Lysacek's triple Axel

[Mathman]

They are rotating on the vertical axis, not doing back flips!

Now that's an interesting question, too. I always figured that Joe Sabovcik was the tallest of the guys who can do a backflip, and he has a beaut. He is he only man who can do it in full lay-out position. But I just looked it up and he is only 174 cm (5' 8.5"), about average for male singles skaters.

Michael Weiss is 5'8". Scott Hamilton and Surya Bonaly are quite a bit shorter. Surya is the only skater who can land a backflip on one foot, on an edge. She also had a backflip/triple Salchow combination , reduced to BF/2S in later years.

 

[janetfan]

The longer you are the more difficult it is to keep everything perfectly aligned in the air. It would also be fair to say that the shorter you are, if you do go off axis it is likely to affect the jump less than if you are taller, and also the shorter skater is more likely to be able to save a jump that goes slightly off axis.


Ant

I am not sure about any of this but one thing I notice - a taller skater making a mistake - whether it is going off axis or losing a little balance / two footing a landing seems to be much more noticable.

Carolina comes to mind and I could be wrong but it feels like her mistakes are much more noticable than shorter girls. I have seen Yuna and Mao have shaky landings as well as Irina and Michelle. But they typically seem to correct it quicker and it is not always as obvious.

When Carolina bobbles a landing it is hard to miss. When her air position is off it seems to effect her landing more than others. Or maybe that is just Carolina showing subpar technique and not related to her height?

I think it would be true to an extent about Evan and Oda. I have seen both of them step out of a jump landing - but with Evan it seems much more noticable.

I think if Evan is questioned about his 3A pre-rotation - just imagine if his entry was like Oda's - which has the strangest prep/entry I have seen. If Evan did all that double clutching with his free leg it would look much worse than what Oda is doing.

 

[adoreyuna]

I'm feeling a little dense this morning (not enough coffee yet )

Can someone please explain why tall skaters have more trouble with rotating jumps? I can see why a ....er, wider skater would have more trouble rotating. But what's the difference between being a tall, thin jumper and a short, thin jumper, as long as they can get the jump height? They are rotating on the vertical axis, not doing back flips!

Off to find that coffee......

That question is not simple, actually we need physics.
If you really want to understand it, these Articles can help you.

Laws, K.L., and Petrie, C., "Momentum Transfer in Dance Movement-Vertical Jumps: A Research Update," Medical Problems of Performing Artists, 14, 3; September, 1999, pp 138-140.

Laws, K.L., "Momentum Transfer in Dance Movement," Medical Problems of Performing Artists, 13, 4; December, 1998, pp 136-145.

Laws, K.L., "The Mechanics of Turns in Dance" - Essay in Fundamentals of Physics, 4th Ed., Halliday, Resnick, and Walker; Wiley (January, 1993).

Without regard to Physics and Mathematics, in the article "The Mechanics of Turns in Dance", a 15% taller skater(ballerina) than a shot skater(ballerina) needs 2 times power(torque) to get same revolution velocity.

 

[seniorita]

If two skaters have same angle off from the ideal axis on the air(same mistake), the longest the distance from the center (taller skaters) the biggest the arc created between them and the ideal place. Thats why shorter skaters can save more easily, they need less distance and less force to get their body back at the correct axis.
I m not sure I make sense and if english is fine here.

 

[janetfan]

If two skaters have same angle off from the ideal axis on the air(same mistake), the longest the distance from the center (taller skaters) the biggest the arc created between them and the ideal place. Thats why shorter skaters can save more easily, they need less distance and less force to get their body back at the correct axis.
I m not sure I make sense and if english is fine here.

Your English is very good and your explanation makes sense to me.

I wonder - some posters here are gymnasts, or big fans of gymnastics.
Is it also more common to see that the majority of world class gymnasts are not typically so tall? Have there been any male gymnasts as tall or taller than Evan that have won alot of international medals?

