NYT article "Skate Scoring Has Little for Artistry"

[ImaginaryPogue]

Sure she does. International success (read, podiums at Worlds and/or Olympics) won't come without it.

 

[Layfan]

1. Mirai beat Rachael in terms of her spirals and spins.

2. Nope, the system isn't confused. That's the beauty of it. It gives a skater who lacks in one area to make up for it in other ones.

Using my example: Lepisto isn't the strongest jumper. She'll consistently score worse than many skaters in that department because she lacks breadth. However, she can make up for it thanks to her amazing basic skills, strong musicality and gorgeous spins/spirals. That's a good thing for those who want variety in the sport, right?

Another example: Chan doesn't have a quad, so compared to many of the top guys, he'll suffer. The upside for him is that what he does have he does thrillingly well, so he can earn good GOE's. His PCS will suffer a little from the lack of the quad, though, so he needs those GOEs (he can earn 2 full points on step sequences, for example, and that's the difference between a triple axel and a quad).

So, here comes Flatt: She's a solid jumper. She's not Kim, Rochette or even Ando in that department, but she took the time to improve and she has. So she's been rewarded for that. What she isn't is a beautiful spinner/spiraler. But she makes up for it because she's still able to earn points for the difficulty of spins/spirals.

The big problem that people seem to be focusing on is two fold.

a) Nagasu's UR is penalized much more heavily than Flatt's problems. Now, my impression is that jump problems are always more penalized than anything else (see Lucinda Ruh vs Tatianna Malinina). And it seems that the general opinion here is that UR's are too heavily punished.

b) Quality takes a backseat to difficulty.

Am I wrong?

The problem for me is not that URs are too heavily penalized. Now that I know about URs I actually like that about CoP. Even if I can't see it from my living room the idea of cheated jumps bugs me. The problem for me is that I don't think Rachael was penalized enough for her flaws. Sure, Mirai beat her in spins and spirals (geez, I hope so) but I don't understand how Rachael gets the relatively high marks she did for her spins. I also don't understand how Rachael beats Mirai in presentation and interpretation.

 

[DesertRoad]

Great. So we've come to an era where the final ranking in skating is determined by protractors and compasses, measurements that are equally opaque to people in the arena and the audience at home. Where the difference in a couple of degrees can make a massive difference in the score, all else be damned. I guess skating has returned to its roots, to the era of school figures. It's happened before. It will happen again.

But is that kind of pedantic precision what most people want to see? People said hell to the no back then, and they're saying it now. The powers that be were wise enough to change the sport back then, let's hope they are now.

 

[bekalc]

) Quality takes a backseat to difficulty

I actually disagree here. I think in someways difficulty takes a back seat to quality. I feel at times guys who do average but decent quads and triple axels don't get rewarded enough against guys who do great triple lutzs and flips but no triple axels and quads...

 

[miki88]

The big problem that people seem to be focusing on is two fold.

a) Nagasu's UR is penalized much more heavily than Flatt's problems. Now, my impression is that jump problems are always more penalized than anything else (see Lucinda Ruh vs Tatianna Malinina). And it seems that the general opinion here is that UR's are too heavily punished.

b) Quality takes a backseat to difficulty.

Am I wrong?

The problem in the judging lies in PCS, which was almost tied between the two. Nagasu's overall skating quality was so much better than Flatt, so it's just not right. She should get penalized for her URs in the TES, but why is she not rewarded enough in her PCS? I think the CoP should work on a fairer guidelines for their PCS scores, because the score is almost like a reputation score now. If Mirai had the same reputation as a skater like Yuna or Mao, then she definitely would have gotten higher PCS. But I think it's because the reputation between Mirai and Flatt are about the same, so one does not get an edge over the other.

 

[Layfan]

Sure she does. International success (read, podiums at Worlds and/or Olympics) won't come without it.

Yeah, there's that.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Desert Rose, what do you believe should happen then? And I don't mean theoretically, I mean practically.

This idea that proper technique should be dismissed because the general public doesn't understand is in an anathema to me. Catering to the general public who believe everything should be effortless doesn't jibe with my worldview. I understand that means the sport is gonna be less popular, but it'll be more of a sport, and I value that. I don't want competitive, high level figure skating to turn into American Idol.

bekalc, can you give me a specific example - because no quad/no triple axel is pretty much dooming a male figure skating, isn't it? That stated, I have heard that difficulty takes a backseat to quality. I've also heard that quality takes a backseat to difficulty.

