Age Limits

[bekalc]

Maybe...although Mirai was national champion at 14 and Mao and Yu Na took the world by storm at 14 with their performances at the 2005 junior worlds. Also, if Mirai and Caroline had been competing the seniors the year they won the gold and silver junior titles (2007), they probably would have done very well. Kimmie was 14 when she landed the triple axel in her LP and won US bronze right? Maybe she was older....

It's just a hard thing to decide. Most female skaters by 16 have or have almost reached their full adult height and don't have little girl bodies anymore. At 14, I feel like most female skaters are at that in-between stage when they are still kind of like little kids, and that's why people don't want them at the Olympics. All the girls I mentioned above appeared to have changed a lot between 14 and 16, but this does not continue on for much long after(Mao and Yu Na at 19 look much as they did at 16, but not at 14)

Mirai won Nationals at 14, but the field was very weak. With Meissner imploding, Alissa's historic inconsistency, Ashley being not very polished, Hughes no longer skating well and not there. In a deeper US ladies field, Mirai's skate would not have won. I mean Yu-na was winning Korean National championships at 12 too.

It's not like Meissner won the US National championship that year herself. And while she would have done well at Senior Worlds that year, both Asada and Kim would have done better. And I don't think either Asada or Kim would have beaten the skate that Irina put down..

Here's the thing too. Asada in 2004-2005 competed against Meissner three times, and beat her every time. Kim competed against Meissner two times and beat her every time. So you had a situation where the 2005 and 2006 Junior World champions were undefeated against the 2006 Senior World champion, before Meissner even won her world championship. And it wasn't because Asada and Kim were younger, because the "very old Miki Ando" beat Meissner at Junior Worlds too.
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And I don't think that Mao would have beaten the performance Irina Slutskaya laid down at 2005 Worlds anyways. Nor do I think Caroline and Mirai would have somehow managed to be on the medal stand at Senior worlds either. Heck they weren't even at Senior Nationals and neither managed to win a Senior Grand Prix event once. And since they had a luck to be born before July that year, they were only a couple of months older than Kim and Asada when those two became eligible.

Even now, I don't see any young Juniors on the JGP who would actually beat the Kim, Rochette, Ando, Asada if they skated well. Polina Shelepen could probably outjump everyone, but Polina would be held back by other things (and righfully so)

With things like GOE, tiny jumps aren't going to be rewarded as much.

 

[BravesSkateFan]

I don't know what the answer is, or what the best age limit should be, but whatever number they arrive at should apply completely accross the board - all ISU competitions should have the same age limit. It is totally ridiculous that younger competitors can compete in the GP, make the GPF, WIN the GPF and then be ruled too young to compete at an ISU championships and Olympics. It makes no sense and has no justification.

I completely agree with this. I think if you are a senior you should be eligible to compete in ALL senior competions and ineligible for all Junior competitions. The age limits for national competition should be the same as for international competition.

I don't have a problem with age limits I just want them to be consistent across the board.

I find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be an age problem with men, just with the ladies and sometimes pairs.

Off topic, but is there such a thing as pairs gymnastics? That would be cool.

The closest is acro.Here's some info from USA gymnastics
http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/acro/pages/what_is_acro.php

None are below 5'2", and more than half are 5'4" or above, a few are quite tall. I guess people around the world are just getting taller and it might be hurting skating

5'4"/5'5" is still short. 5'2" is defintely short.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I'm not sure how keeping the age limits is really protecting the child. I mean I think the hardest aspects for the child is the fact that he/she doesn't get to have much of a childhood...The biggest damages are also the injuries...To me the age limit is like putting a pig on lipstick when it comes to the issues with this sport on child exploitation, injuries etc.

Huh?

Laws don't always prevent actions, they codify them as wrong. The fact that murder is illegal doesn't prevent murders from happening, but I don't see how we can argue that means we shouldn't have laws. Which is basically the principle of your argument.

 

[bekalc]

Huh?

Laws don't always prevent actions, they codify them as wrong. The fact that murder is illegal doesn't prevent murders from happening, but I don't see how we can argue that means we shouldn't have laws. Which is basically the principle of your argument.

Laws are detterents. The difference with the age rule is what it doesn't do: It doesn't stop young athletes from pounding their bodies...It takes years to get up to the point where you can be at the international level,. I doubt Yu-na Kim would have trained any more if she had been age eligible for the Olympics than if she was not age eligible.

