Mid-Season Report: U.S. Ladies, R.D. Style | Page 16 | Golden Skate

Mid-Season Report: U.S. Ladies, R.D. Style

Here's a question for all of you:

Of all the considered contenders...Rachael, Ashley, Mirai, Caroline, Alissa, Sasha...which do you think the USFSA would be justified to place on the team should they place 3rd?

IMO, if Sasha and Alissa were to go 1-2, I think a case could be made for Rachael if she were 3rd.

If Rachael was 1st, Mirai 2nd and Ashley 3rd, I could see Ashley bumping Mirai IF Ashley wins the LP like she did last year. I dont see her bumping Alissa if she were 2nd.

I think when all is said and done though, I think as long #1 and 2 are a combination of the above mentioned Ladies, they will be on the Oly team.
 
Here's a question for all of you:

Of all the considered contenders...Rachael, Ashley, Mirai, Caroline, Alissa, Sasha...which do you think the USFSA would be justified to place on the team should they place 3rd?

IMO, if Sasha and Alissa were to go 1-2, I think a case could be made for Rachael if she were 3rd.

If Rachael was 1st, Mirai 2nd and Ashley 3rd, I could see Ashley bumping Mirai IF Ashley wins the LP like she did last year. I dont see her bumping Alissa if she were 2nd.

I think when all is said and done though, I think as long #1 and 2 are a combination of the above mentioned Ladies, they will be on the Oly team.

I agree with the last statement. I don't see Ashley or Alissa getting bumped, and a Rachael in 3rd would probably only bump a Mirai or Caroline in second, but even that's not a definite.

As long as there's no favoritism in the judging this year, I think 1 and 2 should go if it's one of the above 5 ladies. Rachael should easily come in 1st or 2nd if she performs like she normally does and the judges don't inflate the scores of someone like Alissa or Sasha to bump her off the top two spots.

The USFSA knows how these girls have been competing internationally and so I think they will be fair. If Alissa can't handle nationals, then she won't be able to handle the Olympics. Same goes for Ashley
 
Here's a question for all of you:

Of all the considered contenders......which do you think the USFSA would be justified to place on the team should they place 3rd?

I think they will be fair and send the top two. However, if a situation arises where Flatt does not melt down and still places 3rd, behind less seasoned competitor(s), I can see a case where that skater(s) would be passed over in favor of Rachel. Or, it's possible that the Oly team and World team might be different (i.e. send Flatt to worlds but not Olys). Nothing but speculation at this point. I once thought that they could send Wagner if she was 3rd (hence why I started the poll) but the more I think about it, the more I feel that she must make the top 2 to have a chance. only Rachel I think has A LITTLE BIT of "wiggle room".



If Rachael was 1st, Mirai 2nd and Ashley 3rd, I could see Ashley bumping Mirai IF Ashley wins the LP like she did last year. I dont see her bumping Alissa if she were 2nd.

Hmm. I don't know. Actually, I'd have it the other way around. Wagner will NOT bump Nagasu from the team, but there could be a situation where Czisny is bumped (not necessarily by Wagner though). But that said, neither her nor Wagner have particularly good track records at the Worlds. Is it better to have a lackluster track record, or none at all? (Rhetorical question, sort of.)
 
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Let's say Sasha wins and Mirai finishes 2nd and Rachael comes 3rd.

Why would anybody want to bump the 2nd place skater for the 3rd place skater unless the object is to do worse and not better.

Somehow I don't think Frank Carroll would take it very well if his skater earned the spot on the ice and then was bumped by someone with such limited Intl experience as Rachael. It's not like Rachael has this dazzling Intl resume when in fact it is very limited.
 
