I'd say Joannie's programs were better than Mirai's. It's not that Mirai's were bad, but Joannie's were among the most sophisticated, well-choreographed programs in the field at least during the last couple of years. If Mirai had better programs that had matched Rochette's, then the result might have been better. Technically, I think that Mirai was better out there. She was clean and extremely fast. Rochette was fast, too, but not clean in her LP. She made at least two major mistakes. And she did not have 3-3 or 3A as Yuna and Mao did.
maybe controversial but want to know...ladies bronze vancouver
- Thread starter Bijoux
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At 2008 worlds Mao doen't completely leave the ice at all. Her front leg was in the air and she hit an edge (or something) and face planted. It was marked an Axel and recieved no points. In Vancouvour she is setting up a jump, catches an edge (or something) and then does the jump. It's not even really a new prep. It's altogether.
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- Oct 31, 2006
And Yu-Na did not have a 3loop like Mao and Joannie did.
And Mao did not have a 3Lutz, a 3Salchow, and a 3toe like Yu-Na and Joannie did.
If you're going to scrutinize what one Olympic medalist lacked in jump content, you may as well be fair and specify what jumps the gold and silver medalist didn't have. Joannie so often gets criticized for not doing "difficult" technical content when in fact she's one of the very few ladies who does a full arsenal of triples minus the Axel.
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- Oct 22, 2005
Actually it was marked as an "A" with no value. A single Axel is marked as "1A" and one that is under-rotated but is more than 3/4 of a turn (or so) is marked "1A <"
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- Feb 25, 2006
I kind of thought Mirai should have beat Joannie in the FS, but Joannie was ahead in the SP so maybe she still would have come out ahead even if Mirai beat her in the FS. However, in person the skating might have looked different. People talk about Joannie having a magical quality to her artistry and maybe that's only picked up on if you're watching the event live. Joannie was often ahead of other skaters who had better jumps in other competitions, because of her PCs, so I don't think it was a gift because her mother died. If they had really wanted to gift her, they would have given her the silver over Mao, because Mao did mess up some elements.
I think what you meant to say is that the Technical Panel chose not to invoke the <<Attempted Jump>> clause in the Vancouver Olympic re: that specific Triple Toe Loop attempt. The rule I quoted however is applicable and as far as I am concerned, the correct one in this situation. The Panel may have chosen not to invoke it, but that doesn't mean an argument cannot be made that it should have. The rule does not limit the definition of an <<Attempted Jump>> to a single type of listed jump, it can be Axel, Loop, Toe Loop and anything, like a Flip such Yu-Na Kim did here at TEB 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wajuze5f8#t=1m24s
As you can see, her foot never left the ice either, nor did she fall. Falling is not a requirement for an Attempted Jump to be called as you seem to think by citing Mao's failed Triple Axel at the 2008 Worlds. Nevertheless, the Technical Panel counted that as an attempt per the protocol here: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra09/gpfra09_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf If Kim had attempted another jump somewhere else in her program, she would have the 8th jumping pass voided as invalid.
Skaters make that kind of mental error all the time, Oda did at the 2009 Worlds by doing a 4th jumping combo for example. Skaters falling or stumbling on take off of an jump, never got into the air, got up or regroup and do it again = invalid. This happens more often at the lower level of skaters, so if you watch the Group 1 or 2 of SP at Worlds, you tend to see those lower level skaters making that kind of mistake.
Here are two recent examples of stumbles into a jump that if the skater has fallen on those stumbles, it would / should NOT have constituted as an Attempted Jump:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjgl_854vLs&feature=related#t=1m22s at 1m24s mark, you can hear Barbara Fusar-Poli calling it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yRTJyIlmCI&feature=related#t=1m25s at 1m27s mark, you can see her stumble into her Triple Lutz combo
I know. But COP does not reward having a full arsenal of triples. That's why Mao without a full set of triples was unbeatable in 2005, before the edge and UR calls came to be introduced.
Yeah, but Mirai may have been robbed in SP, too.
Joannie was already great two seasons ago but was not rewarded. Then after getting the reputation, she has come to be rewarded. Then even when she messed up at SC, she was rewarded.
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I had Rochette second. I know I'm in the BIG minority in the skating world, but I had Asada for gold, Rochette for silver and Nagasu for bronze, with Kim fourth.
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Gees, I would like to see your protocols...
