Sasha & Rockne???

[i love to skate]

so SBS jumps are important and can cost skaters medals when not exectued properly. The lifts on the other hand may have a base value of 7.15 but that doesn't mean the judge will see it that way, the skaters could be downgraded.

I never said that jumps aren't important, just that they aren't the biggest point getters - which they aren't. Look at K/S LP at 2010 Worlds for example:

5ALi4 7.15 base value 1.60 GOE = 8.75
5SLi4 6.60 base value .60 GOE = 7.20

Two very big numbers and bigger than both of the points earned from jump sequences, in the example you gave. I'm not saying that jumps don't get points - but the majority of the time there will be a number of elements scored higher than a jump (especially if the jump is not in a sequence).

As for lifts being downgraded, how does that matter? Skaters could be downgraded on jumps as well...

 

[Blades of Passion]

Does this include skaters who did both up to senior level and then chose singles (or had it chosen for them by body size and/or the partner's choice)? E.g., Paul Wylie, Yamaguchi and Galindo.

They all "got somewhere" in pairs, but for various reasons they each chose to focus on singles and sooner or later achieved world-class success in that discipline.

My argument was that you won't find skaters who competed in pairs at the Senior level, did poorly, and then switched to singles and did well. Yamaguchi and Galindo are skaters who did well in singles after doing great in pairs (or, in Yamaguchi's case, she was doing well in singles at the same time she competed in pairs).

You will find many skaters who didn't do well in singles but then switched to pairs and were able to achieve a much higher level of success, though. Thus, pairs is "easier".

Lots of skaters who have done pretty well in singles also skated pairs at the lower levels but chose to focus on singles well before they got to seniors -- e.g., Rachael Flatt, Ryan Bradley, Jeremy Abbott. Did they quit pairs because they were better at singles? Because they liked singles better? Because it was logistically easier to sustain singles training than to coordinate with a partner, especially if they grew at different rates than the first partner? Because they were only dabbling with pairs in the first place? I don't know. But we can't rule out that some of them might have quit pairs because they knew they had more potential for success in singles, despite the numerical odds.

Oh, no doubt some people simply aren't as good at pairs. But that's a little like comparing someone with Quad jumps and bad spirals to someone who can only do Double jumps and has excellent spirals. Yeah, the person with great spirals is doing something the other can't, but they aren't displaying greater technical merit overall.

Obviously the gap isn't that large when comparing singles vs. pairs but, regardless, look at the ages some of the top Pairs skaters have been able to compete at. It's clear that the technical requirements of pair skating are overall less demanding than the technical demands of singles skating.

And someone like Naomi Nari Nam never got to Worlds in either discipline. Her highest Nationals result was ultimately in singles. So I don't see these examples being proof of either discipline being "harder" than the other.

She had her best overall placement was when she was much younger.

4 years later, after recovering from serious injury, she tried to do singles again and wasn't successful. She couldn't do the jumps.

But then she switched to pairs and was able to do throw Triple Loops and was able to make it to the National podium in that discipline when she couldn't even make it to Nationals in singles.

So, clearly, pairs was easier for her.

 

[Jaana]

Maybe it is different in other countries, but I remember from old Russian article translations and from other materials that in Russia the otherwise good male singles skaters who did not learn the triple axel, either selected the pairs or ice dance if they wished to continue in skating. In ladies those who were kind of weak in learning all triple jumps (triple axel not included in those days, LOL) turned into pairs skaters or ice dancers. I also understood that it was noticed by the coaches, etc. rather early where one´s strength was.

 

[gkelly]

You will find many skaters who didn't do well in singles but then switched to pairs and were able to achieve a much higher level of success, though. Thus, pairs is "easier".

You're discounting the fact that it's easier to achieve success in pairs (e.g., international assignments) not because of the technical demands but because of the number of competitors one has to beat to earn that success.

And to a large extent the reason there are fewer pairs than there are singles competitors has to do with the technical demands of pair skating. As much body type as athletic talent. But talent for pair elements -- lifting strength and coordination for the men, courage to be lifted and thrown for the women -- and ability to adapt one's technique to another skater plays a part as well.