The same goes with gymnastics. Supposedly the age rules are to keep young athletes "healthy" by not getting them to work as hard. But we are currently seeing gymnasts who are not age eligible doing things like Amanar vaults. There was a Canadian gymnast probably their best gymnast who wasn't eligible for the Olympics due to age, she was eligible this year for Worlds but she was out for a major injury. Who knows if she'll ever be healthy for the 2012 Olympics. I'm sure she's not feeling "so protected" right now.

IF we were talking about a world championship, I could live with the age rules. But the fact that we are talking about the Olympics is what makes me disagree so strongly. The Olympics is every four years. There is no guarantee that an athlete will have four years later. So it feels cruel to tell an athlete, who has trained very hard, and is good enough to go that they can't go because they are too young.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

And that is where I disagree.

Having the age limits doesn't prevent possible exploitation, but it does say that the ISU doesn't endorse it. Basically, by having those age limits, the ISU is stating unequivocally that it's wrong to push an eleven year old to an insane regime. Even if that 11 year old turns out to be one the greatest skaters ever (I'm pretty sure Plushenko fits that bill), it's something that shouldn't happen. Additionally, those age limits may not prevent the hours of training, but it does limit things like competition exposure and travelling, and those are important, imo. Mao Asada stopped training with Arturian due to homesickness, and she was a young woman. Can you imagine if say she was twelve instead?

The fact is the possibility that a child might be exploited is enough for me to say that yes, these age limits should be in place. If the sport is configured such that only twisty-turny-bendy-posy 12 year olds can excel, then that is a sick sport (sick as in ill, not perverse/disgusting, though ask me tomorrow and I might say that). I don't think it's cruel at all. That individual you mention may not be feeling protected, and that's sad and it sucks that her dream may not be fulfilled. I can't deny that. But I can't endorse the idea that because of negative examples we ought to change a rule that has many good reasons for existing.

 

[silverlake22]

And that is where I disagree.

Having the age limits doesn't prevent possible exploitation, but it does say that the ISU doesn't endorse it. Basically, by having those age limits, the ISU is stating unequivocally that it's wrong to push an eleven year old to an insane regime. Even if that 11 year old turns out to be one the greatest skaters ever (I'm pretty sure Plushenko fits that bill), it's something that shouldn't happen. Additionally, those age limits may not prevent the hours of training, but it does limit things like competition exposure and travelling, and those are important, imo. Mao Asada stopped training with Arturian due to homesickness, and she was a young woman. Can you imagine if say she was twelve instead?

You make a good point. By having an age limit the ISU gives the impression that they are trying to protect athletes from gaining fame when they are too young. Really, the age they set the limit at doesn't matter much, but the fact that they have one does. Though 12-14 year olds may be more prone to injury and being so young may seem silly, at that age they are likely to be aloof to the pressures around them. Though a 16 year old is more physically and mentally mature, self esteem, confidence, and attitude issues are probably at their worst during the years of 16-17, and the appeal of rebellion and breaking the rules is also probably highest at these ages. In some ways an 18 year old age limit might make the most sense because skaters are legally adults and most have gotten over the tough teenage stage in life and have the maturity judges seem to be looking for now. But 18 is also a VERY long time to wait to compete, so that goes both ways. So yeah just an age limit in general is a good thing, though it probably shouldn't be any younger than 14 or 15

 

[prettykeys]

I agree with ImaginaryPogue and silverlake22 above. However, I don't think the ISU is simply aiming at appearing to not endorse child exploitation; I think the whole point is trying to reduce it and I think it does its job.

Of course adults can be exploited by the media--that's what tabloids are. But it's critical to protect the most vulnerable, and who (as a group) are more vulnerable to the media than children and early teenagers?

But yes, consistency in the Senior competitions as far as age goes would be welcome.

 

[skatingbc]

There's a little guy here in my area who moved up to Jr this year. People were already shocked that he was being pushed up so early as he's only 11 or 12. To be fair, he's not being pushed. As he won Novice at Nationals last year, he is not eligible to compete Novice again at a National level. He improves at a remarkable, but consistent rate. For example, his protocol from Summerskate:http://www.skatinginbc.com/Images/compresults/SummerSkate%202009/jrmfCompetitorSegDetailedResults.html (He's 7th) and his protocol from BC Sections: http://www.skatinginbc.com/Images/compresults/2010%20Sections/sd-jrmenfrev.html (He's 1st). He added a 3Lz, a 3T-3T, rotated his 3Lp, and his 3F. Huge improvement considering there are only a couple months between the two events. If there was no age limit, I have no doubt that he would immediately be pushed up into Sr once he starts landing 3A's, which considering his rate of improvement...maybe next summer? At 12 or 13? I don't think that is the best place for him. He's still a kid. You don't really want more Patrick Chan-like interviews do you?

