Axel in SP

[hongligl]

I think it might be reasonable to change the ladies' short program rules to allow skaters to have the options do a 2A or a 3A, just as in Pairs, 2Tw or 3Tw. It's fair to skaters with higher skill levels.

Also it is really necessary to do something with the downgrade related rules. For example, Mao did a 3A+2T, and a 2A in her LP during this World, and her 3A got downgraded (why? it looked perfectly fine, yes she pre-rotated the jump, but looking at the landing it appears totally in-line with the her take-off line) , she got more point for the 2A than the 3A+2T, that is just wrong, not good for the sport. And look at how much Dai got for the 4F.

 

[tarotx]

I think a 3A should be allowed in the ladies short as the axel jump as well. It would add a little value for the few ladies who can land them. I mean not many of the ladies are doing the triple axel but few are landing a non downgraded triple-triple in the short and it's allowed. I also think that if the double axel wasn't a required jump more ladies would train the triple.

 

[bibi24]

Just to play a little devil's advocate to this discussion. What if the midpoint value was also introduced for underrotated jumps and 3A is allowed in ladies SP as the axel required jump? Would we then see a flock of ladies going after and performing under-rotated 3A in the SP? Or would the -GOE's be enough to discourage them from doing that?

The 3A is much harder for ladies to perform than for men. Therefore I think the 3A should have an increased based value compared to the men.

And look at how much Dai got for the 4F.

Did you mean that was a good thing or bad thing? I couldn't really comprehend lol
I thought Dai was properly rewarded for his 4F attempt, a downgraded to 3F with minor -GOE. The jump was by no means ready (he's never landed it), he lost a bit of balance in the setup therefore couldn't get the usual height & strength he wanted to complete the rotations.

 

[hongligl]

Maybe I should use "how little" instead of "how much" in the case of Dai's 4F. I was not challenging the marks, I have doubt about the reasonableness of the rule. A higher difficulty jump add a lot excitment to a program, and it should be awarded no matter if it was successful or not, it should be a matter how much to be awarded, rather than how to punish the daring effort IMO. What should be punished IMPO is fall. A fall causes more damage to a program than an underrotated jump. If we want more audience to feel satisfied about programs and about themselves, the COP really has a lot to be worked on.

 

[antmanb]

I've posted about this before so i'll try to keep it short and sweet!

The men's SP requirements were not changed to allow a 2A or 3A in the SP until nearly every man was attempting the 3A in their LP. Similarly the Sp requirements were not changed to allow a quad jump, until at least the final flight (and more) were attempting quads in their LP.

I don't think the ISU is giong to chnage the ladies axel SPrule until there are at least 5 or 6 female skater regularly attempting 3As in their LPs. I also do not think the ISU should change the rules until there is more than one person attempting a particular jump.

As to the mid-way BV for an under-rotated jump. I agree that something needs to be done about the fact that UR jumps are penalised more than anything else, however, the mid-way point value looks very "slippery slope" to me. Skaters who are starting to rotate harder jumps and manage to stand up on them may be encouraged to stand up on jumps they have never fully rotated in order to get more points. Male skaters going for 3.5 toe-loops or salchows, or given the vast points those who can rotate quad salchows stand a fairly good chance of doing 4 revs on an axel take-off. Do we really want to encourage sloppy attempts at greater rotation? I don't know how to fix the system to make it "work" but the mid-way BV seems like a good fix until you look at what it might encourage.

Either way - if they do bring in the mid-way BV I think it should specifically NOT apply in the SP. If the SP is supposed to be the "technical" programme with prescribed elements then I think under-rotated jumps should not be tolerated. Have the freedom in the LP but not the SP.

Ant

 

[RumbleFish]

I think allowing 3A as an axel in ladies SP is just fine.
It will be so exciting to see KYN do an 3A from an Ina Bauer and get 2point GOE.

But I'm not buying the so-called intermediate points to URed jumps though.
A jump is a double jump or a triple jump, not something obscure in between. lol

 

[antmanb]

I think allowing 3A as an axel in ladies SP is just fine.
It will be so exciting to see KYN do an 3A from an Ina Bauer and get 2point GOE.

What??? Since when has Yuna been able to land a 3A, let alone one from an Ina Bauer?

Ant

 

[RumbleFish]

What??? Since when has Yuna been able to land a 3A, let alone one from an Ina Bauer?

