NYT article "Skate Scoring Has Little for Artistry"

[janetfan]

Exactly. Most of the former top skaters had already retired. Asada/Kim were the clear favorites. Yu-na did have a small period of time where she had to maybe work a bit for PCS. But she vaulted very quickly to the top and righfully so. Nagasu though has technical issues that make it impossible for her to do so right now.

Miki deserved to win - but I remember it was considered a bit of an upset as Mao and Yuna were the co-favorites

 

[miki88]

Ugh, I noticed that Yuna's name has come up several times in this thread, and I just wanted to point out that Yuna set her first world record without any "reputation" in her first senior debut at 2007 world championship. I completely agree with you that there should be some guide line between TES and PCS, but I don't see how Yuna is always the prime example of a skater who receives high PCS because of her reputation. She's actually one of the skaters who receives PCS lower than her TES.

As others have said, she was the 2006 GPF champion and definitely a favorite before the 2007 Worlds, so her name was pretty well known at that time. Not saying she doesn't deserves her PCS scores because she earned it, just like the other top ladies have earned theirs too. I am just trying to say that it is something to an extent influenced by prior sucess and number of titles a skater has to himself/herself. It is quite hard for a lesser known skater to get high PCS even if on that event, they really performed well and deserved it.

 

[figurejennah]

Huh? Yu-na was reigning Grand Prix Final Champion going into that World championships. She had already established herself as one of the people to watch.

As others have said, she was the 2006 GPF champion and definitely a favorite before the 2007 Worlds, so her name was pretty well known at that time. Not saying she doesn't deserves her PCS scores because she earned it, just like the other top ladies have earned theirs too. I am just trying to say that it is something to an extent influenced by prior sucess and number of titles a skater has to himself/herself. It is quite hard for a lesser known skater to get high PCS even if on that event, they really performed well and deserved it.

I understand that completely agree with you that Yuna was a highly anticipated figure star even before going into the 2007 world championship, but I don't think her reputation was higher than anyone else to give her a "high pcs" that everyone talks about. If Yuna's reputation and PCS scores are controversial, then we can say that practically any skater who had won any world championships or GPF or even Junior series receive high PCS due to their reputation. Mao did 3A in her jr years, Miki did quad and was a super star in Japan, Koster was euro champ for I don't even know how many times, Mirai and Zhang were Jr world champs, Joannie was also canadian national champion for several times, etc etc. All I am saying that whenever we mention about reputation, high PCS and inflated scores, Yuna's name is mentioned as the "prime example." That's all.

In other words, I am very sure that if Mirai continues to improve and fix her UR, I am sure she will reach where Yuna is now. Mirai is 16, and she already won US nationals and Jr world, so she probably has just about the same reputation as the 16 year old Yuna did at 2007 world championship.

 

[miki88]

I understand that completely agree with you that Yuna was a highly anticipated figure star even before going into the 2007 world championship, but I don't think her reputation was higher than anyone else to give her a "high pcs" that everyone talks about. If Yuna's reputation and PCS scores are controversial, then we can say that practically any skater who had won any world championships or GPF or even Junior series receive high PCS due to their reputation. Mao did 3A in her jr years, Miki did quad and was a super star in Japan, Koster was euro champ for I don't even know how many times, Mirai and Zhang were Jr world champs, Joannie was also canadian national champion for several times, etc etc. All I am saying that whenever we mention about reputation, high PCS and inflated scores, Yuna's name is mentioned as the "prime example." That's all.

In other words, I am very sure that if Mirai continues to improve and fix her UR, I am sure she will reach where Yuna is now. Mirai is 16, and she already won US nationals and Jr world, so she probably has just about the same reputation as the 16 year old Yuna did at 2007 world championship.

Yea, that's what I mean actually. If you look at all the current top contenders, they all get higher PCS than lesser known. In my original post, I mentioned Yuna and Mao, but I also think it applies to the Miki and Rochette. So it's not just for Yuna, so relax The junior level is a whole different world from seniors, so I don't think that is taken into account. Mirai has to prove herself on the senior level internationally to earn her reputation.

 

[Mathman]

If you look at all the current top contenders, they all get higher PCS than lesser known.

Do they get high scores because they are well known, or are they well known because they get high scores?

 

[janetfan]

Do they get high scores because they are well known, or are they well known because they get high scores?

Catch 22 aka "judges are human"

 

[miki88]

Do they get high scores because they are well known, or are they well known because they get high scores?

Hmm... good question. I think first, the up and coming skater wins a big event; defeating some tough rivals. The skater becomes well-known and if the skater continues to do well in subsequent events, their PCS start to increase at rapid pace. But the skater usually don't get record breaking scores when they just come onto the scene. I think this is the only aspect that has remained unchanged from 6.0 system.

 

[zartian]

That's not true. You can dictate to the audience how tough and difficult those triple jumps are. And you can dictate and explain to the audience that jumps are evaulated strictly for rotation edges because this is a technical sport and that its easier to do a cheated triple than it is to do a fully rotated triple jump.

The issue here is that the current comentators explained none of this and downplayed it too. And I seriously don't think that artistry is truly getting knocked down. Rachael has a hard time against skaters like Yu-na Kim even when Yu-na makes mistakes and Rachael-doesn't. Its just the issue here is that the US doesn't have a girl who is a strong technician and a strong artist. And I didn't hear anyone in the article saying Mirai's jumps were rotated they were just complaining about the rules.

However I suspect the skaters who follow the rules and worked hard at mastering fully rotated jumps are thankful that cheated jumps are no longer rewarded.

I totally agree! I don't know who you are but I appreciate for your rational, unbiased, knowledgeable comments!

