maybe controversial but want to know...ladies bronze vancouver
- Thread starter Bijoux
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Absolutely the same name. The pronunciation is close to PAK but many people also use PARK too.
I am not Korean. But to me, Pak sounds more familiar (sounds more similar), but for English-speaking ppl, Park may be easier to remember.
Don't count out Chan-Ho Park who's going have the most career wins recorded by any Asian pitchers in MLB by the end of this season, and Y.E. Yang who is the first and only Asian golfer to win a PGA major championships (over Tiger Woods :thumbsup
. 
BTW, the original poster sounds very ignorant.
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- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
I think it has been happening prior to the change from 6.0. I'm sure you could think of more instances than I because of your knowledge of the history in FS. Thinking that skaters are a "little" - lol - more outspoken than in the past this keeps the controversy theory fire burning. It maybe not as many either, yet there was controversy with the 6.0. Still j.m.o So with the change of the C.O.P giving higher importance to "technical aspects" we have an audience that still is subject to the "performance value." There is more than a couple of reasons why the C.O.P came about and one that made it necessary.
I don't feel that the opinions of people who see one skater and think that she was better than another when "performance" is an aspect of score and think differently of the outcome is "crap" lol. I think I see what you mean but all fans of sports suffer the same fate. Judgment call from an staff / personnel (or whatever ) to "call it like they see it" and we fans are always going to be saying our favorite was better and try and prove it just as fans of sports have done.
I did feel that shared opinion around here that there was some "surprise" OR "disapproval" for the out come. I thought there was going to be a different outcome if I was to score what I felt was best.
I know this sounds a little of topic, the thing I worry about is skating not being as "fun" do to lack of "artistic impression" and less want to be involved and we wind up watching Robots on ice.
Trying to get b.o.t. the skating I saw placed all within the top 3 all in the top 3. I cannot watch one of them subjectively but she is i.mo. always a contender and deserves one of the top 3 spots in every performance I have seen of hers. JR was the best I have ever seen her skate and yes it had some "issues" but all of her routines have had issues that I have seen. Marai I think put herself right where she wanted to be. Ms. Kim *bow bow* that was exquisite (yes she was not flawless but se was less than anyone I think I have ever seen skate ever ... did I say EVER?. But Maria and Rachel were still my "2 favorite."
There we have it, the Standings are the top 4 are were they belong. I am satisfied!
I think it is great that fans squabble, I think we should. I love on of MMs post placing silver in forth and moving up the standings.
Anyhoo "controversy in C.O.P I don't think is because of the C.O.P. The C.O.P is a part of judging a sport - ALL SPORTS HAVE THEM by some name - so it is going to fuel the fire. Look at the tie breaker decision in Football, that is a LOAD OF "controversy" also. Ah sports, got to love them!!!!!
That's such a sweeping statement. Not everyone thought she did great. If you digged up the old threads, a lot of people saw several URs in her LP in real time. They just didn't know how generous the tech caller was.
The audience who followed Mirai didn't feel like they have been the victims because she got many many downgrades just a few weeks before nationals.
On paper, if Joannie completed her 2A+2A sequence, the difference in base mark alone should be enough to give her the Silver assuming no negative GOE. I had the chance to catch her glance right before she did her 2A and I still remember her face even today is that she seemed so...difficult to describe, a combination of tired, laborious, trying too hard or thinking too much. Double Axel is an easy jump for such an elite athlete and for her to completely give up on the 2nd Axel or not place a double toe there instead, which is her normal back up plan if the 1st 2A is not solid enough, it says to me her problem on that jump is mental. I had a hint she was going to have trouble with that jump when I saw her particular glance.
Later, she told the press that if her mother were there, she would have questioned her why she gave up on the 2nd Axel.
hwell: The reality is though, Joannie did the right thing. When she lost her balance and had to put her free foot down - that extra little step would automatically void any jumps she attached at the back of the 1st jump, let it be a combo or sequence. In comparison, I think the reason why Asada only did a single toe after the stumble/botched entry was because she probably recalled that she should not try to repeat a jump that she just missed as any coach would have told their students so the single toe was in fact an aborted jump as she probably had enough speed and strength to do a triple toe there if she really wanted to. Ironically, Tracy Wilson and Kurt Browning referred to this "repeat element error" in their comments on Yu-Na Kim's missed layback spin as a major error except their comment was misplaced. Kim in fact did the right thing as there was little to no risk that her two other spins could be voided by her attempt to cover up her missed layback spin. Spins and jumps have different "attempted" rule where the jumps definitely carry a greater risk of causing subsequent elements to be voided than spins. Though if Wilson and Browning had said that when Asada missed her Triple Toe, it would have been spot on.