I personally would not bump Mirai in that case. I was just merely speculting what would need to happen for the USFSA to not send the top two. IMO, if say, Sasha was 1st, Alexe 2nd and Rachael 3rd, then it would be Sasha and Rachael to the Olympics. Maybe as a consolation prize, Alexe is given a spot to Worlds. I truly believe if any of my supposed Final Flight of Alissa, Ashley, Caroline, Mirai, Rachael and Sasha end up in the top two, those will be the two sent to Olympics. If the Silver winner is not of my list of contenders but Bronze is, I think the Silver Medalist will be bumped and "rewarded" a place on the Worlds team in favor of the Bronze Medalist. Now, if Gold is not one of the contenders, that person will be sent along with Silver, providing she is one of the contenders. Going to be very exciting!!!! :clap:

P.S....Janetfan...the USFSA has said Nationals is not the Olympic Qualifier, they reserve the right to appoint the team. Up until now, only the Gold Medalist has been guaranteed a spot. I think that is still the case, but for the other spot, there will be other competitions taken in to consideration so in that case, Frank has no leg to stand on if it is either Rachael or Ashley that bumps Mirai in your hypothetical situation.
 
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Very insightful analysis. Things have changed this year though, and though Alissa won nationals last year, I'm not sure if it was deserved or not. She got a 112 for the calliber of FS that would have gotten her a 100 internationally (which is what she has been getting internationally for her FS for the past two years or so).

Zhang and Nagasu BOTH had injuries last year, but while Mirai's seems to be better this year, Zhang's might still be an issue and the reason of her struggles.

Ashley also made the GPF this year and did well there, even though she was outscored by both Rachael and Alissa.

Alissa seems to have mastered the SP this season and only falters in the long. At high pressure events though (both worlds) she tends to falter in the short too. Worlds last year she didn't even have a lot of pressure, no one expected her to medal, but she must have been nervous being at such a big competition and messed up anyways.

(and the rest of the post)

Nice breakdown. It actually gives me another idea- a scenario where ONLY THIS YEAR'S placements are taken into account. That is, only competitions that took place in the year 2009 are looked at, with all prior results discarded- after all, what one could do a year or two ago, one may not be able to do now.

So, factoring in ONLY 2009 competitions, here's the lowdown. Note: fluff competitions and summer comps are not counted, but GPs, Worlds and Nats are. The most significant accomplishments of each skater (if I could find one) are bolded.

Czisny: 1st Nats, 11th Worlds, 4th COR, 2nd SC
Zhang: 3rd Nats (IIRC), 2nd Junior worlds, 4th Four Continents, 4th TEB, disaster at SC (can't remember her placement)
Nagasu: 5th Nats, WD Junior worlds, 4th SC. Did COC but can't remember her placement of the top of my head
Wagner: 4th Nats, 3rd Junior worlds (IIRC), 2nd COR, 3rd NHK, 4th GPF
Flatt: 2nd Nats, 5th Worlds, 4th COC (IIRC), 2nd SA (beating Mighty Kim in the FS)

So- That's only placements. When performances are taken into account, it's a little more even here than in Scenario One. YMMV of course...Note that this is based primarily on SPECULATION, not so much on RAW DATA. (Haven't the time to gather and crunch it.) SO with that disclaimer out of the way, let's go:

Wagner obviously was the only American to qualify for the GPF. She said that she thinks it will give her an advantage. Is she right? Well, she demonstrated through the GP season that she is gaining consistency, and that works in her favor. However, she had a legit chance to win NHK Trophy, and couldn't capitalize when the opportunity presented itself in the FS. But later competitions hold more weight, and despite a weak SP, she pulled herself up from last in the GPF to 4th. However, compared to the other Americans, she is actually about on par with Czisny as far as scoring goes, and behind Flatt. So it should not be overlooked that she got into the Final through easier qualifying groups, not necessarily through domination (although it should be mentioned that she placed above top contenders who happened to bomb the particular competition- e.g. Asada at COR and Rochette at GPF). Flatt STILL has the advantage because of her high SA score. Even though her competitors scored higher in the SP, she scored 15+ points higher than what everyone else has been averaging. Still, that was at her very best, and if you throw in a mistake or two, probably puts her down closer to 105, 110 range which still beats everyone except maybe Wagner at her best. Zhang had a really strong 4CCs and TEB before really tanking at SC. What's not known is whether that was an anomaly and she'll come roaring back, or whether that's the beginning of the end. Nagasu has had sort of a "meh" year, dealing with injury, setback, and now hammered with UR calls on jumps.