For female skaters, it's also because there aren't enough potential male partners to go around.

Not everyone who can do triple jumps can also succeed in pairs. If they're female, they may not ever get the opportunity to try even if they want to.

 

[tarotx]

Well someone posted this pairing was just for a show. I have no idea anything about the source...

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/SkateFans/message/198601

 

[mousepotato]

I never said that jumps aren't important, just that they aren't the biggest point getters - which they aren't. Look at K/S LP at 2010 Worlds for example:

5ALi4 7.15 base value 1.60 GOE = 8.75
5SLi4 6.60 base value .60 GOE = 7.20

Two very big numbers and bigger than both of the points earned from jump sequences, in the example you gave. I'm not saying that jumps don't get points - but the majority of the time there will be a number of elements scored higher than a jump (especially if the jump is not in a sequence).

As for lifts being downgraded, how does that matter? Skaters could be downgraded on jumps as well...

I agree, any element can be downgraded but most good pairs are practicing every element in the program equally to ensure the highest points. SBS jumps aren't put on the back burner because they can potentially get fewer points than a lift; especially when it's only a difference between 15.95 for lifts or 14.16 on jumps.

The only time a pair should be concentrating on one element over the other is if they really need work, like K/S triple twist.

I think there is also a lot of danger involved in pairs skating; I would hate to see Rockne or Sasha getting hurt.

 

[FlattFan]

SBS jumps are not the biggest point getters!

For example:
A 3S has a base value of 4.50
A 3STh has a base value of 4.95
A 5ALi4 can have base values of 6.50, 7.15, etc.
A 3LzTw2 has a base value of 5.50
etc.

I should have said, one of the biggest point getters. You are the one who said they don't spend enough time on SBS jumps.
The point is they all do. They just aren't good at single skating elements.

 

[i love to skate]

You are the one who said they don't spend enough time on SBS jumps.

No I'm not.

 

[Apollo13]

SBS jumps are not the biggest point getters!

For example:
A 3S has a base value of 4.50
A 3STh has a base value of 4.95
A 5ALi4 can have base values of 6.50, 7.15, etc.
A 3LzTw2 has a base value of 5.50
etc.

ITA.

The highest single element awarded in the pairs competition at Nationals was 9.15 executed by E/L. It was a Reverse Lasso Lift with a base value of 7.15 and a +2 GOE. The throw triple axel executed by I/B had the highest base value of 8.25 but they had a -0.43 GOE, resulting in a total score of 7.82 for the element, ~1.5 lower than E/L lift. D/B SBS 3T which btw was magnificently executed had a base value of 4.00 and a +1 GOE for a total of 5.00 well below their own lifts which got scores higher than 8.

The same is true in the Olympics. The highest element scored in the Olympics was the 9.15 (7.15 +2 GOE) that E/L received for their Reverse Lasso lift. And if you checked the protocols you will see that the highest scoring element for all the top ten pair teams was their Level 4 lifts.

 

[demarinis5]

Thanks for the info. I did not know that. E/L's Reverse Lasso Lift is glorious.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You're discounting the fact that it's easier to achieve success in pairs (e.g., international assignments) not because of the technical demands but because of the number of competitors one has to beat to earn that success.

Not I'm not. That only helps a little. There's still strong competition at the top. I'm looking at the fact that Naomi Nari Nam couldn't do 3Loop/Flip/Lutz but then switched to pairs and was able to execute throw 3Loops and all of the various lifts. So, again, it's clear that the technical requirements of pairs skating were much easier for her. It's been the exact same case for so many other skaters too. :think:

 

[gkelly]

So, again, it's clear that the technical requirements of pairs skating were much easier for her. It's been the exact same case for so many other skaters too

And other skaters tried out in pairs and didn't find it easier, so you never got to see them skating pairs. It doesn't always work in the same direction, but you only see the direction that works.