I think Khorkina was taller than most of the lady gymnsasts - but how tall was she? Maybe Carolina's height - or was she shorter and just looked tall because the other girls tend to be short?

 

[Mathman]

That question is not simple, actually we need physics.
If you really want to understand it, these Articles can help you.

Laws, K.L., and Petrie, C., "Momentum Transfer in Dance Movement-Vertical Jumps: A Research Update," Medical Problems of Performing Artists, 14, 3; September, 1999, pp 138-140.

Laws, K.L., "Momentum Transfer in Dance Movement," Medical Problems of Performing Artists, 13, 4; December, 1998, pp 136-145.

Laws, K.L., "The Mechanics of Turns in Dance" - Essay in Fundamentals of Physics, 4th Ed., Halliday, Resnick, and Walker; Wiley (January, 1993).

Without regard to Physics and Mathematics, in the article "The Mechanics of Turns in Dance", a 15% taller skater(ballerina) than a shot skater(ballerina) needs 2 times power(torque) to get same revolution velocity.

I will check that out! Thank you!

With respect to physics, I think the complication is this. We have been pretending that a skater is a rigid cylinder. The cylindrical shape is not too far off, but the human body is not rigid. It must be very complicated indeed, the process whereby the pick, the lift in the legs, and the movements of the arms and upper body are translated into angular momentum.

Hsuhs may have a good point about how nerves and muscles coordinate all this.

 

[janetfan]

I will check that out! Thank you!

With respect to physics, I think the complication is this. We have been pretending that a skater is a rigid cylinder. The cylindrical shape is not too far off, but the human body is not rigid. It must be very complicated indeed, the process whereby the pick, the lift in the legs, and the movements of the arms and upper body are translated into angular momentum.

Hsuhs may have a good point about how nerves and muscles coordinate all this.

Tim Goebel was accused of being pretty "rigid" at times :yes:
Was that the secret to his big quad jumps

 

[antmanb]

If two skaters have same angle off from the ideal axis on the air(same mistake), the longest the distance from the center (taller skaters) the biggest the arc created between them and the ideal place. Thats why shorter skaters can save more easily, they need less distance and less force to get their body back at the correct axis.
I m not sure I make sense and if english is fine here.

That's the explanation I was thinking of and your english was great seniorita!

I will check that out! Thank you!

With respect to physics, I think the complication is this. We have been pretending that a skater is a rigid cylinder. The cylindrical shape is not too far off, but the human body is not rigid. It must be very complicated indeed, the process whereby the pick, the lift in the legs, and the movements of the arms and upper body are translated into angular momentum.

Which is why you need an extremely strong core in skating because the more rigid your body is doing the elements the better they look/the easier they are to complete. Take a simple upright spin - in order to spin and stay centred your shoulders need to be over your hips which need to be over your knee which needs to be over your ankle and your core must be rigid to keep you in the right place and spinning centred. Same in the jumps - just you're spinning off the ice not on!

Hsuhs may have a good point about how nerves and muscles coordinate all this.

There's something about fast twictch muscle fibres required to get that explosive jumping action, and those can be trained in a number of different ways, but that has always been about getting greater height in the jump.

Ant

 

[gkelly]

Now that's an interesting question, too. I always figured that Joe Sabovcik was the tallest of the guys who can do a backflip, and he has a beaut. He is he only man who can do it in full lay-out position. But I just looked it up and he is only 174 cm (5' 8.5"), about average for male singles skaters.

Actually, that's not true. Robin Cousins, who has already been mentioned in this thread and is about 6', could do it. See at 2:14 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a7sSuPpmcc

Cousins was also reportedly attempting triple axels in practice in the late 1970s, about the same time that the first one was officially landed in competition (Vern Taylor 1978), but I don't believe he ever tried it in competition nor do I know if he ever landed it cleanly in practice.

Laurent Tobel is probably the tallest skater I've ever seen land a triple axel. I think he's about 6'4".