So...Flatt still gets on the Oly team, but not convincingly. The rest fight it out for the second spot, with Czisny and Wagner susceptible to bad SPs or FSs (but NOT both), Nagasu and Zhang steady in the balance. If Czisny has a knockout SP, she has a subpar FS/bombs it and her Oly chances are in jeopardy. If Wagner has a subpar SP and nails the FS, she could still be in it IF others fail. Zhang and Nagasu may not get the marks they need to really put the competition away and will always be on the bubble, even at their current best. So who gets the second spot? You might be surprised...



(it really depends on the given night.) But in this case, LET'S SAY for speculative reasons that Wagner gets it (a strong free program while others slip up), Nagasu is the alternate (good performance in the clutch, but UR calls bring her score down just enough to keep her off the team). Czisny takes a hit in one of the segments of the competition under "Reigning champ" pressure, and could either be in it or out of it, depending on how hard she bombs. She could be an alternate as well. Zhang recovers a little, but with SC still fresh in their heads, the judges hold her down enough to keep her from the top 2. Wagner has the edge over Czisny in this situation due to the results of Russia- Wagner got Silver while Alyssa finished 4th.

In a nutshell:

On The Team: Flatt, Wagner (barely)
Alternate: Nagasu OR Czisny

Contrast this with Scenario One, where Wagner and Czisny didn't stand a chance. But Flatt gets on the team in both cases. Of course, in reality, the massive elephant in the room that I call- drum roll please- THE X-FACTOR comes into play. (For those unfamiliar with my terminology- it refers to the intangibles, such as bombing potential, conditions at the arena, personal situations that could potentially distract the competitors, pressure (internal and external), skating first or last, skating after a knockout performance or a horrible one, etc.)

If ONLY numbers and averages are considered (no other factors!), I'd be curious to see how it comes out.
 
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I personally would not bump Mirai in that case. I was just merely speculting what would need to happen for the USFSA to not send the top two. IMO, if say, Sasha was 1st, Alexe 2nd and Rachael 3rd, then it would be Sasha and Rachael to the Olympics. Maybe as a consolation prize, Alexe is given a spot to Worlds. I truly believe if any of my supposed Final Flight of Alissa, Ashley, Caroline, Mirai, Rachael and Sasha end up in the top two, those will be the two sent to Olympics. If the Silver winner is not of my list of contenders but Bronze is, I think the Silver Medalist will be bumped and "rewarded" a place on the Worlds team in favor of the Bronze Medalist. Now, if Gold is not one of the contenders, that person will be sent along with Silver, providing she is one of the contenders. Going to be very exciting!!!! :clap:

P.S....Janetfan...the USFSA has said Nationals is not the Olympic Qualifier, they reserve the right to appoint the team. Up until now, only the Gold Medalist has been guaranteed a spot. I think that is still the case, but for the other spot, there will be other competitions taken in to consideration so in that case, Frank has no leg to stand on if it is either Rachael or Ashley that bumps Mirai in your hypothetical situation.

I can go along with what you are saying but Frank Carroll has a lot of influence and is a well known commodity. A word or two from him, quietly promising his skater is ready carries weight. You are implying reputation means nothing in the skating world and I am saying the exact opposite.

Up until this season the medalists at Natls were always given the spots. I will believe it is different when it actually happens.

I have been through this point a dozen times already and usually mathman explains why the rule was changed and what it actually means.

But there is a first time for everything and maybe US Nationals will be devalued.
I will certainly stop watching if that is the case. But we will have to wait and see.
 