 

[silverlake22]

He added a 3Lz, a 3T-3T, rotated his 3Lp, and his 3F. Huge improvement considering there are only a couple months between the two events. If there was no age limit, I have no doubt that he would immediately be pushed up into Sr once he starts landing 3A's, which considering his rate of improvement...maybe next summer? At 12 or 13? I don't think that is the best place for him. He's still a kid. You don't really want more Patrick Chan-like interviews do you?

For guys I think it is a little different, especially because their development rarely has negative effects on their skating. Evan Lysacek is like the best guy out their now and he's 6'2"....height and weight really doesn't seem to effect guys jumps like it often does girls. Plus at 13 or 15 a guy is still very much a little boy, whereas a girl that age, even if they still have a little girl body, is a lot closer to at least her adult height and weight. When Mao won junior worlds in 2005 and then went to win the 2005 GPF, an article said at 14 or 15 she was 5'2" and 85 pounds....now 4 years later she's only 5'4" and 100 pounds, not a very big change when you consider how much a guy grows during his teenage years. For guys the 16 year old age limit definitely makes sense

 

[Buttercup]

For guys I think it is a little different, especially because their development rarely has negative effects on their skating. Evan Lysacek is like the best guy out their now and he's 6'2"....height and weight really doesn't seem to effect guys jumps like it often does girls. Plus at 13 or 15 a guy is still very much a little boy, whereas a girl that age, even if they still have a little girl body, is a lot closer to at least her adult height and weight. When Mao won junior worlds in 2005 and then went to win the 2005 GPF, an article said at 14 or 15 she was 5'2" and 85 pounds....now 4 years later she's only 5'4" and 100 pounds, not a very big change when you consider how much a guy grows during his teenage years. For guys the 16 year old age limit definitely makes sense

Only in the sense that he is the current World Champion. He is not the best skater around in terms of results and his jump technique is certainly not great, He URs a lot for a top skater. I'm also not sure this is argument is relevant for the ladies' skaters, because the issue for women is not just height but also body shape. I would use Joannie as an example. She's 23, does not look like a baby ballerina, and her jump technique is wonderful - and she worked very hard post-puberty to make it so.

 

[i love to skate]

There's a little guy here in my area who moved up to Jr this year. People were already shocked that he was being pushed up so early as he's only 11 or 12. To be fair, he's not being pushed. As he won Novice at Nationals last year, he is not eligible to compete Novice again at a National level. He improves at a remarkable, but consistent rate. For example, his protocol from Summerskate:http://www.skatinginbc.com/Images/compresults/SummerSkate%202009/jrmfCompetitorSegDetailedResults.html (He's 7th) and his protocol from BC Sections: http://www.skatinginbc.com/Images/compresults/2010%20Sections/sd-jrmenfrev.html (He's 1st). He added a 3Lz, a 3T-3T, rotated his 3Lp, and his 3F. Huge improvement considering there are only a couple months between the two events. If there was no age limit, I have no doubt that he would immediately be pushed up into Sr once he starts landing 3A's, which considering his rate of improvement...maybe next summer? At 12 or 13? I don't think that is the best place for him. He's still a kid. You don't really want more Patrick Chan-like interviews do you?

Nam!

He is probably the most naturally talented kid I have seen in a looong time! If he continues to keep skating and keeps improving at this rate he is going to be ridiculously good when he hits 16. Look out 2018 He has some of the fastest rotation I've seen and has solid spins and footwork. His edges are

He does toe-axel though: Joanne McLeod please work on this now so he doesn't have problems with it down the road!

Here are a couple of his performances if anyone is interested.

He got to perform at the Gala at 4CC last year (what a thrill for a ten year old!): It starts at 4:15 - very cute interaction with Patrick as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8U--X4aUM&feature=related

His winning performance at Junior Nationals last year (Novice Division):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8U--X4aUM&feature=related

 

[bigsisjiejie]

He does toe-axel though: Joanne McLeod please work on this now so he doesn't have problems with it down the road!

Egad! If Joanne McLeod is his current coach, he needs to escape sooner not later.

 

[silverlake22]

Only in the sense that he is the current World Champion. He is not the best skater around in terms of results and his jump technique is certainly not great, He URs a lot for a top skater. I'm also not sure this is argument is relevant for the ladies' skaters, because the issue for women is not just height but also body shape. I would use Joannie as an example. She's 23, does not look like a baby ballerina, and her jump technique is wonderful - and she worked very hard post-puberty to make it so.

