Some scientific analysis of Mao's 3A | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Some scientific analysis of Mao's 3A

FlattFan said:
I notice people like to compare Mao's 3A with Evan's 3A. IMO, they are nothing alike. Evan's 3A looks like work. Every time he lands a 3A, I fear for his foot. It looks like he's in pain, especially in HD.
Mao's 3A is so light. It's spectacular every single time. :love:
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Mao and Evan are very different, but Mao and Oda are not. They are actually like the same size (I doubt Oda weighs much more than Mao), and Oda's 3a is much bigger and doesn't look like work like Evan's.

All the big male skaters have a 3a that looks like work, Evan probably weighs 2x as much as Mao so it makes sense that it would be harder.
 
FlattFan said:
I thought Mao has the fastest rotation for the top 10 ladies. Who can rotate faster than her? Miki doesn't look faster, even when she does quads.
Can you give an example of someone doing 6 or more rev per sec? That is just way too fast.
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Talking about both men and women together there. But most quads are faster than 6. For example, at SWP there was a senior man who landed 4T with a little over 0.6 seconds in the air and a bit over 6 rotations per second. Planning to measure the elite skaters in Spokane and Vancouver. We will see how they do.

Is Mao the fastest? I don't know. We will see what the measurements turn up. But say she is the fastest at 5 per second. I still don't consider that fast on an absolute scale. but that's just my subjective opinion. Others can draw the line for fast somewhere else. But, even in the lower levels it is common to have doubles done with 0.5 seconds in the air or a little less and 4+ rotations per second. So for me 4 per second I would not describe as fast. It is not even above average. (You and I can run 100 m in 20 sec, and you win the race. You are the fastest, but neither of us is fast in an absolute sense.)

I think the remarkable thing about the ladies who can do the 3A is that they can maintain the time in the air for that jump. It is pretty common for skaters who can do triples to have a double Axel with less time in the air than the tap jump triples or doubles. In general, edge jumps are not as high as tap jumps. And if the 2A is a guide, you might expect the time in the air for 3A to be lower than for the other triples. Carolina can get over 0.7 seconds in the air. She was doing it when I was at the rink a few days ago. Even hit 0.81 for one. Why can't she do 3A? she has as much time in the air as Mao. Maybe it is because the average lady cannot maintain the time in the air for the 3A and get the needed rotation rate while Mao and a few others can.

As the professor who started this all off said (in the abstract posted way above), the goal is to get height and also high initial angular momentum, but it is difficult to get both simultaneously. Is what makes Mao special the fact they she gets reasonable amounts of both on the 3A and few other ladies can? That is certainly the empirical conclusion.
 
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It is easily noticed that her jumping height is lowered considerably.

If you compare Mao's videos at junior and senior seasons, it is apparant that the height during jumps is much lower these days... I think her elastic efficiency some how degrades as she gets old
 
rossdale said:
If you compare Mao's videos at junior and senior seasons, it is apparant that the height during jumps is much lower these days... I think her elastic efficiency some how degrades as she gets old
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What's "elastic efficiency"? And how does it affect one's jumping skills?
 
rossdale said:
If you compare Mao's videos at junior and senior seasons, it is apparant that the height during jumps is much lower these days... I think her elastic efficiency some how degrades as she gets old
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The height of jumps didn't change much.
It looks lower these days compared to junior days because Mao is taller now.
Mao's jumps are still high.
 
gfskater said:
Maybe you have something here. I looked at several other videos for 2008/2009 last night and they are all higher than 10". I did not download and disect them as I did 2009 WTT but they look similar. Look at it this way. Her skate is 10" long and she is about 2-2.5 sktates off the ice. Maybe we could have a new measurement system "She jumepd 2.5 skates" :)

I created four slow motion videos of different triple axels on you tube. You can see that Harding and Ito are higher but not as tight in the air. Ito even has a wrap. Without that amazing height she would never make it around. Harding is almost as high as the boards. This is the point of the article which makes sense. People interpreting Mao’s jump height as 10 inches took away from the original point. You either need fast rotation or height. It seems that most skaters today use rotation. I often here Dick Button say. “Where’s the jump in that jump!” but not for Mao. I think he even comment, this year, "now that is a jump" for Mao.

I put the videos into a playlist here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/GoFigureSkating#grid/user/7341628836925595

Enjoy! They are all amazing!
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Thanks for the videos!:thumbsup:

My favorite video was posted several years ago on youtube ~ it showed all the triple axelers ~ loved it so much that I actually commented on it! :) If I find it I will make sure to post the link.