Ant

Her coach think she should do the 3A, and I have no reason to doubt him.
After all, Orser was the Mr. 3A.
And if she can do her best 2As from Ina Bauer, why not 3As?

 

[antmanb]

Her coach think she should do the 3A, and I have no reason to doubt him.
After all, Orser was the Mr. 3A.
And if she can do her best 2As from Ina Bauer, why not 3As?

If it was so easy to add a rotation to the 3A more women would have done so by now.

Ant

 

[RumbleFish]

If it was so easy to add a rotation to the 3A more women would have done so by now.

Ant

Not many women won OGM with 2 clean performances and no women has scored 228 points but KYN.
Also, she can delay her triple lutz in the air better than many of the men and I don't see why her 3A should be any different if she really puts her mind to it.

 

[hurrah]

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/flash/KFullFlash20100329088.html

Says that Japanese Fed will appeal to ISU for a rule change to allow a choice of 3-axel instead of 2-axel in the SP.

Yoshioka Director (?) of JSF says that they want to make the rule the same as men's and that 'as long as there is a skater who can do it, the rule should be changed'.... It will prevent a situation such as happened at Russia Cup, where Mao's 2-axel was discounted because her 3-axel was called on under-rotation.

I do think that as long as men are allowed, it should be allowed for women. If it's not going to be allowed for women, then men should not be allowed to have a choice of 2-axel/3-axel.

 

[Bennett]

Not sure if this is going to happen because there is only one skater now who does that.

I am kind of surprised to see JSF so assertive. I have never seen them doing any politics like this.

After all, this is one of the proposals that may or may not be ratified.

 

[hurrah]

Not sure if this is going to happen because there is only one skater now who does that.

I am kind of surprised to see JSF so assertive. I have never seen them doing any politics like this.

After all, this is one of the proposals that may or may not be ratified.

Well, there are many skaters who do it. It's just that only one of them happens to be a woman, and she's being punished for being a woman rather than being a man.

You could argue that the present rule has been gender discriminatory all along. It's just that the discrimination never became an issue before because there wasn't a woman until now whose triple-axel was secure enough for her to find the choice of putting it in the SP remotely feasible.

 

[let`s talk]

quad should be a mandatory jump for men in SP

 

[hurrah]

quad should be a mandatory jump for men in SP

Well, if there ever came along a male skater who could do a quad-axel, the rule should be that he could do a quad-axel rather than a triple-axel or double-axel.

In fact, I don't understand why they even specify the number of rotation of axel jumps in the first place. It should be whatever number of rotation that the skater wants to attempt.

 

[sarukou]

Well, if there ever came along a male skater who could do a quad-axel, the rule should be that he could do a quad-axel rather than a triple-axel or double-axel.

In fact, I don't understand why they even specify the number of rotation of axel jumps in the first place. It should be whatever number of rotation that the skater wants to attempt.

I agree, I don't get the restrictions placed on skaters particularly in the short program. These skaters are the best in the World! There shouldn't be so many restraints.
As another example for the Men, they are allowed to do a quad-triple combo or a quad out of steps, but they are not allowed to do both. There is a rule in place against doing two quad in the SP, even if they are different takeoffs.
If a skater has the talent to do that, (how many skaters in the world can?) there shouldn't be anything preventing them from doing it.

 

[gkelly]

I don't get the restrictions placed on skaters particularly in the short program. These skaters are the best in the World! There shouldn't be so many restraints.

Short programs have always been about restrictions. The skaters have far more freedom about which elements to attempt in the short than they did 20+ years ago.

And the rules for the senior short program are the same for the best in the world as well as for the lowest-ranked seniors. It's up to the best skaters to show off their best skills to best advantage within those restrictions in order to earn top placements.

There is a rule in place against doing two quad in the SP, even if they are different takeoffs.

That's true, but so far there have been even fewer men who have successfully landed two different kinds of quads in LPs than there have been women who have successfully landed triple axels.

When there are at least five or six of them doing it in LPs each year, then they'll change the rule for the SPs.

It will prevent a situation such as happened at Russia Cup, where Mao's 2-axel was discounted because her 3-axel was called on under-rotation.

Asada's opening jump was called a double axel at Cup of Russia because she only rotated 2 1/2 times; it WAS a double axel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcN1T3jVQ3E

If a man did that on an intended triple axel combination, it would be called as a double as well, and he would get no credit for doing another 2A as the solo axel later in the SP.