How are you defining success? Jumps landed? Results/international assignments?

The numbers game can work with results without changing disciplines. Some skaters change disciplines to have a better chance of getting to Worlds. Some change countries to have a better chance of getting to Worlds. No one would argue that it's easier to land a triple loop representing Azerbaijan than it is representing Russia, but it sure is easier to get to Worlds that way.

So IF you have the ability to change countries, you can have a better chance of getting those opportunities.

For other skaters, IF you have the right body type and temperament to change disciplines to pairs and can find an appropriate partner, you can have a better chance of getting opportunities that way. Not because you're any better as a skater, but because there's less competition.

Here's a skater who had all the standard triples, although as we see here she wasn't consistent with the triple lutz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIZ_ZkII2iY

Here she lands side-by-side triple salchow in a pair program:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuoGMUdgHM0

What skating pairs did was allow her to compete at Worlds a couple of times. But she didn't like it as much as she liked skating singles, so she quit pairs.

As it happened she grew enough during the following year that she struggled with jumps and didn't make it out of sectionals. If she'd continued skating pairs, she still would have had the same jump struggles, but the team would have gotten to Nationals because there just weren't that many other pairs around who could also do the elements. Well, actually, they would have had a bye and GP assignments based on results from the previous year.

Skating pairs didn't make her a better skater or any more likely to land the jumps, although it did help her cover more ice on the thrown jumps than the solo jumps.



Oh, and I'd offer Galina Maniachenko as a skater who switched from pairs to singles with reasonable international success.

 

[gold12345]

You are the one who said they don't spend enough time on SBS jumps. The point is they all do. They just aren't good at single skating elements.

I didn't mean that they don't focus on SBS jumps as much as they should... I just meant that the wide range of skills required for pairs does not allow for as much focus on solo jumping as a single skater would have. So naturally, the singles skills of a pair skater are generally not going to be at the level of someone actually training in singles.

Obviously the gap isn't that large when comparing singles vs. pairs but, regardless, look at the ages some of the top Pairs skaters have been able to compete at. It's clear that the technical requirements of pair skating are overall less demanding than the technical demands of singles skating.

Every skater is different and has different longevity. Didn't Nam need career-ending surgery because of pairs?

But then she switched to pairs and was able to do throw Triple Loops and was able to make it to the National podium in that discipline when she couldn't even make it to Nationals in singles.

So, clearly, pairs was easier for her.

I don't know if pairs was easier for her as much as the competition was easier. There are far fewer pair teams to compete against to qualify to Nationals and the pairs competition at the Nationals in which Nam/Leftheris medaled (2007) was particularly weak, with the winning team not even attempting a SBS triple. After that season, they didn't place well and Nam was plagued by major injury.

As for her throw 3L, I don't think it was that easy and consistent for her. I even remember her doing a throw 2L instead of the triple in at least one Nationals.

 

[Blades of Passion]

And other skaters tried out in pairs and didn't find it easier, so you never got to see them skating pairs.

Well yes, but remember the thesis is that very few people truly prefer doing pairs over singles because humans are inherently selfish and would ideally like to compete and have success in the discipline that gives them sole glory. The majority of skaters don't even attempt pairs at all because they don't like the idea of having to limit their skating or alter their artistry to cater to someone else.

I posit that the technical requirements of pairs skating doesn't require as specific of a talent as singles skating does. There are more singles skaters who could learn and perform the pairs tricks if their lives depended on it than there are pairs skaters who could learn and perform the singles tricks.

Oh, and I'd offer Galina Maniachenko as a skater who switched from pairs to singles with reasonable international success.

I would absolutely not describe her level of skating as success. Furthermore, that doesn't fit into the scenario I stated anyway. What we're looking for is someone who competed in pairs at a high level, did poorly (she was okay), and then switched to singles and did well. There are zero cases of that happening but dozens of cases of the reverse happening. Which suggests singles is more difficult.

I don't know if pairs was easier for her as much as the competition was easier.

