, the reality IS that women have more body mass centred around the hips (instead of in the torso that makes men more like spinning tops.)

Yes, this is a man:
http://zoeedog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/spinning_top.jpg

What do ya'll think?

Excellent post prettykeys. Very good, logical points and certainly with a slant that feels true regarding the quality of skating from nations used to seeing more competitive skaters. Actually, I think skating is doing OK in Russia despite them not being as strong in as they have been in the past. I am sure Plushy's return is certainly helping but from what I hear they still have alot of TV coverage there.

I think Olympia hit on something that registered with me and it was definitely much more about aesthetics rather than winning. Skating has never been about winning to me and the fact that Michelle became even more beloved in the USA after LOSING, first in Nagano and then in Salt Lake City should not and can not be ignored. Watching the love Michelle was shown at her Gala skate in SLC speaks, even screams volumes about how American fans felt about her.

I still think you are right to suggest a lack of stars (Evan and Johnny never came close in that department), especially among our current ladies has had a big impact. But I saw some of the clips from NHK and quite frankly had no desire to give up a beautiful afternoon to stay in and watch it today on a nice big TV.

Susie suggested "we will just have to suffer for a few more years" but when did watching figure skating become about "suffering."

 

[Tinymavy15]

Then Evan appears and suddenly his eyes are glued to the screen. Evan begins to skate and he asks her to please turn up the volume.
His girlfriend is pleased that he is finaly showing some appreciation for her beloved figure skating.
Evan finishes and she says, "so you really liked that guy."
He gives her a puzzled look and says "no, I just happen to really love Scheherazade."
He then asks, "but why were they playing it while he was skating?"

Great story. Thanks for the laugh!

 

[skatingbc]

Yeah, I get it that guys are stronger than girls. I get it that only thirteen-year-old girls are strong enough to be CoP skaters (except, thank God, YuNa).

I actually disagree with this. I think that actually, the ladies field is aging (read early 20s lol). With more emphasis on proper technique, I think the benefit is given to the older skaters who are often stronger and have had more time to perfect their jumping technique. Under 6.0, there was more leeway for girls with flutzes and lips and jumps that weren't even close to being rotated. These errors weren't penalized as much, if at all, under 6.0. Honestly, if we were under 6.0 right now, I think Caroline and Mirai would be ruling the roost, along with YuNa and Mao (of previous years).

This will probably change in the coming years because coaches will actually teach their students proper technique from the get-go instead of waiting to see if they make the big leagues or not.

 

[Olympia]

I agree that there aren't many women skaters I enjoy watching these days. I have about the same list you do, prettykeys. But again that makes me ask, why is that? Why aren't women skaters more interesting to me? I have pretty broad tastes, and I'm not chauvinistic: I loved Kwan wholeheartedly for the span of her career but these days enjoy Kim and Asada very much and am growing fond of Suzuki and Leonova. And I love lots of men skaters from lots of different countries. What is missing from women's skating right now?

Because it seems also that there aren't many women skaters who enjoy skating these days, either. To me it seems that most skaters are so cowed by UR penalties and edge calls that they're moving around like deer in the headlights out there. (Always excepting Kim, of course. Thank goodness for her, and can she please skate at all the GP competitions?) Prettykeys, you mentioned skating's resurgence in Japan, and they do have a deep field of five or so world-class skaters. But if you look more closely, none of them are giving powerful performances, either. Miki Ando often seems to win by default; she isn't consistent. Nakano is a lovely skater--except for that wrapped leg that looks like a loose shoelace every time she does a Lutz, and it puts my heart in my mouth as much as a loose shoelace would do, as well. And she has given up her triple Axels. And Mao--well. To my mind, she's one of the most talented skaters from any country even now. Yet "Growth spurt" can't possibly explain the extent of her meltdown. Suzuki has done a fine job so far, thank goodness.

I keep thinking of gymnastics and hoping that skating won't end up like it, with men competing in the guys' category and children in the ladies' category. But then something else about gymnastics struck me. In gymnastics, men and women don't do the same events at all. Men's events stress strength, especially upper body strength, and ladies' events stress agility. Is there some differentiation that should be implemented in skating? I don't mean that men shouldn't skate to music, but should different moves be valued more than is happening now? What is it that makes ladies' skating unique, and how can that uniqueness be exploited for the enjoyment of both viewers and skaters?

Just a thought.

 

[prettykeys]

I am not so sure about that. This one is a little more hippy.

http://www.countryliving.com/cm/countryliving/images/CLX0206COL012-de.jpg

I don't think that men can spin faster than women. Can any men out-spin Denise Biellmann or Lucinda Rue?