That did sometimes happen, especially up to 1998 when men were still required to do a solo 2A. If they were thinking on their feet, they would count the 2A that was meant to be 3A combo as the solo 2A and then put a triple combo later in the program where the 2A was planned. If they were daring, they'd try the 3A combo, but that was risky for mid-level senior men 2 minutes into the program. If less daring, they might substitute 3Lo-2T or 3S-2T.

Asada evidently either didn't realize that she had only executed a double, or else she didn't have a backup plan and couldn't think of one on in the heat of the moment.

The short program has always heavily penalized failure to meet its exact requirements. Repeating the double axel is a big nono. It was a costly mistake. Hopefully she learned from the experience and now has a backup plan in case it happens again.


The short program rules are not going to be changed to benefit one exceptional skater. They'll be changed when a certain level of technical content becomes normal and expected from many skaters in long programs.

 

[sk8rdad]

Even if the 3A were ratified it would not significantly improve the base score of Mao's SP. Assuming the non-jump elements were the same as at Worlds the most likely jumps would be 3Lo, 3F+2Lo and 3A, remember Mao currently doesn't do 3Lz. If you took Mao's SP from Worlds and adjusted the base value to assume a clean 3A+2T rather than the underrotated combo (she did do it cleanly at the Olys after all). Then the base score for her worlds program would be 34.4. The base score using the jump layout above, which IMO is a realistic layout, would be 35.1 this is only a 0.7 point base increase. So the 3A as a solo jump wouldn't make a significant difference to the SP.

 

[hurrah]

Even if the 3A were ratified it would not significantly improve the base score of Mao's SP. Assuming the non-jump elements were the same as at Worlds the most likely jumps would be 3Lo, 3F+2Lo and 3A, remember Mao currently doesn't do 3Lz. If you took Mao's SP from Worlds and adjusted the base value to assume a clean 3A+2T rather than the underrotated combo (she did do it cleanly at the Olys after all). Then the base score for her worlds program would be 34.4. The base score using the jump layout above, which IMO is a realistic layout, would be 35.1 this is only a 0.7 point base increase. So the 3A as a solo jump wouldn't make a significant difference to the SP.

No, it could potentially be alot more. She didn't have a 3-3 this season, but she has done 3 flip - 3 toe loop and 3 flip - 3 loop in the past and she has said that she will resume practicing 3-3's again. So the potential layout is triple-axel, triple-triple jump and a triple jump. Depending on which type of triple she jumps, the base score will change, but it will certainly be more than what you suggest.

However, what her base value would be is rather pointless to the discussion at hand. The whole point is that since men are allowed to do it, it should be allowed for women; this should have been the rule all along. The rule doesn't make the triple-axel compulsory for women. It makes it a choice for them. If women are not going to be allowed the choice, then the rule should be changed so that men should not be allowed the choice.

I get that this rule has not such a great chance of being passed. However, if it doesn't pass, I think it will only be fodder for general society to talk about lack of gender awareness in ISU thinking---they must live in the Victorian era---and how they themselves don't seem to think that figure skating is actually a sport.

 

[wallylutz]

haha, the answer is NO, absolutely not. This idea is being floated by no other than JSF for purely self-serving reasons with no regards to how this may affect the future of ladies skating. Like someone else said elsewhere, if you count the number of skaters who have had knee surgeries, groin injuries and their hips replaced, I want to be able to see skaters walk normally when they hit 40. Triple Axel is clearly not a standard jump yet for ladies. At this time, only one female skater has any resemblance of consistency on this jump in competition. Even her, she missed it more often than not. In other words, the intention of JSF is to get lucky. They are hoping the change would allow the tiny chance that the said skater would get "lucky" once in a while, the latest batting average is 1/3 by the way. Doesn't sound like a very promising stats to back up for such a major change. Besides, rule change should never be made to accommodate just one individual skater. As for the gender bias claim, people who suggest that, could you please quit already? Did we ask men to do spiral sequence and layback spin as well or can you claim gender bias in that as well? What's next? Asking that the factored PCS for ladies to be identical to men's as well? :sheesh:

Between this and the so called mid-point value for the UR jumps, I think JSF is asking for a lot and may end up getting nada at all. Both of these topics are such Pandora-box topics that I hope they are sealed for a very long time. Thankfully, my sense is neither of the two proposals would have any viable chance of becoming reality, much less the Triple Axel for ladies in the SP replacing the Double Axel.