This may seem complicate but it really isn't. Though without a doubt, human judgment is necessary to interpret these rules just as other sports like speed skating or ice hockey. Someone said there is something wrong if the crowd can't comprehend the figure skating results such as Mirai Nagasu not winning the U.S. Nationals. I have to ask though, many other sports, such as speed skating where the first one to cross the line wins - can't be any more objective than that - also have a component where human judgment is involved as well. In Vancouver, I saw ISU referees handing out DQ and stripping some people or teams of their timed 1st place finish - human judgment overriding the timer, isn't that the same as Tech. Panel downgrading jumps? I'd even say that downgrades is far less draconian than DQ because a skater may not lose anything due to a downgrade but a DQ, you are left with absolutely nothing. By comparison, if Nagasu had been compared to a speed skater, her outcome in Spokane would have been compared to her Silver medal being stripped and Wagner & Cohen move a up a spot each. Would the crowd still wonder in :think: ? Even in ice hockey, referees have also disqualified scored goals as well. There too, there is human judgment involved. So why is that figure skating alone getting so much criticism as a judged sport even though pretty much all other sports have judgment involved, one way or the other, if not even more draconian than skating?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Thank you Wallylutz for your informative and on-topic posts on this thread.
I wouldn't say figure skating alone. In the case where one person appears to win, then ends up losing because of an after-the-fact review by the officials -- emotionally that just takes the wind out of the whole competition and leaves the audience saying, "well, phooey, why do I watch such a stupid sport."
That can happen in any sport, and the spectator does indeed go home grumpy and unsatisfied.
On the other hand, historically figure skating really was a "judged sport." In other sports the referees had, in principle, no role to play except to ensure that the rules were followed. Like the tech specialists, in principle, in the IJS.
What makes figure skating unique is that the judges also like a performance better if the skater points her toes, turns out her knees, and achieves a lilt of the body that matches the tempo of the music. This involves true "judgment" on the part of the judges, not just looking at slo-motion replays, rule book in hand.
The ISU's decision to make figure skating "more like other sports" -- well, be careful what you ask for, you might get it. (That's what I think anyway )
Wallylutz said:
I wouldn't say figure skating alone. In the case where one person appears to win, then ends up losing because of an after-the-fact review by the officials -- emotionally that just takes the wind out of the whole competition and leaves the audience saying, "well, phooey, why do I watch such a stupid sport."
That can happen in any sport, and the spectator does indeed go home grumpy and unsatisfied.
On the other hand, historically figure skating really was a "judged sport." In other sports the referees had, in principle, no role to play except to ensure that the rules were followed. Like the tech specialists, in principle, in the IJS.
What makes figure skating unique is that the judges also like a performance better if the skater points her toes, turns out her knees, and achieves a lilt of the body that matches the tempo of the music. This involves true "judgment" on the part of the judges, not just looking at slo-motion replays, rule book in hand.
The ISU's decision to make figure skating "more like other sports" -- well, be careful what you ask for, you might get it. (That's what I think anyway
)I think it is because the figure skating is much more complicated than other sports. Everybody knows how to win in soccer or boxing. But not everybody knows how to win in figure skating. It's not all about the jumps and it is not all about the artistry. It's both. Not only that, every jump is different. The level of execution is important, too. And everything is done so fast. However, through forums like this, I think more people will be educated. Well, if they are willing to learn.
Very true.
And before either jumps or artistry, it's about the curve and flow of edges on the ice. That's what allows both skating jumps and skating artistry. Without it, there's no skating.
But for people who don't skate or spend time watching skating live and up close, the actual skating is a lot harder to perceive when watching on TV than the jumps or the body movements above the blade.
The sport of skating is always going to prioritize rewarding the best skating. When that happens to coincide with the best jumping and/or artistry, everyone will recognize the same winners. When the best skater has less jump content or less artistry than someone else, the judges and the casual fans might disagree about who skated best.
Depending on the mix of skills, the judges might disagree with each other.
It's possible for there to be more than one "right" answer. But that particular panel of judges (and, now, technical specialists) rating the performances with the current rules and scoring algorithms will arrive at one of those possible correct rankings, and that will be the official result for that event.
Yup.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
jjane said:
gkelly said:
Figure skating scoring is more complicated than the scoring systems of other sports.
