Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

[ciocio]

AFAIK Kozuka and Chan are both always listed as either 5'6" or 5'7" so they are both small, but to me Kozuka actually gives the appearance of being taller than Patick because he is more slight in build and has longer limbs. In regular terms you could consider them dwarf like, but in the skating world they are pretty average. Rippon, Brezina, Lambiel are all around 5'7" (Plushy too....I don't believe he's 5'10") as were Orser and Buttle. Takahashi is only 5'5" and skaters like Oda and Sawyer are even shorter. Abbott, Verner, Joubert may look tall but they are only around 5'10", so average by normal standards. Evan at 6'2" is the only top skater I can think of that would be considered tall in the real world, and he towers above skaters like Joubert and Abbott who would otherwise look pretty tall out there. So essentially, in the skating world, Chan and Kozuka are not dwarf like by any means, and are actually probably the ideal height/size for a man in skating.

Lambiel is taller than Brezina he´s almost 5´9 (1,75 cm), Plushenko and Joubert have around 5´10 (1,78 and 1,79), Verner is taller than Joubert (1,80 cm I would say), Abbott too, Lysacek is definitelty the tallest guy there.

 

[Nadine]

Hmmm, I'm really wondering how much you know about "Canadians in general"?

Talking about one individual is one thing. Generalizing is another. It's dangerous.

I guess I should've put in a disclaimer: Canadian figure skating, their federation, what I read on the boards over the years, the 2002 Olympics, the 2010 Olympics, the originators of the COP. Of course this doesn't include all Canadians. *rolls eyes*

I find figure skating in general to be corrupt, not the skaters/never the skaters, but the powers behind them (judges, federations, ISU, etc.), it's cyclic, and has been going on since the very beginning. In Sonja Henie's day it was the Norwegians. No country goes unscathed, especially those that are dominating at the time. It is extremely naive to think otherwise.

That said, I have always *tried* (tried being the operative word here) to rise above it all, because if there is one thing I do NOT want to be is an embittered old f.s. fan. Whenever I feel I'm getting to that point I look up an old poster on the 'net and read her writings, one whom has never gotten over the 1998 Olympics, to this day carrying vitriol toward Tara Lipinski, Sasha Cohen, and Sarah Hughes. As if it's their fault, blaming these young women for something that had nothing to do with them. And the same goes for Patrick Chan or whomever, this has nothing to do with him, and I don't hold it against him.

To tell the truth, I just like to enjoy the skating, no matter whence it comes from. And I actually did enjoy Evan and everybody else that night at the Olympics, not just my favorite, lol. I was just happy to be in the audience, watching, enjoying the beauty and athleticism of the athletes. Appreciating how hard they all work.

But I can understand the anti-pathy if some Russians have it in for the Canadians, especially spurred on by the comments of trolls or the solipsism of some Canadian fans, which is never enjoyable to read imho. In this case I recommend stepping away from the boards, relaxing, and coming back after a siesta to read the comments of posters like Dorispulaski.

Ellen, I look forward with great anticipation and excitement for the 2014 Sochi Olympics, knowing it will be the very first time in history Russia will ever host the Winter Olympic Games. I'm only sad that you cannot attend yourself, but I can just imagine the festivities leading up to it!!!!! (8^D ***ps: and I also look forward to your review of Patrick Chan's skating at COR.***

 

[skatinginbc]

As a decided non-expert, I have to disagree a little bit here. True, the average fan can't judge whether his center of gravity maintains a perfect balance over the center of the blade, and things like that. But I do think the average fan can watch his feet and see that he is doing a lot of cool stuff that other skaters don't.

Nay, you are not a "casual skater". I had read your posts for many years before I finally could not hold back my voice but decide to join the forum. I don't know how to skate, either, and it took me a couple years of watching figure skating to appreciate the deep edges, speed, flow, etc.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think too many figure skating fans are too rapt up in their nationalities to really judge a championship. The purpose of a championship is to determine who was the winner, the runner-up and the podium finisher. (Maybe, the judges are also!)