Jumping, though, that's another story. Men's legs are more straight under them. Plus I think greater upper body strength is the main reason why men can do triple Lutzes but most ladies can't.

Mathman, for your example - imagine a top of the same mass as that, but with more mass shifted upwards. I think it would spin faster than your "hippy" top.

But what's more important is spinning in the air--men also can jump higher also because their centre of gravity is higher (and also a greater proportion of their body mass is higher). More upper body strength and muscle mass contributes to that as well.

ETA: But I changed my mind, I think torque (location of the arms relative to the centre of mass, since arms are what drive spins) is the most important reason why men spin faster, as I posted below

 

[prettykeys]

I keep thinking of gymnastics and hoping that skating won't end up like it, with men competing in the guys' category and children in the ladies' category. But then something else about gymnastics struck me. In gymnastics, men and women don't do the same events at all. Men's events stress strength, especially upper body strength, and ladies' events stress agility. Is there some differentiation that should be implemented in skating? I don't mean that men shouldn't skate to music, but should different moves be valued more than is happening now? What is it that makes ladies' skating unique, and how can that uniqueness be exploited for the enjoyment of both viewers and skaters?

I thought the same thing! And I believe gkelly alluded to that, too. Maybe certain features that are women's strengths should be emphasized in female Figure Skating (e.g. flexibility/positions) and reflected with a greater boost in points for those types of things -- spins, spirals, etc.

 

[prettykeys]

Also, if arms are driving the spinning power, consider that men's centre of mass (the chest) is much closer to where the arms are. Women's CoM is at the hips, and the arms are higher up -- i.e. the arms can't control and affect the CoM as directly in women. What is that--women have less torque?

 

[Olympia]

I think Mathman or one of the other experts alluded to torque a few years ago when discussing and describing the difference between male and female jumping aptitude, prettykeys. You just brought up an interesting aspect of it that I hadn't thought of, though--not just that men's center of gravity is higher but that their arms (their "propellers," as it were) are closer to that center. That's certainly an advantage for jumping!

 

[Mathman]

Here is the Guiness Book of World Records title holder for the fastest spin. This is Natalia Kanonnikova in 2007, 308 revolutions per minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQLtcEAG9v0

Kanonnikova's techinique seems to be to use a big, swinging free leg to generate the angular momentum, then draw in to a standard tight scratch position.

I think Lucinda Ruh still holds the record for the most revolutions in a spin, 115. Does that get an extra feature under CoP?

 

[prettykeys]

Ah, okay. Maybe the top is a better example of female advantage in "grounded" spins.

But men are faster in the air.

And I think that fact would be true, even if the arm-strength were the same between a man and a woman.

 

[janetfan]

Just a thought about "the evils of 6.0" since it was mentioned several times on this topic.

Looking at Michelle and Irina - I would say the alleged great improvements of CoP has yet to prouduce two jumpers who can rival their great consistency.

I will concede Yuna - but I said two.

As I think about this and the earlier "gymnastics" reference, it seems to feel like we are experiencing a major downturn in Ladies jumping since Michelle and Irina retired.

Take Chen-Lu for example. With more consistent jumps she might have won more titles in the 6.0 era. If she was skating today we would think of her as one of the best jumpers - not to mention how superior her artistry was compared to all but a couple of today's skaters.

CoP seems to have excellerated the race for Ladies to do more difficult jumps at a younger age. Many are excited by so many 14 -15 year olds doing 3x3's only to see them lose it by the time they get a few years older. The reason - bad technique caused by the rush to collect points and rack up big scores.

Actuallly, I think it is not too much to suggest skaters from a few years ago were better technically based on what we are seeing this year.

Now isn't that a different conclusion.
Some say the ladies were not penalized the way they are for ur's and edge calls and I would say, maybe because they weren't "cheating" as many jumps as today's ladies are because they had BETTER technique.

Thinking of Dorothy, then Katerina, through to Midori and Kristi I wonder how bad the skater's jumps from 6.0 were compared to today's skaters.

Let the "shredding" begin ...........

ETA: Thinking of Dorothy's 2A from 1976 and Midori's 3A from '92 I see very few ladies today that match either of these jumps for proper technique and beauty. So many of the current ladies can't do a beautiful 2A and yet they are concerned with 3x3's which most can't do properly either.

 

[bekalc]

Take Chen-Lu for example. With more consistent jumps she might have won more titles in the 6.0 era. If she was skating today we would think of her as one of the best jumpers - not to mention how superior her artistry was compared to all but a couple of today's skaters.

Chen Lu was a spectacular jumper. And to be frank many people think she should have won more world titles than she did. She outjumped Oksana at 1993 Worlds-many think she should have won there. Many think she should have won the free program at the 1994 Olympics. And lots of people think that she should have beaten Michelle at 1996 Worlds. That's a real debatable result.

