please everyone, pre-rotation doesn't exists on axels! It's just how the jump is done....just try to find any skaters doing an axel jump without ''swivelling'' on his toe picks before getting into the air...That is just the technic of the jump! That's how every coaches teach their skaters to do an axel!
Some scientific analysis of Mao's 3A
- Thread starter Bennett
- Start date
Thanks for clearing that up.
I have looked at so many axels and could not find any skater not swiveling. I even saw it in the ice images someone posted above. I have been calling it 1/4 pre rotation because many people keep posting on my you tube site that Mao is taking off backwards or pre rotated 180 deg. That is why I slowed down the videos to show she is not. I don't know where they are coming up with this Mao only does 2.75 rotations bit.
Thanks for the explanation. Hm... from the video I've checked, her torso is side way along with right leg, and her left blade is being turned a bit more, which made me think she's pre-rotates close to 3/8 turn on the blade, and 1/4 turn on the body.
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They look like drawings. Someone posted this on a thread about Evan's 3A. I googled but could not find anything from ISU. It would be nice to see the original explanation that came with the picture.
While #1 might seem to be ideal for an Axel it is #2 that is the best way to acheive a consistent Axel. What this is showing is the foot position it does not take into account the hip position which at this point should still be square to the jump curve. The slow mo of Mao does show that her hips have started rotating into the circle before she leaves the ice by about 1/4 turn, her free leg swings quite wide as well. I wouldn't call this particularly good technique as the free leg should drive through closer to the takeoff leg as you step up into the jump. I will admit it seems to work but then again Mao is that consistent with the 3A.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
This is all making my head spin. Why was Mao's 3a DGed at Japanese Nats if there was no cheat on the landing? Can they give a UR call for pre-rotation?
Where can I find the results of Japanese Nationals with marks (in english)
I think it would have been better with higher qaulity video.
Try this one. Not sure this link will work.. let me try this anyway.
3A
If you adjust your IE size, the video size will be adjusted as well
While I'm at it, here're the others as well.
3F-2Lo
3F-2Lo-2Lo
I'm not sure I'm qualified to say anything about this so you guys decide.
BTW, for Yuna's preroation, here's her 2A:
Yuna 2A
No matter how many rotations you have in the air, you have to jump forward in A.
Here's my favorite 3A:
The 3A
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That sounds pretty ridiculous to me. I mean whoever said that. What do they exactly mean by it? Believe it or not, Yuna often does 2A-2T on the ground with sneakers on.
As far as Mao's 3A is concerned,
She does pre-rotate more than a 1/4 turn but less than 1/2. I say about 3/8 which is acceptable to most judges.
The air time is considerably shorter compare to other female skaters who had attempted a 3A due to her habbit of leaning backward when she takes off. she overcomes this with faster revolution.
She has good days and bad days. sometimes under-rotates them, sometimes does not.
:agree:
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- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
Well, you know, I did once write a wryly polite comment asking if Yuna's double-axel could be considered a true double-axel, only because silverlake was suggesting that Yuna's double axel was better than Mao's, which I thought was ridiculous and also because I think she can be overbearing in terms of insisting that Yuna is the best, unbeatable skater, perfect, blah, blah. She was doing this on a thread that was about Mao, and I thought that was rude.
Besides, given all the discussion that had occured regarding the flip/lutz technique and how some people's edge jumps are 'true' or not, I felt it was time for some discussion on what can be considered a good axel technique and not, and if you're utilizing 'bot' language, any technique that is even mediocre can be labeled 'not true'.
Of course Yuna does a 'true' double axel in so far as the judges recognizes it, just as Mao can do a 'true' flip/lutz, loop/salchow jump in so far as she has done them in competition. I do believe that Yuna's technique on her axel is not that good and could be improved, and I do believe that Mao's technique is superior. Hey, Mao's had her triple axels ratified more than once and with plus GOEs. That should be enough to warrant the asssumption that Mao's technique on her axel jump is better than Yuna's. The only way you're going to convince me otherwise is if Yuna does a triple axel in competition.
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what a bad excuse.
Why is it bad to tell the truth and admit you made a mistake???
As far as 2A is concerned, I believe Mao does TRUE 2A as well as Yuna.
They just do in different style. Mao hops high while Yuna throws herself in the air using the speed.
These are great!
Does anyone know how many female skaters have attempted 3A in competition and how many of these are higher than Mao.
Here are the ladies I know about and my unscientific analysis.
Tiffany Chin (about the same)
Tonya Harding (Higher)
Midori Ito (Higher)
Kimmie Meisner (about the same)
Mao Asada (the same)
Yukari Nakano (about the same, maybe lower)
Melissa Bulanhagui (lower and under rotated but attemted
)Is that it??? There must be more.
I notice the two the jump really high have massive thigh and calf muscles.
So are there only three currently competing senior ladies attemting this jump? Is Kimmie still competing? If not that means two. (Mellissa is on Junior circuit)
How did you decide there was no cheat? If you are using YouTube postings then you cannot tell for sure. The quality of posts on YouTube is nowhere near good enough for definitive statements. The one I commented on was as at 25% speed from the original footage. I have also look at a few others and although again on YouTube quality posts it is difficult to be sure it appears that she does pre-roatate.
I don't now if the rules allow the technical panel to include pre-rotation in the UR call or not. In general I would humble suggest that the Tech Specialists have the best view and training to determine this so we should probably stop quibbling over it.
I saw that the rules, actually "ISU First Aid for Technical Specialists" that they could mark down for cheated take off if:
The take off is clearly forward (clearly backward for axel) and the viedeo may only be reviewed at normal speed.
Did Chin ever attempt it in competition? Or are you going off a practice video. I know there are practice videos of Kristi Yamaguchi falling on it as well, surely underrotated.
Tonya Harding (Higher)
Midori Ito (Higher)
Kimmie Meisner (about the same)
Mao Asada (the same)
Yukari Nakano (about the same, maybe lower)
Melissa Bulanhagui (lower and under rotated but attemted
Ludmila Nelidina at 2002? Skate America -- same time Nakano first landed it internationally.
Others I know of who attempted but weren't successful include
Yoshie Onda -- stood up on it, cheated, at least once at one of the European fall competitions ca. 2001 or 2002
Lisa Sargent at Canadian Nationals at least once in the early 1990s
Angela Derochie in the late 90s, possibly at Canadian events and I know she tried in the short program at I think 1998 Cup of Russia -- underrotated and fell, and judging from her scores it seemed at least some of the judges counted it as a failed double axel which then gave her no credit for her successful double axel later in the program
Meissner hasn't officially retired but she has been injured and isn't competing this season. We might see her in competition again, but I don't think we'll see her attempt 3A again.
Bulanhagui competes as a senior within the US and is now in her last year of junior eligibility internationally.