This is why Mao Asada is so very very special in my eyes....she combines e v e r y generation of triple axel figure skaters....she's a combination of both Midori Ito & Tonya Harding. She defies the general consensus that one needed to be built like a little linebacker or have bowed legs or be short & stocky in able to complete the jump. No, Mao Asada proved the impossible possible! A ballerina can jump like that!!!!! BRAVO, MAO-CHAN, BRAVO!:bow::clap::bow::clap:
 
Nadine said:
Thanks for the videos!:thumbsup:

My favorite video was posted several years ago on youtube ~ it showed all the triple axelers ~ loved it so much that I actually commented on it! :) If I find it I will make sure to post the link.
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I have seen that one. That is the one Mr Luddington told us about when he told my daughter to emulate Mao. She gets low before takeoff, beds her free leg, get some height, and is tight as can be in the air. Best air position of any lady's 3a in the set. He has had competitors in just about every worlds form mid 1960s to today. I think that gives him some credibility.

Anyway, Did you watch Mao at Nationals? The whole program was beautiful. I notice she changed the second 3A to a 2A. That is the one she was having trouble with and I don't believe any other female has done two 3As in one program. What a great footwork seq,

It is going to be tough for the US ladies who are scorig in the 150s-170s to compete with Mao and Kim who are scoring in the 180s-200s.
 
gfskater said:
Anyway, Did you watch Mao at Nationals? The whole program was beautiful. I notice she changed the second 3A to a 2A. That is the one she was having trouble with and I don't believe any other female has done two 3As in one program. What a great footwork seq,

It is going to be tough for the US ladies who are scorig in the 150s-170s to compete with Mao and Kim who are scoring in the 180s-200s.
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I'm disappointed by her second 3a -> 2a. Mao herself said she doesn't water down her jumps because they put more pressure on her on the next outing.
 
silverlake22 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEnuEOh5oPk

Mao definitely rotates fast, her 3a takes the same amount of time as Yuna's 2a!
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Oh, you mean Yuna rotates really slow?:)

More seriously, I don't know if one should compare doubles to triples. Wouldn't it make more sense to ask how fast does Mao rotate her triples compared to how fast another skater rotates her triples? Or even more specific, how fast do skaters compare for a specific jump, like comparing 3Lz or 3F for several skaters.

Or compare the 3A for the five (?) ladies who have landed one. Which of those is in the air longest?
 
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gsrossano said:
Oh, you mean Yuna rotates really slow?:)
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No I mean Yuna's 2a is much higher, bigger, and covers more ice :agree: . Plus I kind of like the slower rotation, Yuna jumps like a guy but looks like a pretty princess while she does it. She has it all! ;)
 
Let's be scientific

silverlake22 said:
No I mean Yuna's 2a is much higher, bigger, and covers more ice :agree: . Plus I kind of like the slower rotation, Yuna jumps like a guy but looks like a pretty princess while she does it. She has it all! ;)
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I agree that Yu Na has it all but let’s not make statements that are not based on facts.

Since the title of this thread includes the world scientific, I thought I would download Yu Na Kim's LP from 2009 and apply the same physics. For her double Axel she was in the air for 0.51 sec. This means she is about 2/3 the height of Mao's triple.

For Yu Na's first triple she was in the air for 0.63 still not as high as Mao.

A less scientific observation is that Mao's 2009 JP Nationals triple axel has almost twice the distance across the ice as Yu Na's triple (oops I meant to say double) axel. Go and look at the video.
 
gsrossano said:
Wouldn't it make more sense to ask how fast does Mao rotate her triples compared to how fast another skater rotates her triples?
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Yes I agree, Yu Na was not trying to do a triple so she did not try to rotate as fast. This does not mean she cannot.

You are correct compare triples to triples, apples to apples, toe jumps to toe jumps, edge jumps to edge jumps....
 
gfskater said:
Yes I agree, Yu Na was not trying to do a triple so she did not try to rotate as fast. This does not mean she cannot.

You are correct compare triples to triples, apples to apples, toe jumps to toe jumps, edge jumps to edge jumps....
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I think if Yuna could do a triple axel, she would be doing them in competition. She might be a little TOO good then :love:
 
I read somewhere that Yuna wanted to perfect the 3A when she first started to train with Orser but he told her that they shouldn't focus on doing the hardest jumps, but perfecting her overall skating quality. Smart move :agree:
I think Yuna came to dominate because of her remarkable consistency. She sticks to the strategy that works best for her, instead of attempting risks. In this respect, she resembles Michelle Kwan.
 
miki88 said:
I read somewhere that Yuna wanted to perfect the 3A when she first started to train with Orser but he told her that they shouldn't focus on doing the hardest jumps, but perfecting her overall skating quality. Smart move :agree:
I think Yuna came to dominate because of her remarkable consistency. She sticks to the strategy that works best for her, instead of attempting risks. In this respect, she resembles Michelle Kwan.
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True, but a 3lz-3t and 2a-3t are "risky" combinations for a lot of other skaters. She's just so good that these are steady combinations for her.
 
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