Lu's issue was not having a lot of political sport. If she had been from the United States/Russia for example-she'd have won a lot more titles.

To be frank, this is one area where COP is helpful. It's a bit easier for a skater from a lesser known country to make a mark under COP. Although of course PCS scores can hold people down.

And as for the girls today not having the consistency Michelle/Irina had. Well Michelle for example didn't have to worry about Level 4 spins, level 3 footwork, and she'd probably face some ! calls as well. Its really unfair to talk about jump consistency when there are more technical demands on the girls now than there were in the past.

 

[prettykeys]

Chen Lu was a spectacular jumper. And to be frank many people think she should have won more world titles than she did. She outjumped Oksana at 1993 Worlds-many think she should have won there. Many think she should have won the free program at the 1994 Olympics. And lots of people think that she should have beaten Michelle at 1996 Worlds. Lu's jumps were of much more quality than Michelle's.

And as for the girls today not having the consistency Michelle/Irina had. Well Michelle for example didn't have to worry about Level 4 spins, level 3 footwork, and she'd probably face some ! calls as well. Its really unfair to talk about jump consistency when there are more technical demands on the girls now than there were in the past.

Uh, it's also kind of "unfair" to compare a 7-year old judging system to one that's been around for ages. Gee, I wonder why the older system just happens to have had more skaters as examples of consistency????

 

[bekalc]

Uh, it's also kind of "unfair" to compare a 7-year old judging system to one that's been around for ages. Gee, I wonder why the older system just happens to have had more skaters as examples of consistency????

Well that too. But I truly wasn't getting where lack of consistent jumps was what hurt Lu Chen's career. From what I saw (not in 1998 where she was a shadow of herself) jumps were never what held Lu Chen back. You can't even make that argument for 1996 Worlds because while Michelle did land one more 3toe, and I think a 3/3 and Lu Chen didn't. The quality of Lu Chen's jumps were by far superior...

 

[janetfan]

Chen Lu was a spectacular jumper. And to be frank many people think she should have won more world titles than she did. She outjumped Oksana at 1993 Worlds-many think she should have won there. Many think she should have won the free program at the 1994 Olympics. And lots of people think that she should have beaten Michelle at 1996 Worlds. That's a real debatable result.

Lu's issue was not having a lot of political sport. If she had been from the United States/Russia for example-she'd have won a lot more titles.

To be frank, this is one area where COP is helpful. It's a bit easier for a skater from a lesser known country to make a mark under COP. Although of course PCS scores can hold people down.

And as for the girls today not having the consistency Michelle/Irina had. Well Michelle for example didn't have to worry about Level 4 spins, level 3 footwork, and she'd probably face some ! calls as well. Its really unfair to talk about jump consistency when there are more technical demands on the girls now than there were in the past.

Fair enough - only brought it up because it was mentioned 6.0 ladies couldn't jump like today's girls. After thinking about this I realize many fans of CoP don't remeber how great the ladies from the 90's were. I agree with you about Lulu, I loved her skating more than anyone today, including Yuna. But she was never as consistent through her career as Michelle or Irina.

 

[janetfan]

Uh, it's also kind of "unfair" to compare a 7-year old judging system to one that's been around for ages. Gee, I wonder why the older system just happens to have had more skaters as examples of consistency????

Because right now there is only one Lady who could be considered a consistent jumper and even she does not do the full range of triples the way Michele and Irina did.
Why is that?

 

[prettykeys]

Is there any American female skater today (excepting Sasha) who is as good as Kwan? Or Kerrigan? Harding? Yamaguchi? Not by standing, but by skill. I say no.

Fair enough - only brought it up because it was mentioned 6.0 ladies couldn't jump like today's girls. After thinking about this I realize many fans of CoP don't remeber how great the ladies from the 90's were.

Interesting!

Because right now there is only one Lady who could be considered a consistent jumper and even she does not do the full range of triples the way Michele and Irina did.
Why is that?

Because she doesn't have to--and yet she can do it, perfectly.

 

[janetfan]

Because she doesn't have to--and yet she can do it, perfectly.

You are way, way smarter than that - it's like me saying Irina could do 3A's but chose not to. Let's stick with what we see on the ice.
And it is quite factual to say Orser does not think Yuna can do a 3L consistently enough to include in competitions.

 

[prettykeys]

You are way, way smarter than that - it's like me saying Irina could do 3A's but chose not to. Let's stick with what we see on the ice.
And it is quite factual to say Orser does not think Yuna can do a 3L in competition

Uh, excuse me? YuNa incorporated a 3Loop into her Miss Saigon program.

Please let me know which program of Irina's had a 3axel.