Some people here tend to be overly impartial againt a certain (type of) skater because of their personal appetite. I should also admit that I prefer "artistic" skaters to "technical" ones. That's why I root for Alissa, Ashley, and Mirai, more than Rachel, Kimmie, etc. However, figure skating is a part of sports, not dance or ballet or, as someone says, a "beauty pageant". If Rachel had something (even if it's only technical side) over Mirai within a current scoring system and she deserved to win! She should not be punished for not being as pretty as her competitors.

I think we have something to think about what "artistic" means. Some people, IMHO, tend to equalize "artistry" to "beauty" in case of female skaters. Considering the opinions posted here about "artistic" skaters, I feel that many people tend to think a certain skater is "artistic" if she has beautiful body builds, that is, if she is slimmer (I mean, beautiful body line) and more flexible, she is considered as more artistic. I think that's one of the reasons why Joannie and Miki, for example, are often considered here as non-artistic (which I do not agree now). I used to think that way too. I know that's not always true. In Yuna's case, she is yet considered as artistic (isn't she?) even if she is not extraordinarily flexible ( I still know some folks here are nitpicking her flexibility and don't like her for that!) because she is musically expressive: but she has at least slim body. What if she was neither flexible nor slim (like Rachel)? Will she be as beautiful (therefore artistic) as now?

I've always been hoping there will be a psychological experiment what people consider as "artistic"

 

[Bennett]

I think we have something to think about what "artistic" means. Some people, IMHO, tend to equalize "artistry" to "beauty" in case of female skaters. Considering the opinions posted here about "artistic" skaters, I feel that many people tend to think a certain skater is "artistic" if she has beautiful body builds, that is, if she is slimmer (I mean, beautiful body line) and more flexible, she is considered as more artistic. I think that's one of the reasons why Joannie and Miki, for example, are often considered here as non-artistic (which I do not agree now). I used to think that way too. I know that's not always true. In Yuna's case, she is yet considered as artistic (isn't she?) even if she is not extraordinarily flexible ( I still know some folks here are nitpicking her flexibility and don't like her for that!) because she is musically expressive: but she has at least slim body. What if she was neither flexible nor slim (like Rachel)? Will she be as beautiful (therefore artistic) as now?

I've always been hoping there will be a psychological experiment what people consider as "artistic"

You have the point.

I think that Mirai's strengths include her great stretch and great posture. Her long legs, arms, and slim body give her further longer lines. Western dance definitely has a strong preference for these elements and you really can't get away with these.

I think that Rachael is disadvantaged in these elements. If she stretches more, she would get longer lines. Yet, perhaps you would be right in saying that it would not have the same effect as a skater who has longer limbs and a slimmer body.

Mao's former coach, Machiko Yamada, explicitly said that she was happy that the Asada sisters came, who had great lines with pretty faces and elegant skating styles whereas she tended to coach athletic ones. She is known for a warm, friendly personality with great love for her pupils and said these things smilingly and jokingly. So her remarks did not come across as harsh or offensive. But what she says does contain some harsh truth about this sport.

But skaters' bodies are like singers' voices. So you really can't get away with that.

That said, we see far more various body types among elite skaters than those of ballerinas. A friend of mine who seriously wanted to become a ballerina gave up because she couldn't get accepted by companies because of her body type (her legs not straight or long enough or something like that).

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Very astute points, zartian. I think this same mentality is one we see in men's figure skating, about who skates "masculine" vs who doesn't (see Stoijko's comments). We bring such narrow ideas of things like gender and artistry, and that undeniably influences our idea of who's "artistic" and who isn't.

Of course, the physics of figure skating is such that a certain body type is preferable to others.

 

[Layfan]

I totally agree! I don't know who you are but I appreciate for your rational, unbiased, knowledgeable comments!

Some people here tend to be overly impartial againt a certain (type of) skater because of their personal appetite. I should also admit that I prefer "artistic" skaters to "technical" ones. That's why I root for Alissa, Ashley, and Mirai, more than Rachel, Kimmie, etc. However, figure skating is a part of sports, not dance or ballet or, as someone says, a "beauty pageant". If Rachel had something (even if it's only technical side) over Mirai within a current scoring system and she deserved to win! She should not be punished for not being as pretty as her competitors.

I think we have something to think about what "artistic" means. Some people, IMHO, tend to equalize "artistry" to "beauty" in case of female skaters. Considering the opinions posted here about "artistic" skaters, I feel that many people tend to think a certain skater is "artistic" if she has beautiful body builds, that is, if she is slimmer (I mean, beautiful body line) and more flexible, she is considered as more artistic. I think that's one of the reasons why Joannie and Miki, for example, are often considered here as non-artistic (which I do not agree now). I used to think that way too. I know that's not always true. In Yuna's case, she is yet considered as artistic (isn't she?) even if she is not extraordinarily flexible ( I still know some folks here are nitpicking her flexibility and don't like her for that!) because she is musically expressive: but she has at least slim body. What if she was neither flexible nor slim (like Rachel)? Will she be as beautiful (therefore artistic) as now?

I've always been hoping there will be a psychological experiment what people consider as "artistic"

Look, some skaters have the physical gifts to look more graceful on the ice than others. Just like we shouldn't give a skater a break because she doesn't have the physical ability to do a 3-3 we shouldn't give a skater a break on artistry just because she doesn't have the physical ability to be as graceful as others.

It's not fair to say oh, but Sasha just doesn't have the physical ability to do a consistent 3-3 so give her a break. And it's not fair to say, oh well Rachael doesn't have the physical ability to do a nice spiral or look sharp in her footwork sequence so let's give her an A for effort and call her an artistic skater anyway.

It doesn't just come down to flexibility, either. Michelle Kwan was not the most flexible skater of her time but she cleaned up on the artistry scores. For Michelle it was her carriage across the ice and her ability to project and skate to the tip of her fingernails.