Anyone can see that Patrick has the speed, flow, edgings, and basic turns required in a competition. Did he do his best in his SP and LP? Was he the only one who did their best?

In the case of the GPs, the object is to get to the GP Finals. Each segment does not crown a skater as being the best in the world, and neither does the GPF, the Worlds,the Olympics -only the best in a particular competition.

 

[skatinginbc]

I have been priveliged to hear judges themselves discuss Patrick's skating, and they rave about where he is on the blade in relation to the timing of his knee bends and pushes. He can actually increase speed without pushing by using his knees and edges. His edges are completely true without any incorrect bending at the hip in the lean. The timing of the exchange of weight when he changes feet is perfect and there isn't another skater in the world (and there hasn't been for some time) that can skate like this.
The quality of his transitions and turns and crossovers etc. are a result of this skill, not just that he does them well in themselves like most skaters. That's what the judges apparently see, that most of us can't fully appreciate.

Are you a judge? So knowlegeable about skating but with only 42 posts on the forum since 2004. Hm, a mysterious expert that speaks out once in a while!!! I really appreciate your posts and sincerely hope that you can share your thoughts with us more often.

 

[seniorita]

AFAIK Kozuka and Chan are both always listed as either 5'6" or 5'7" so they are both small, but to me Kozuka actually gives the appearance of being taller than Patick because he is more slight in build and has longer limbs. In regular terms you could consider them dwarf like, but in the skating world they are pretty average. Rippon, Brezina, Lambiel are all around 5'7" (Plushy too....I don't believe he's 5'10")

Whats wrong with this board and the heights??? Seriously it must have been the 10th thread i read about skater's sizes. And what does it mean you dont believe Plushy is 5.10have you been next to him and you saw him shorter? Because I have and he is 1.78-1.79 for sure. I dont know if this is short or tall, but he is in this height since I know mine, and Lambiel is just a little shorter, aka more easy to hug

 

[sunny0760]

I also think that Carolina Kostner is the best ladies "skater" by far. But she can't always put it together either.

Interesting. Do you mean she has the best skating skills?

Well I understand SS and other areas of PCS are independent from jumps/spins/steps and Chan's SS is accepted by many people thanks to your explantion. But what's the reason that Kozuka and Abbott whom I think have very solid basic skills do not get the highest points for SS?

As for Carolina, she has a very good speed but sometimes she cannot control her speed hence inconsistent jump landings and often falls. When she was on, she could do huge, electrifying 3-3s and even a 3-3-3. Good old days. I have not seen her doing yet but she did a level 4 step too. Tremendous talent.

OTOH, Yuna can control her speed and transfer her speed to jumps. She is the (only) female skater who can do 3Lz with the male skaters' technique. She has never got level 4 steps but I think she has a very good SS too.

You told about Chan's SS... what about others?

 

[seniorita]

It just hit me that Joub with less mistakes than Chan in sp ended 16th or 18th after the short in Olympics. I m not saying Chan should end up 18th out of 12 and I know Chan has better SS than anyone else, but how much better?

 

[Bluebonnet]

I guess I should've put in a disclaimer: Canadian figure skating, their federation, what I read on the boards over the years, the 2002 Olympics, the 2010 Olympics, the originators of the COP. Of course this doesn't include all Canadians. *rolls eyes*

Thanks for the clearification. However, there are something worth to be pointed out:

1. In Vancouver Olympics, vast amount of spectators are from US like yourself who traveled to there just to watch the game since it's so close and easy. Therefore, to lay blame of favoritism towards Lysacek on Canadians are not fair. North Americans, if you will, including US will be more accurate. You were there, you probably remember the audience's reaction when Johnny Weir's marks were up. According to the audiences, Johnny's mark should be higher. Higher meant possibly pass Chan. At 2009 Worlds in LA, weren't there any favoritism on Lysacek from the audiences?:think:

2. Small population on a big land, Canada has only 1/10 of US population. It's natural for Canadians being assertive and holding heads up and bravely facing the next door and their only, giant and powerful neighbor. It's perfectly understandable when they over joyed by their athletes' success. It's impressive for Canadian's achievements with limited resources and everything.