I realize that falling isn't an requirement. There was no reason to underline it. The reason I sited it was because she had her lift leg in the air going for the jump although she hadn't left the ice with her other foot. Imo when Yu Na's whatever was a ruled a jump that tech panel got it wrong. She just did the 3 turns but there was no jump at all. You don't have to do a jump when it's scheduled. You can do a 3 turns without jumping at all. I've see skaters do 3 turns in their footwork. She clearly made a mistake there but since there was no going in to the jump-it shouldn't have been ruled a attempt. Any way Mao didn't exactly reset after the mistake and continue into her toe loop.
Thanks mskater93 I didn't look at the protocols. I just knew it received no points that that people were saying that if she had failed to do another axel that attempt would have counted as her axel attempt.
Thanks mskater93 I didn't look at the protocols. I just knew it received no points that that people were saying that if she had failed to do another axel that attempt would have counted as her axel attempt.
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- Oct 19, 2009
I'm just curious about something: Let's say the Olympic tech/judging panel ruled that Mao's 3T attempt should have been voided...why make her 1T her final jumping pass, and allowing her 2A to count? The 1T was clearly the "fill-in" for her 3T after the stumble.
Well, I think we have to agree to disagree here. You consider the TEB 2009 call a mistake but felt that the obvious toe loop attempt by Asada in Vancouver wasn't an attempt at all? It seems to me, given there are already many precedents re: such situation, then the prudent thing to do is to follow the precedents. If that wasn't an attempt, what do you think Mao was trying to do that precise moment? Skating backward to look pretty?
Also, using your logic, then Kim's layback spin should not have been voided in Torino either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpTlrTLCp2Y#t=1m25s
The turn which she stumbled on wasn't a layback position or any other type of prescribed position such as sit, camel or upright position. Couldn't an argument be made that she just stumbled on a turn given that skaters too do different kind of turns in their footwork as well such as here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjgl_854vLs#t=2m41s
Let's face it, we are kidding ourselves if an argument can be made that Asada didn't stumble on her Triple Toe Loop attempt, then Kim must have just added an extra turn to her choreography going to her Layback spin and she merely stumbled on part of her "new" choreography. Such argument is disingenuous and highly suspect.
Anyway, what was done was done, history. It is merely brought up here for educational purpose, nothing more. The party concerned didn't file a complaint, so she is waving her right, case closed.
Because the way jumping passes are counted, it is based on the chronological order in which they are performed. As you can see on the protocol, ladies FS only have 12 slots for their elements, of which only 7 of them may be jumping passes. That sheet will be filled up in the order that the various elements were performed. Therefore, if the Attempted Jump designation was given, the protocol would like this:
- T -----------------------------------------------------------------------
- 1T , followed by the GOE given to that element by the judges
Then when it comes to the 8th jumping pass, a 2A, the element would receive an asterix * besides that element and the whole box receive a --------------------------------------- as an invalid element with no value given.
Some people see the sum of the parts of Yu na -like her spiral leg isn't as pretty as some and forget to see the whole package in that she has an incredible edge and speed in that position. For example. I think the rules help Yu na (like the no 3 axel as the axel in the short) but Yu na is a lovely whole package skater who deserved her gold and huge over all lead. She really bought it under pressure plus she has the most gorgeous toe jumps perhaps ever!
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And Mao wasn't preparing for her Toe Loop, she was just skating backward and her upper body prepared to rotate for no reasons at all?
I think you need to go and watch some of the lower level competitions and tell those skaters they got short-changed because their jumps got marked as attempts even though their bodies never left the ice. I am not going to get dragged into an argument that is clearly disingenuous. Please find me verifiable cases in the past which such jump wasn't marked as an attempt at an ISU competition with videotape reference(s), to support your argument, like the ones I have been posting so that we can all look at it. To the best of my knowledge, this kind of situation has almost always been ruled as an Attempted Jump, hence my shock in Vancouver that it wasn't. Had Asada beat Kim due to this call in Vancouver, I would fear for the personal safety of the Technical Panel in Vancouver in case anyone missed the speed skating flap re: women's relay team competition in Vancouver the day before Ladies Free Skate, another incident that got the ISU on the edge already. And this forum would probably be shut down long time ago due to fan based protests and claims of unfairness and preferential treatment + score fixing. Just imagine Kim fans citing the TEB 2009 case as a clear evidence of biased treatment towards Asada.
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