Czisny: 1st Nats, 11th Worlds, 4th COR, 2nd SC
Zhang: 3rd Nats (IIRC), 4th Four Continents, 4th TEB, disaster at SC (can't remember her placement)
Nagasu: 5th Nats, WD Junior worlds, 4th SC. Did COC but can't remember her placement of the top of my head
Wagner: 4th Nats, 3rd Junior worlds (IIRC), 2nd COR, 3rd NHK, 4th GPF
Flatt: 2nd Nats, 5th Worlds, 4th COC (IIRC), 2nd SA (beating Mighty Kim in the FS)

You forgot something. Caroline came in 2nd at Junior Wolds.

OK, now here are the 6 events the USFSA said they would use to pick the Olympic team, and the top American finisher.

1) 2010 National Championship ........ not yet contested
2) 2009 Senior Grand Prix Final ........ Ashley Wagner
3) 2009 Worlds .................................. Rachael Flatt
4) 2009 Four Continents .................... Caroline Zhang
5) 2009 Junior Worlds ....................... Caroline Zhang
6) 2009 Junior Grand Prix Final ........ Christina Gao

So we would have to conclude that if any of these girls finish in the top 2 at Nationals, she would be on the Olympic team. If someone other than these 4 girls finished top 2, it gets complicated. It would probably depend on the margin of victory.
 
I definitely do not think that a skaters' reputation carries no weight! How can I devise a Final Flight of the 6 skaters I mentioned if that is the case? Of those skaters, Mirai is my fave, but I don't think she will have an easy time making the team, I think she needs to skate lights out and win a resounding Gold or Silver to be on the team. I do believe when all is said and done the top two will be on the team. My original post said just that. I was trying to start a discussion on what scenario could arise that would have TPTB derive from that path.
 
I definitely do not think that a skaters' reputation carries no weight! How can I devise a Final Flight of the 6 skaters I mentioned if that is the case? Of those skaters, Mirai is my fave, but I don't think she will have an easy time making the team, I think she needs to skate lights out and win a resounding Gold or Silver to be on the team. I do believe when all is said and done the top two will be on the team. My original post said just that. I was trying to start a discussion on what scenario could arise that would have TPTB derive from that path.

Ok - I think we actually agree about most of this.
I agree with you about Mirai. She is also my favorite but I agree she needs to perform very well at Natls to make the team.

I think in a year or two Mirai will begin to separate herself from the others due to superior talent and athletic abilty. But she needs more maturity and hard work for that to happen.
 
Word. First and second at Nationals go to the Olympics. You read it here first. :rofl:

OK, so let's bring this home to its logical conclusion. If in fact Miss Gold and Miss Silver go to Vancouver regardless, then one of two situations MUST be true. Either ............

A) The USFSA was being dishonest with us when they said other events will be considered. ................ OR ............

B) National results will be massaged to favor the girls who did well in the other 5 events.

Take your pick.
 
You forgot something. Caroline came in 2nd at Junior Wolds.

You're right. It slipped past me. I'll add it in.

ETA: Doesn't change the overall conclusion though!


OK, now here are the 6 events the USFSA said they would use to pick the Olympic team, and the top American finisher.

1) 2010 National Championship ........ not yet contested
2) 2009 Senior Grand Prix Final ........ Ashley Wagner
3) 2009 Worlds .................................. Rachael Flatt
4) 2009 Four Continents .................... Caroline Zhang
5) 2009 Junior Worlds ....................... Caroline Zhang
6) 2009 Junior Grand Prix Final ........ Christina Gao

So we would have to conclude that if any of these girls finish in the top 2 at Nationals, she would be on the Olympic team. If someone other than these 4 girls finished top 2, it gets complicated. It would probably depend on the margin of victory.

Yeah, it's not really clear. 1st and 2nd goes, I think, unless Flatt gets eeked out by someone other than Nagasu or Czisny (or Wagner?)
 