3. How big a difference between Canadians and Americans? I know there are some, and I can point some of them out right away. But in general, they are North Americans. They think like North Americans, and they act like North Americans. How Canadians do mirror how Americans do, and vise versa. It's funny that some of the Americans constantly try to wash themselves clean and lay blames on Canadians. Think that they are different like angels and evils.

It's OT. So sorry. Back to Chan's hight and his extraordinary skating skills.

 

[bestskate8]

It's really quite ironic that I am a full-fledged fan of Kevin Reynolds, especially after the Olympics, when Canada has been on my **** list since the Olympics (even before then to tell the truth, but especially after the Olympics). I was there, in the audience, and I saw the favoritism exhibited toward Evan over Evgeni (you know that big bad Russian mentality that the North seems to have always had against Russia since I was a child; I can remember it back in school in the 70's/80's). I honestly thought Evgeni had won, though I knew it would be close, this is the way I felt, the music says it all ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHreMHtajKE

Lyrics to "Song to the Siren" by This Mortal Coil

Lol, I've come a long way since then, but the solipsism displayed by Patrick's fans (& Canadians in general) gets to me at times, especially the condescending tone...

That is scary

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Nadine. It’s all make sense now. It proves one more time, some people don’t care moral principles, when behind all this media, officials and more.
This not first time story, one of the worst one was Worlds 2001 dance competition and medal ceremony. Just bad.
Torino 2006 wasn’t like that at all. All skaters were treated with great applause and respect from audience and no media games.

 

[silverlake22]

Lambiel is taller than Brezina he´s almost 5´9 (1,75 cm), Plushenko and Joubert have around 5´10 (1,78 and 1,79), Verner is taller than Joubert (1,80 cm I would say), Abbott too, Lysacek is definitelty the tallest guy there.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GFqEzxqpd7c/0.jpg No way is Lambiel 5'9". He only looks to be at most 3 inches taller than Yuna, making him in between 5'7" and 5'8", the same size as Brezina, Rippon, and Buttle. A lot of ISU heights are inflated by a few cm at least. Also, Abbott's bio on icenetwork says he is 5'9", meaning Joubert would be about 5'8", which seems about right looking at this picture of him next to Yu-Na and David Wilson http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!...9397377&set=a.396799947377.176666.53417067377. Takahashi also looks shorter than Mao Asada most of the time, meaning his listing as 5'5" may be overstated. I tend to think most of these skaters are an inch or two shorter than what they are listed as on the internet, it's not that surprising, celebrities inflate their heights too.

Also, skates add about 3 inches and the camera about 10 pounds so most of these male figure skaters probably look really small/thin in person. Even Brian Joubert who looks like one of the more muscular guys out there is apparently is wiry in person.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Looking at the competition report card, you can tell by looking at the skating skills mark versus the technical marks who was a strong skater that did not skate well, and who was a weaker skater that had a great day technically. Sometimes one beats the other and visa versa. It depends on how the points add up.

You seem to be saying that the competition was judged on the Tech and separately, on the Skating Skills. And that none of the other Components matter in the total score. Should not at least Musicality be included? It is an innate quality that a skater brings to the competition. Otherwise why should music count if it is not used according to its own rules of music.

I, for one, do believe that tech and musicality are vastly different and competitions should show separate and distinct contests for each.

But never underestimate that skating skills mark. That is what the judges really think of the skaters' ability, whether or not they landed any or all of their jumps.

So what is the point of judging the value of the elements?