 

[Layfan]

The problem in the judging lies in PCS, which was almost tied between the two. Nagasu's overall skating quality was so much better than Flatt, so it's just not right. She should get penalized for her URs in the TES, but why is she not rewarded enough in her PCS? I think the CoP should work on a fairer guidelines for their PCS scores, because the score is almost like a reputation score now. If Mirai had the same reputation as a skater like Yuna or Mao, then she definitely would have gotten higher PCS. But I think it's because the reputation between Mirai and Flatt are about the same, so one does not get an edge over the other.

OR maybe it's because Flatt has had more success on the international stage than Mirai that the judges were generous in their PCS. Who knows. I don't think international judges will be generous to Rachael on PCS. But they certainly won't overlook Mirai's URs either. I think Mirai and Rachael both have the same shot at a medal in Vancouver - a very off chance and they need several others to mess up. I see Mirai fixing her UR problems more than Rachael ever fixing her artistry problems. I don't think either will happen in time for Vancouver. But maybe next year for Mirai.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

FWIW, I see Nagasu having more success on the international circuit post Vancouver than Flatt.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

One more question I wanna throw out there

Is it inappropriate application of COP (judges/techs making wrong calls, too strict, etc) that's bugging people or COP (practice and execution) itself? Both can be fixed, but I don't know what bugs people right now - complaints seem a little scattered.

 

[DesertRoad]

Why argue to the absurd? Saying that a couple of difference in degrees of jump landings shouldn't be a 20 point difference is a long, long way from saying that technical difficulty and precision should be thrown out the window. Reducing the sport to such quantum details, insisting that they make the difference between great and completely unacceptable technique, now that's the absurdity.

 

[Layfan]

FWIW, I see Nagasu having more success on the international circuit post Vancouver than Flatt.

We'll see. Flatt had more success than Mirai in the GP series and that was because of Mirai's URs. So URs ARE a serious problem for Mirai. On the other hand, Mirai never performed her Carmen piece during GP series the way she did at nationals. If she does it again at the Olympics it'll be interesting to see what the judges do.

The best thing Flatt and Nagasu have going for them is that they will be under little pressure at the Olympics. Just the jitters of it being the Olympics. But not much is expected of them. We've already seen how composed and great they were at their most pressure-packed competition. So I have great hopes that they will deliver in Vancouver, when I don't think they will have nearly the same amount of pressure as at nationals.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Why argue to the absurd? Saying that a couple of difference in degrees of jump landings shouldn't be a 20 point difference is a long, long way from saying that technical difficulty and precision should be thrown out the window. Reducing the sport to such quantum details, insisting that they make the difference between great and completely unacceptable technique, now that's the absurdity.

Why is a 12 point difference a 20 point difference? Or is pointing out an eight point difference a "quantum detail?"

As catty as that was, I'm genuinely curious about what you think here. What's the compromise?

 

[bekalc]

Why argue to the absurd? Saying that a couple of difference in degrees of jump landings shouldn't be a 20 point difference is a long, long way from saying that technical difficulty and precision should be thrown out the window. Reducing the sport to such quantum details, insisting that they make the difference between great and completely unacceptable technique, now that's the absurdity

But quantam details have to be made.. The rules state that the skaters can be within a 1/4 turn. That's hardly a ridiculous requirement. Is it ridiculous that in basketball someone can hit the rim and have the ball bounce in and out and get no points. Or in football that stepping a smidge out of line can get someone a down/or lose the ball completely.

I'm sorry this is a sport and there is a line somewhere that has to be drawn for a jump to be credited.

 

[DesertRoad]

Why is a 12 point difference a 20 point difference? Or is pointing out an eight point difference a "quantum detail?"

As catty as that was, I'm genuinely curious about what you think here. What's the compromise?

Well, you're the master of trivia here. OK, now that was actually catty.

I already proposed a fix in a post above. Unless a skater lands forward, it's not under rotated. Just like in the current rules, a takeoff isn't cheated unless the skater is facing the wrong direction (none of this more or less than 90° crap). And the base value shouldn't be lowered, just the GOE.