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This is one of ISU RULEs about cheated jumps.
Cheated take off A clear forward (backward for Aoxel type jump) take-off will bne considered as a cheated jump.
The toe-loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The Technical
Panel may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and
downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequuences

I'm not against rules, and I believe the minus GoEs could take care of any infraction.

I hope the Tech Specialist not only has replay but also slow motion. Those toe loops in combo go so fast, who could justify their correct takeoff?

 

[SkatingAnalyst]

I'm not against rules, and I believe the minus GoEs could take care of any infraction.

I hope the Tech Specialist not only has replay but also slow motion. Those toe loops in combo go so fast, who could justify their correct takeoff?

Problems with using just minus GOEs are... cheated jumps are deceivingly
look easy to many un-trained eyes... and can be given huge plus GOEs....
when compare to well executed, fully-rotated jumps.

Well trained eyes can definately identify... cheated take-off.

It is crucial...judges and specialists must be trained well to make fair decisions.

 

[gkelly]

I hope the Tech Specialist not only has replay but also slow motion. Those toe loops in combo go so fast, who could justify their correct takeoff?

According to the tech panel guidelines, "The Technical Panel may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)."

So if they're not sure in real time, they give the skater the benefit of the doubt. But they do watch a replay before downgrading.

 

[Jaana]

Since there have not been that many tall singles skaters over the years one has to wonder if triple and quad jumps are more difficult for taller skaters?

In men´s discipline there has been very few really tall skaters like Lysacek. Robin Cousins was and he did not have a triple axel. I have understood from our commentators years ago, that the jumping is more difficult for tall skaters. Lysacek is an exception: He is tall and in spite of it a very consistent jumper.

Tall skaters usually are pairs skaters or ice dancers, as we surely have noticed, LOL.

 

[sk8rdad]

In men´s discipline there has been very few really tall skaters like Lysacek. Robin Cousins was and he did not have a triple axel. I have understood from our commentators years ago, that the jumping is more difficult for tall skaters. Lysacek is an exception: He is tall and in spite of it a very consistent jumper.

Tall skaters usually are pairs skaters or ice dancers, as we surely have noticed, LOL.

Yes they are more difficult. Tall skaters must be more precise vertically than shorter skaters. Think of two tops spinning, one taller than the other, if the both start to wobble the taller one will go further off axis much faster than the short one. Also pulling in longer limbs requires more strength due to the centripital force generated by rotation. When a tall jumper does master the big jumps they usually look really impressive due to the amount of height and distance they cover.

 

[jcoates]

Your English is very good and your explanation makes sense to me.

I wonder - some posters here are gymnasts, or big fans of gymnastics.
Is it also more common to see that the majority of world class gymnasts are not typically so tall? Have there been any male gymnasts as tall or taller than Evan that have won alot of international medals?

I think Khorkina was taller than most of the lady gymnsasts - but how tall was she? Maybe Carolina's height - or was she shorter and just looked tall because the other girls tend to be short?

There have been some tall-ish male gymnasts (usually Americans) but they tend to excel most in rings and high bar, occasionally vaulting. Floor ex, pommel horse and parallel bars are usually not their specialty. That's why all-around champs tend to be short little tug boats who are are very flexible.

Khorkina, while long limbed was about 5'5". She was exceptionally talented, but did not always do the ultra spectacular spinning and twisting moves her shorter competitors did. She made use of her long limbs to create a balletic image on the floor and also made use of the old gymnastics rules that allowed more flexibility in how an athlete could earn a high score. Their version of CoP has similarly changed the criteria for how points can be gained. Aside from Liukin, I highly doubt that someone of her body type could succeed easily in the current system.

Tim Goebel was accused of being pretty "rigid" at times :yes:
Was that the secret to his big quad jumps

While Tim did appear tall on camera, he was only about 5'7". Similarly, Peggy Flemming looked tall on TV, but is only 5'3".