It is said that Chan has the transitions. What is the transition? - It is one-two extra rotations or some simple steps on two feet. So if someone had a transition but failed to complete the jump that followed it - how could he be marked higher than a skater who had no transition but landed the quad?
You're right transitions are turns and steps between elements, but that catagory also takes into account how well they are done. Did the skater step from a clean back outside edge completely to a clean forward outside edge? Or was it just a vague backward step to a vague forward step? etc. It takes a highly trained eye to see this. Some combinations of transitions are much more difficult than others and all are more difficult with speed, like anything. And you are also absolutely right that the jumps should be completed as well. Put it all together and you have the perfect skater! I think we may never see that!
I also think that Carolina Kostner is the best ladies "skater" by far. But she can't always put it together either.

In the case of Chan many of his defenders went to the Skating Skills component to justify his win, so maybe your negating the other components is true, i.e., only Skating Skills matter in the PC scores. For me Skating Skills are no more than 20% of the PC, and they are, like the 6.0system, no more than opinions. Opinions are based on Nationalities, favorites, and past performances with a little bit of skating knowledge.

If Chan had had the best skating skills that evening, were all the other skaters in that competition totally lacking in skating skills? I think not. Splatting on the ice is not what I would call good skating skills.

 

[ciocio]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GFqEzxqpd7c/0.jpg No way is Lambiel 5'9". He only looks to be at most 3 inches taller than Yuna, making him in between 5'7" and 5'8", the same size as Brezina, Rippon, and Buttle. A lot of ISU heights are inflated by a few cm at least. Also, Abbott's bio on icenetwork says he is 5'9", meaning Joubert would be about 5'8",QUOTE]

I don´t know how tall is Lambiel in ft, I´m 1,70 (5´7) and Lambiel is clearly taller than me. I´ve said around 1,75 (5´9?) because the difference is visible, it´s not 1 or 2 cm. :scratch:. Anyway he can be shorter than 5´8

 

[seniorita]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GFqEzxqpd7c/0.jpg No way is Lambiel 5'9". He only looks to be at most 3 inches taller than Yuna

I should have hugged Yuna then

It is strange to debate something that just needs an IKEA measurement tape or just to watch them live but Lambiel is taller than Brezina unless Brezina grew up more since Europeans.
It is Kozuka < Brezina < Lambiel=Weir< Plushenko< Joubert<<<<<<<<Lysacek.

 

[silverlake22]

I should have hugged Yuna then

It is strange to debate something that just needs an IKEA measurement tape or just to watch them live but Lambiel is taller than Brezina unless Brezina grew up more since Europeans.
It is Kozuka < Brezina < Lambiel=Weir< Plushenko< Joubert<<<<<<<<Lysacek.

That pretty much says it all. Brezina only turned 20 recently though so he might be still growing.

Back on topic, I don't see what is so amazing about Chan's transitions. Skating skills, yes, speed, yes, spins, yes, but transitions? He doesn't seem to have any more or better transitions than most of his competitors...

 

[trains]

You seem to be saying that the competition was judged on the Tech and separately, on the Skating Skills. And that none of the other Components matter in the total score. Should not at least Musicality be included? It is an innate quality that a skater brings to the competition. Otherwise why should music count if it is not used according to its own rules of music.
Of course each of the components is judged and counted. I was discussing skating skills only.
Here are competition report cards. This is what the skaters receive after the competition. The first one happens to be Tomas Verner, but only for an example. You can see how all the components are evaluated, and the technical score, element by element, is added together.
http://www.skatecanada-centralontario.com/Irma/Octoberfest 2010/smde.pdf

 

[Dodhiyel]

In the Short Program protocols, it shows that Patrick Chan got a final score of 7.75 for Performance/Execution.

He did not just have three falls; the third fall was during *footwork*.

The lowest mark any judge gave him for P/E was a 7.00. All the other judges gave him marks higher than that, and one judge even gave him 8.00. No way is that following the supposed rules. An 8.00 on P/E for three falls, one of which was in footwork? On that day, Patrick surely deserved no more than 6.00 for Performance/Execution. He did not execute well at all. That's the true description of what he did; he executed his programme poorly. I would have given him a 5.00. If he's not primarily a jumper, okay; but he has said much about how he concentrates on his footwork. It did not show in that performance. It was a *sloppy* performance, but it was not marked as such.