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You might consider this post just made by Grossano on another topic:

Originally Posted by gsrossano
This is a federal law passed in the 1978 (full name now is Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act) that regulates NGBs in the U.S., and provides certain legal protections to athletes. Among other things it requires athletes have at least 20% of the voting power within an NGB, and governs the rights of athletes when being selected for World and Olympic teams. It basically says that selection to an Olympic team must follow the order of finish in the selection competition or the NGB better has a superb reason why not.

If order of finish is not followed the athletes kept off the team can sue the NGB to get on, and force compliance with order of finish. So if Sasha was put on the team without having competed, or placed too low to make the team, the girl affected would be able to sue to get on the team, and would almost certainly win her case -- since helping out a failed comeback attempt after a four year absence with no competition record other than Nationals would most likely not be viewed as a superb reason.

Basically the law says the NGBs can't screw the athletes when it comes to selecting the Olympic team.
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I think this might also apply to Alissa - if she finished 1st or 2nd and they tried to bump her. Maybe Gossano will comment on that possibilty.
 
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OK, so let's bring this home to its logical conclusion. If in fact Miss Gold and Miss Silver go to Vancouver regardless, then one of two situations MUST be true. Either ............

A) The USFSA was being dishonest with us when they said other events will be considered. ................ OR ............

B) National results will be massaged to favor the girls who did well in the other 5 events.

Take your pick.

I pick B.
 
You might consider this post just made by Grossano on another topic:

Originally Posted by gsrossano
This is a federal law passed in the 1978 (full name now is Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act) that regulates NGBs in the U.S., and provides certain legal protections to athletes. Among other things it requires athletes have at least 20% of the voting power within an NGB, and governs the rights of athletes when being selected for World and Olympic teams. It basically says that selection to an Olympic team must follow the order of finish in the selection competition or the NGB better has a superb reason why not.

If order of finish is not followed the athletes kept off the team can sue the NGB to get on, and force compliance with order of finish. So if Sasha was put on the team without having competed, or placed too low to make the team, the girl affected would be able to sue to get on the team, and would almost certainly win her case -- since helping out a failed comeback attempt after a four year absence with no competition record other than Nationals would most likely not be viewed as a superb reason.

Basically the law says the NGBs can't screw the athletes when it comes to selecting the Olympic team.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I think this might also apply to Alissa - if she finished 1st or 2nd and they tried to bump her. Maybe Gossano will comment on that possibilty.

Interesting.

I'd hope USFS wouldn't be so short-sighted though to put someone on the team based solely on name recognition.

Anyway, I expect a WD announcement from the Cohen camp either the end of this year or early January. She really should not factor into anyone's Nats predictions at all.
 
Interesting.

I'd hope USFS wouldn't be so short-sighted though to put someone on the team based solely on name recognition.

Anyway, I expect a WD announcement from the Cohen camp either the end of this year or early January. She really should not factor into anyone's Nats predictions at all.

What this law means is that whoever finishes 1 and 2 at Natls will be the team short of some very good reasons to bump them.

I don't think coming in 4th at the GPF would be a reason that could withstand a legal challenge.
 
Like I posted in another thread-Nationals is NOT an Olympic Qualifier so this rule will fall short. The USFSA has since amended their selection process so that not all the weight lays on National results. I forget the initial reasoning, but I think it was so that USFSA could retain television rights of Nationals by declaring it NOT an Olympic Qualifier.
 
What this law means is that whoever finishes 1 and 2 at Natls will be the team short of some very good reasons to bump them.

I don't think coming in 4th at the GPF would be a reason that could withstand a legal challenge.

Well forget the legality...I think she'll have to finish top two AND/or place above all but one of the other "Contenders". But I mean, think about it- hypothetically, if 1st/2nd turned out to be Gilles/Liang or better yet, Liang/Bereswill, do you think they'd REALLY be sent to Olys over Flatt, Wagner and Czisny? :rofl: (Of course it won't happen, but I'm overdramatizing to illustrate a point)
 
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