Height not only plays a role in rotation and maintaining air position, but also on landings. Getting those long limbs into the right position to check the rotation and control the landing is harder because they have a longer distance from the core to travel. There is also the added strain placed on the joints absorbing the force (ankle, knee, hip and back) because they are spaced further apart. Think if the joints their spacing relative to each other like spring mechanisms. The tighter the coils, the better shock absorbtion they provide. That's why short skaters tend to make the most reliably powerful jumpers (from Button to Stojko). Of course there are always exceptions, but this rule does tend to apply, especially to men because they tend to have more overall muscle mass. Women might need to be a bit lighter relative to their frames unless they have exceptional muscle mass distribution like Ito or Bonaly.

If you look at any sport that requires rotation in the air (skating, gymnastics, diving, even extreme board sports) the athletes are rarely tall because the same principles apply.

Conversely ice dance has historically valued long limbed skaters until CoP. Now with the increased technical demands (especially lifts), shorter teams or ones with great height differences are having more success. This may be one reason why Shabalin is having knee issues. I think he is around Evan's height as well but with a far bulkier build and the torque he's endured on those joints is compounded by his height and muscle mass.

Cousins also had knee issues. That's why he stopped doing triples during his pro career and stopped skating altogether eventually. Meanwhile, a much shorter Boitano can still do every triple in his aresenal except the axel.

 

[ae9177]

Without regard to Physics and Mathematics, in the article "The Mechanics of Turns in Dance", a 15% taller skater(ballerina) than a shot skater(ballerina) needs 2 times power(torque) to get same revolution velocity.

Wow, thanks for the information!

I think major disadvantage of tall skaters is the higher center of gravity, which makes it harder to control their body position in air. In addition, they obviously need more power to reach the same air time comparing to shorter skaters with lower center of gravity and lighter weight.

Evan IS extraordinarily TALL as a skater. As far as I can remember, there're very few top tier single skaters who's taller than 6'. As Jaana pointed out, Robin Cousins (6'1") is probably the closest to Evan's height, but he doesn't have 3A. So considering his special body build, his jump consistency is pretty impressive.

I read somewhere before that Frank changed the 3A take off technique for Evan in 2005, because he was suffering sever hip injuries (he broke one hip and had a stress fracture on the other side). The skid take off seems to start from that time, not sure if it's helpful to reduce stress to the hip.

But he made significant improvement on his 3A in the past year, the jump is getting bigger, rotation is getting faster and the landing is more secure. :yes: The one he did at GPF SP was one of the best 3A I've see from him.

 

[Hsuhs]

Another tall skater with jump issues is Jamal Othman of Switzerland. His isu bio says 186 cm. (he might be even taller than that, seen him off the ice a couple of times, and I'm tall).

But he's so well-built (the best of all current men, IMO) and handsome:

http://hsuhs.gallery.ru/watch?ph=dzM-b01Xl

he really should consider modelling, IMO.

 

[Hsuhs]

Thankyou for the update. I hope ISU considers your opinion and gives this skater top scores- NOT....

Please - tell us this is a good skater and not some ridiculous fetish OK?

Is it possible I misunderstood your post, or.... you've never heard of Jamal? "Tell us" - who?

 

[seniorita]

But he's so well-built (the best of all current men, IMO) and handsome:

http://hsuhs.gallery.ru/watch?ph=dzM-b01Xl

he really should consider modelling, IMO.

Wow, Othman has grown up a lot, Mathman had him in his tall list some days agoNice Pic!

 

[Hsuhs]

Wow, Othman has grown up a lot, Mathman had him in his tall list some days agoNice Pic!

Thanks! But that's an old pic, 2007 or 2008. The latest I've got were these:
http://hsuhs.gallery.ru/watch?a=dzM-b6vj

It is true - despite reading every review of the Olympic season I am not familiar with your "boyfriend" skater.....please tell me more about him.

Plz feel free to google or youtube, if you wish.