The new system, CoP/IJS, is touted as fair and purely arithmetic, unbiased, etc. Patrick Chan's Short Program at Skate Canada demonstrates that it is not necessarily fair, not necessarily unbiased, and above all, not honest.

 

[blair]

Are you a judge? So knowlegeable about skating but with only 42 posts on the forum since 2004. Hm, a mysterious expert that speaks out once in a while!!! I really appreciate your posts and sincerely hope that you can share your thoughts with us more often.

Why does one need to be a frequent poster on a message board in order to be knowledgeable on a given subject? I seem to detect a note of unwarranted sarcasm in your post. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm no knowledge expert on sarcasm or anything.

I do, however, agree with trains original post.

 

[gkelly]

In the Short Program protocols, it shows that Patrick Chan got a final score of 7.75 for Performance/Execution.

He did not just have three falls; the third fall was during *footwork*.

The lowest mark any judge gave him for P/E was a 7.00. All the other judges gave him marks higher than that, and one judge even gave him 8.00. No way is that following the supposed rules. An 8.00 on P/E for three falls, one of which was in footwork?

Where in the actual 2010-11 rules does it say anything about how falls are supposed to affect the Performance/Execution score or how when each fall occurs is to be considered?

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-153889-171105-nav-list,00.html
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-152055-169271-nav-list,00.html

Back in the first year or so of the new judging system, there was indeed a rule or guideline that judges were supposed to one point from Performance/Execution for each fall. But they didn't do it consistently (there was no way to tell whether they were doing it at all, but in most cases apparently not), so the rule was changed so that the tech panel would deduct one point from the total score for each fall. The judges have the option to reflect falls in the P/E score or any of the other component scores, but they are not required to do so.

Here are the guidelines for marking program components:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

Notice that there is not a single word about falls.

There is a word about "clarity of movement." That tends to be lacking during a fall or other gravity-related error. But how would that affect the score for a skater with especially good clarity for most of the program, aside from a couple of seconds here and there during technical errors, vs. a skater who makes no outright errors but is less precise in blade placement and/or body alignment throughout the whole program?

Each judge would have to balance that out for each individual performance. But a judge who ignores the rest of the program and the written Performance/Execution criteria to judge that component primarily on the number of errors would be the one who would be ignoring the rules.

So the real question is how did those falls affect the skater's physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement? the carriage? the style/personality? the clarity of movement? variety and contrast? projection?

Maybe most of those qualities went out the window for a couple of seconds during and after each fall, maybe a total of 10 seconds out of approximately 2:50. How about the other 2:40?

The new system, CoP/IJS, is touted as fair and purely arithmetic, unbiased, etc.

Well, obviously it's not purely arithmetic. There's always still judgment involved.

 

[Phoenix347]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GFqEzxqpd7c/0.jpg No way is Lambiel 5'9". He only looks to be at most 3 inches taller than Yuna, making him in between 5'7" and 5'8", the same size as Brezina, Rippon, and Buttle. A lot of ISU heights are inflated by a few cm at least. Also, Abbott's bio on icenetwork says he is 5'9", meaning Joubert would be about 5'8", which seems about right looking at this picture of him next to Yu-Na and David Wilson http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!...9397377&set=a.396799947377.176666.53417067377. Takahashi also looks shorter than Mao Asada most of the time, meaning his listing as 5'5" may be overstated. I tend to think most of these skaters are an inch or two shorter than what they are listed as on the internet, it's not that surprising, celebrities inflate their heights too.

Also, skates add about 3 inches and the camera about 10 pounds so most of these male figure skaters probably look really small/thin in person. Even Brian Joubert who looks like one of the more muscular guys out there is apparently is wiry in person.

I think Yuna and Michelle might be wearing heels... that's all I'm saying...