 

[Mathman]

One more question I wanna throw out there

Is it inappropriate application of COP (judges/techs making wrong calls, too strict, etc) that's bugging people or COP (practice and execution) itself? Both can be fixed, but I don't know what bugs people right now - complaints seem a little scattered.

For me, it is the CoP itself. Under any judging system (6.0 for instance) people will disagree with particular judgments and calls of the officials.

I think it would help if the penalties for errors were correlated more with whether they disrupt the flow of the program or not. A fall where the skater hops right up hardly breaking rhythm is not as bad as one where the skater ends up sprawled out on the ice. A wild-swinging free leg on a jump landing, with a couple of extra turns to save your balance, should be a worse error than an underrotation where the skater is able to swivel smoothly and control the landing.

 

[janetfan]

For me, it is the CoP itself. Under any judging system (6.0 for instance) people will disagree with particular judgments and calls of the officials.

I think it would help if the penalties for errors were correlated more with whether they disrupt the flow of the program or not. A fall where the skater hops right up hardly breaking rhythm is not as bad as one where the skater ends up sprawled out on the ice. A wild-swinging free leg on a jump landing, with a couple of extra turns to save your balance, should be a worse error than an underrotation where the skater is able to swivel smoothly and control the landing.

I absolutely agree and think a few rules of CoP regarding jumps make no sense at all.

 

[colleen o'neill]

I don't know what to say about the jump scoring...but isn't a wildly swinging free leg (e.g.) supposed to be reflected in the PCS mark ? And re: UR , are the skaters not allowed some leeway ..under 1/4 turn ?..Illumination please, for a non-skater.

I do think the CoP is better than the old 6.0 , but it ain't perfect.

I think the PCS mark still allows room for shennanigans , if the judges are so minded. ..which is why I don't like not knowing who gave what score. If the judges could be trusted to be utterly scrupulous, there would be no need for "random selection" of scores.

 

[bekalc]

For me, it is the CoP itself. Under any judging system (6.0 for instance) people will disagree with particular judgments and calls of the officials.

I think it would help if the penalties for errors were correlated more with whether they disrupt the flow of the program or not. A fall where the skater hops right up hardly breaking rhythm is not as bad as one where the skater ends up sprawled out on the ice. A wild-swinging free leg on a jump landing, with a couple of extra turns to save your balance, should be a worse error than an underrotation where the skater is able to swivel smoothly and control the landing.

Mathman its easier to land a cheated triple jump smoothly than a correct triple jump. I mean do you think Sarah Hughes situation was fair? Someone with yes cheated triple jumps who was of course landing them smoothly because they were cheated all the time. And of course she was landing them more than those who were actually doing the jumps correctly.

Its not just about the performance its also about the technical difficulty of a performance. a fully rotated triple jump is harder than an underrotated triple jump. That matters. Otherwise than we might as well say lets get rid of the distinction between a 3toe and a 3lutz? As long as the 3toe was landed cleanly it has the same effect as landing a shaky 3 lutz. Sorry nope. If this is going to be taken seriously and credibly as a sport than things like technical difficulty need to be factored into things period. I would though like to see cleaner performances without stepouts falls rewarded more in the PCS...

 

[DesertRoad]

I don't know what to say about the jump scoring...but isn't a wildly swinging free leg (e.g.) supposed to be reflected in the PCS mark ? And re: UR , are the skaters not allowed some leeway ..under 1/4 turn ?..Illumination please, for a non-skater.

A wildly swinging free leg may be reflected in some of the PCS marks. But it should be more accurately reflected in the GOE for that element. And as for under rotation, the leeway is exactly 1/4th of a turn, as determined by the tech specialist. If he deems that a skater landed a jump even 91° short, that gets an under rotation mark. And what does that do? Let's use Mirai as an example:

She landed a 3lutz in her LP. It looked fine to most of us. But the tech specialist deemed it somehow shy of the magical 90°. As a result, an element she would've gotten 6 points on is now worth 1.9 points. That's a loss of 4.1 points. On top of that, she gets a deduction on the GOE. She'd have to fall on her *** four times to lose those points otherwise. It's quite silly.