I'm not sure what is confusing you. She flat-out could not do the singles elements. But she could do the pairs elements. Injury caused her to retire from pairs but she did better than her attempt at singles and likely staved off retirement-causing injury longer than if he had kept trying to compete in singles.

 

[MKFSfan]

Didn't Nam need career-ending surgery because of pairs?

IIRC, NNN w/d from 2001 Nationals due to a hip injury. She had hip surgery shortly after, before she started training for Pairs. She attempted a comeback to Singles in 2003, but didn't make it to Nationals-placed too low at Sectionals. She tried Pairs from 2005-2008, (5th, 3rd, 7th at Nationals, 6th at 4CC and one GP medal at SA 2006) then retired due to recurring hip injuries.

 

[i love to skate]

The majority of skaters don't even attempt pairs at all because they don't like the idea of having to limit their skating or alter their artistry to cater to someone else.

Again, where are you getting the information to make statements like this?? NNN has said in previous interviews about how much she loved sharing the challenges and rewards with someone and being able to celebrate your successes together.

Naomi: I trust Themi 1000%!!! training to be a pair skater was not easy. Going from singles to pairs is definitely a lot harder than I had anticipated, but I was more than willing to put in the hard work and hours at the rink. The hard work that was put into the transition was so worth it to me and to share the challenge and rewards with someone is definitely a lot more fun. But I try to steal the spotlight from Themi all the time... can you tell?... hahah .....just kidding!!!


http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2007/100807.shtml

I would absolutely not describe her level of skating as success. Furthermore, that doesn't fit into the scenario I stated anyway. What we're looking for is someone who competed in pairs at a high level, did poorly (she was okay), and then switched to singles and did well. There are zero cases of that happening but dozens of cases of the reverse happening. Which suggests singles is more difficult.

Dozens? So far you have given us four examples. I don't understand your reasoning when looking at "success" either. You say that NNN was more successful as a pairs skater because she managed to make the podium at Nationals. Yet, you say that the accomplishments that Inoue, Sale, Ina, Dube, and others had in singles at the National level is not success.

As for Galina Maniachenko, why did you brush her off when it is the exact same situation as NNN? Galina was injured and therefore had to quit pairs. Yet, she was able to resume skating and was able to compete as a singles skater - winning two National Championships, a silver medal, and even placing 4th at Europeans. So, it looks like singles is easier than pairs

 

[gkelly]

I posit that the technical requirements of pairs skating doesn't require as specific of a talent as singles skating does. There are more singles skaters who could learn and perform the pairs tricks if their lives depended on it than there are pairs skaters who could learn and perform the singles tricks.

I posit that you're defining "success" and "performing tricks" much too narrowly.

There absolutely are many more skaters who can do singles tricks and cannot do pair tricks BECAUSE THEY ARE THE WRONG SIZE FOR PAIRS. So they wouldn't even try. Or they would give up long before senior level.

Do you really think Paul Wylie would have had any success as a pair skater at the senior level?

How many women are there in the world who have ever landed triple lutz?

How many have ever done a triple twist lift?

How many of the singles skaters who don't have a history of skating pairs could do a triple twist lift if given the opportunity to train with an expert male pair partner? Taking into account body size and courage as well technique, I'd have to say far fewer than half.

So either they don't try pairs at all, or they try and fail (e.g., fail to find a partner) well below the level where you would ever know they had tried.

 

[Mathman]

Perspective of a non-skater: I don't see how anyone can do pairs at all. For starters, in singles if you fall, you just fall. In pairs, if you drop your partner on her head you might kill somebody.

 

[Tonichelle]

Perspective of a non-skater: I don't see how anyone can do pairs at all. For starters, in singles if you fall, you just fall. In pairs, if you drop your partner on her head you might kill somebody.

so true. I think there are different types of strength. the mental toughness of a pairs skater far surpasses most if not all single skaters.

 

[Kitt]

One of our male skaters (I forget who) said that the pairs girls were the bravest. Think about it -- overhead lifts at high speed, the throw jumps, etc. Courage required!