I didn't know that about Evan, too bad, he is amazing to watch! As for Joannie, she appears to be very naturally athletic which probably helps her jumps. She is chiseled and I'm pretty sure she isn't lifting heavy weights all the time to get that way. So for her, working so hard these past few years has been enough to make her great because she is super athelete, but that doesn't seem to work for everyone. I mean, there was always a lot of talk about how hard Kimmie practiced and worked out and she still managed to suffer. Kimmie and Joannie also have similar builds and most of the top skaters now are all built pretty differently and are different heights so that's why it's hard to make a decision on the age thing....do size and body type REALLY make a difference? In some cases yes, but in others i'd say no

 

[BravesSkateFan]

Only in the sense that he is the current World Champion. He is not the best skater around in terms of results and his jump technique is certainly not great, He URs a lot for a top skater. I'm also not sure this is argument is relevant for the ladies' skaters, because the issue for women is not just height but also body shape. I would use Joannie as an example. She's 23, does not look like a baby ballerina, and her jump technique is wonderful - and she worked very hard post-puberty to make it so.

Well In my book he's the best. He's one of only 2 or 3 male skaters today that I can actually watch without wanting to fast forward or change the channel. But I digress...

 

[silverlake22]

^^ I agree. His jumps are huge and he's artistic while still being manly. Pretty sure that's not easy to do

 

[skatingbc]

Well In my book he's the best. He's one of only 2 or 3 male skaters today that I can actually watch without wanting to fast forward or change the channel. But I digress...

IMO, this quality that a skater has that makes you want to watch them has nothing to do with their jumping ability. Great jumps help, but don't make the skater watchable. For instance, I can watch Shawn Sawyer and Jeremy Ten all day long. To they have the jumps? Rarely, but their showmanship and charisma are enough for me. I suppose this is a personal thing though.

 

[Buttercup]

Well In my book he's the best. He's one of only 2 or 3 male skaters today that I can actually watch without wanting to fast forward or change the channel. But I digress...

Clearly our shared sports fandom does not extend past baseball! I find myself bored by Evan, because I feel like I'm always watching the same program skated to music I've heard a million times before. To me, Brian, Tomas, Dai, Stephane and, god help me, even Plushenko, are much more exciting. And some skaters I don't find exciting but do find enjoyable - Jeremy Abbott being a good example.

But we'll always have the Braves .

I didn't know that about Evan, too bad, he is amazing to watch! As for Joannie, she appears to be very naturally athletic which probably helps her jumps. She is chiseled and I'm pretty sure she isn't lifting heavy weights all the time to get that way. So for her, working so hard these past few years has been enough to make her great because she is super athelete, but that doesn't seem to work for everyone. I mean, there was always a lot of talk about how hard Kimmie practiced and worked out and she still managed to suffer. Kimmie and Joannie also have similar builds and most of the top skaters now are all built pretty differently and are different heights so that's why it's hard to make a decision on the age thing....do size and body type REALLY make a difference? In some cases yes, but in others i'd say no

I meant that Joannie addressed existing jump issues - she spent a long time relearning her lutz so she's stop flutzing. Joannie almost never URs and gets no edge calls, which is pretty unique among male and female skaters (I've noticed the pairs skaters rarely get URs, why is that?). If skaters learn good technique and skating skills at a young age, they'll have an easier time of it later in their career - I think a classic case of someone who doesn't have those things is Caroline Zhang, which is why she's struggling right now.

 

[silverlake22]

I meant that Joannie addressed existing jump issues - she spent a long time relearning her lutz so she's stop flutzing. Joannie almost never URs and gets no edge calls, which is pretty unique among male and female skaters (I've noticed the pairs skaters rarely get URs, why is that?). If skaters learn good technique and skating skills at a young age, they'll have an easier time of it later in their career - I think a classic case of someone who doesn't have those things is Caroline Zhang, which is why she's struggling right now.

Yeah but maybe there is still hope for her. What you said about Joannie fixing her technique as an adult is promising, as is Alissa fixing her jumps a few years ago. Apparently it's a 2 year process, and in 2008 Alissa was really not doing well, but she came back stronger the next year and appears to keep progressing. Her jumps are still kinda iffy but she got rid of the leg wraps and when she lands them they are usually fine and rotated. Caroline just needs to get help fast if she wants a shot at 2014 olympics