Every sport is complicated at the highest levels of performance. In soccer I'm sure that there are at least as many different ways to strike the ball as there are different jumps in figure skating. Golf, too, for that matter. Plus in soccer you must also play defense as well as well as cooperate with your teammates. A soccer player must constantly be reacting to what 21 other players on the field are doing at the same time.
But, yes, for better or worse the scoring system in figure skating is morre complicated. In other sports a thousand little details are concatenated and magnified into a single GOAL, With the IJS, the skater gets fractions of a point separately for each of these little details.
That was true in 6.0 scoring as well.
All the little details that get officially added up under IJS, plus some other details that are not officially taken into account in IJS rules (e.g., variety of jump takeoffs) were all part of what judges took into consideration when arriving at the two marks for technical merit and presentation. There just wasn't any detail given publicly about how the two marks were arrived at. Often even the judges probably weren't consciously aware of every detail that contributed to their holistic impressions of relative quality. But all those details and more were part of what was considered.
You really can't compare judged sports to goal-scoring sports.
But something like gymnastics scoring would be comparably complex to skating scoring, especially if you consider all the apparatuses as part of the same competition even if they're competed at different times by each gymnast. However, only one number is posted for each apparatus so the public doesn't see all the details that went into arriving at those numbers any more than they do for skating when all that's announced are two numbers for Technical Merit and Presentation, or for Total Elements and Program Components, as the case may be.
Figure skating is essentially a "judged sport" where the judges determine the outcome of a competition unlike the other sports mentioned where ideally, the athletes determine the outcome and referees are not usually involved. Judging is limited to the role of the referee, whose only function to ensure that there is no foul play and the rules are being followed---I guess similar to the role of FS tech panel but also, very different from the function of the judging panel. But yeah, if you think of it, there is some degree of human judgement involved in every sport, but not to the extent and depth. So, inevitably there will be more controversy in an outcome of a figure skating competition versus a sport like speedskating because the role of the judge is limited.
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I think the results under cop in this olympics were pretty fair. In fact, the most fair olys I recall. I'd have to go back and review Torino, but compared to SLC this was fair figureskating for once. Ice Dance has been so cleaned up. Then mens was fair, the ladies was fair. I really feel only a couple people were not rewarded as they should have been, but I can't give you CoP reasons as I don't study it. It's too complicated and it takes the fun out of just trying to enjoy the skate.
I do think this UR mania is a bit much. Flatt should have been 5th. She will not get the international respect she deserves. The experts watching/commentators said her flips looked fine. I think she sees the writing on the wall. People act like there is something wrong with her body type. She does not have beautiful gams but she does point her toes. Her body is just fine. She's the typical skater height and a cute girl. Yu-na does not have pretty legs, IMO, either. Many skaters don't. I've read bowlegged skaters have the advantage, tho I have no ide why. Yu-na, best in world at least at present, gets some unflattering lines and no toe point. they try to compensate with her skate coverings instead of working on her toe pioint and technique during spirals/spins. The judges in FS will continue to be human, as they were under 6.0, but they really have to at least give a lot more justification for their placements.
I think they maybe need to keep tweaking cop but bias of several kinds will always be there. I will also say, off point, that Belgosto deserved third, and I just feel judges would not give North American Sweep of podium. Sorry to die hard Dom/Shabs fans, but that bronze was for me not based on what they presented.
I do think this UR mania is a bit much. Flatt should have been 5th. She will not get the international respect she deserves. The experts watching/commentators said her flips looked fine. I think she sees the writing on the wall. People act like there is something wrong with her body type. She does not have beautiful gams but she does point her toes. Her body is just fine. She's the typical skater height and a cute girl. Yu-na does not have pretty legs, IMO, either. Many skaters don't. I've read bowlegged skaters have the advantage, tho I have no ide why. Yu-na, best in world at least at present, gets some unflattering lines and no toe point. they try to compensate with her skate coverings instead of working on her toe pioint and technique during spirals/spins. The judges in FS will continue to be human, as they were under 6.0, but they really have to at least give a lot more justification for their placements.
I think they maybe need to keep tweaking cop but bias of several kinds will always be there. I will also say, off point, that Belgosto deserved third, and I just feel judges would not give North American Sweep of podium. Sorry to die hard Dom/Shabs fans, but that bronze was for me not based on what they presented.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
after a lot of moderation it was reopened.
Sorry for the late reply. Yes, Park and Pak are spelled the same in Korean as 박 and it is pronounced without the r sound. But there are different family lines of 박 so they have different ways of spelling it. Same applies to Lee and Yi or Seong and Song.
Yes, and the Korean pronunciation of 박 is actually "bahk", although it is spelled "Pak" or "Park", among other different variations.
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