How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

[ImaginaryPogue]

Send the 9th and 10th place finishers. Clearly they need more experience.

More seriously, though, how much does a federation benefit from the mythical three spots? Does it help the sport's development in any way?

 

[R.D.]

...I assume you are looking at a scenario in which the medalist are too young to worlds - like in 2008 and the committee would have to decide between a fifth place Gilles or a sixth place Nagasu.

No...not necessarily. But the idea is the same.

Mathman wondered whether the committee regretted its decision to skip over Hacker. I replied that if they had sent Hacker over a former world champion and lost the three spots they would have never heard the end of it and everyone would have assumed that Kimmie would have skated well enough to earn the spots.

Ah, now here you bring up a really good point. Just like some people assumed that Zhang would have skated well enough in 2009 to earn us 3 Oly spots if they sent her over Czisny. And I told these posters, no, not necessarily- although that may have been our strongest team at the time, there are no guarantees.

In Meissner's defense, it should be pointed out that she WAS the highest placed American of the team consisting of her, Wagner and Liang. So even though her struggles continued, she did better than the other two did. Could Hacker have placed in the top 10? Of course, either way we were going to lose 3 spots anyway. Actually I was a tad surprised that Meissner didn't W/D and let Hacker go anyway.

But seriously - Kimmie's sub-par performance at nationals, not her previous international record - turned out to be pretty good predictor for how she would do at worlds, unfortunately.

To tie this in to what we've been discussing, it's all about SHOWING IMPROVEMENT as I was talking about earlier. Unfortunately for Meissner it was the opposite- she got worse as the season progressed. So it wasn't a shocker to me.

 

[Layfan]

Send the 9th and 10th place finishers. Clearly they need more experience.

More seriously, though, how much does a federation benefit from the mythical three spots? Does it help the sport's development in any way?

Well.... if the USA hadn't had three spots at the Olympics in 2002 there would have been no Sarah Hughes

So I can certainly see why the federation would rather have its spot back.

But in essence, I agree with the point you are hinting at - is that blessed third spot SO000 important that we have to do all sort of speculative somersaults to come up with a team that might be slightly better than another? I say no.

At this point, what good would a third ladies spot do anyhow? It'd be nice for the third skater but it probably wouldn't considerably improve the USA's chances of medaling. Last year we would have had Rachael, Mirai and Ashley. Instead of two ladies with only an outside chance of medaling, who would have had three. Very nice for Ashley but from the a USA competitive point of view - big whoop.

Unfortunately, it's not 2002 when the third US lady was considered a medal favorite.

Our current ladies will get the three spots back when they deserve it. I admit I can't get too worked up over it...

 

[FlattFan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j21oQZepFuA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Here's another take at Rachael's FS at the Olympics. These commentators saw the replay and thought everything was clean.

They said other girls "let [the jumps] happen" Rachael "make [the jumps] happen" Yeah, whatever that means. They also said her interpretation was quite good. Before the score was read, they said she should be in the lead and set the standard for the rest of the evening. Rachael skated after Laura Lepisto. People were booing the score. Without the 2 random downgraded on the flips and the non-call on Mirai's flutzes, Rachael should place higher than Mirai at the Olympics. [snip]

 

[janetfan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j21oQZepFuA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Here's another take at Rachael's FS at the Olympics. These commentators saw the replay and thought everything was clean.

They said other girls "let [the jumps] happen" Rachael "make [the jumps] happen" Yeah, whatever that means. They also said her interpretation was quite good. Before the score was read, they said she should be in the lead and set the standard for the rest of the evening. Rachael skated after Laura Lepisto. People were booing the score. Without the 2 random downgraded on the flips and the non-call on Mirai's flutzes, Rachael should place higher than Mirai at the Olympics and janetfan should shut up about it.

Sorry flattfan, but the judges disagree with you about the Olympics and Worlds. At both events they decided Mirai skated better than Rachael.

At Natls last season the judges decided Rachael skated better than Mirai.

At the GP this season the judges have decided Alissa's best was better than Rachael's best.

I look forward to Natls in January. If Rachael finishes 1 or 2 then I want her named to the Natl team. I feel that way about all of the skaters.

If Rachael finishes third I don't think she deserves to be on the Natl team. I feel the same way about the others including Mirai.
No favoritism - just competition. Let them skate for it.

 

[Mathman]

To tie this in to what we've been discussing,...

R.D., I can't tell from your posts what you really think about the question of this thread. Which of these positions (if any) do you support?

(a) The USFSA should send the top finishers at nationals to Worlds.

(b) The USFSA should come up with a new set of criteria which gives points also for placement at other events like the GP Finals or last year's Worlds.

(c) The committee should decide who to put on the worlds team.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

With all that I am reading, I now consider Rachael and underdog. It's like anyone but Rachael. It's a funny attitude because those same people who also prefer the National results only, are giving Rachael an excellent chance to do well at Nats and she probably will go to Worlds. I don't normally pick, but I do see Rachael on the Podium at Nats.

Regardless of the Players, has anyone decided what is the purpose of sending anyone by any rule-of-thumb, to the Worlds? I mean like, it is a Federation thing to make the decision on who goes. What would be the purpose for a Federation to make its own decision? Would it be for prestige? Is it not in the interest of the skater? Will a trial skate be a better decision for developing the Team? Other than conspiracy theories do we have an answer?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Our current ladies will get the three spots back when they deserve it. I admit I can't get too worked up over it...

Yep. Then again, as a Canadian fan, we're happy to keep two spots as it's generally been difficult (for ladies). And now moreso than in a long while. Bright side is that I don't care about ladies skating very much.

 

[Tonichelle]

Well.... if the USA hadn't had three spots at the Olympics in 2002 there would have been no Sarah Hughes

So I can certainly see why the federation would rather have its spot back.

But in essence, I agree with the point you are hinting at - is that blessed third spot SO000 important that we have to do all sort of speculative somersaults to come up with a team that might be slightly better than another? I say no.

At this point, what good would a third ladies spot do anyhow? It'd be nice for the third skater but it probably wouldn't considerably improve the USA's chances of medaling. Last year we would have had Rachael, Mirai and Ashley. Instead of two ladies with only an outside chance of medaling, who would have had three. Very nice for Ashley but from the a USA competitive point of view - big whoop.

Unfortunately, it's not 2002 when the third US lady was considered a medal favorite.

Our current ladies will get the three spots back when they deserve it. I admit I can't get too worked up over it...

Completely agree!

 

[PolymerBob]

So what do you do if someone like Gilles places over someone like Nagasu and the former is in line to go to worlds?

Send Gilles. IMHO you have to have rules. Leaving it up to a vote on the Internet skating forums...

OK, but my belief is that Alexe will have to do more to win than Marai will. International results will put Mirai above Alexe with equal performances.

 

[Layfan]

With all that I am reading, I now consider Rachael and underdog. It's like anyone but Rachael. It's a funny attitude because those same people who also prefer the National results only, are giving Rachael an excellent chance to do well at Nats and she probably will go to Worlds. I don't normally pick, but I do see Rachael on the Podium at Nats.

Regardless of the Players, has anyone decided what is the purpose of sending anyone by any rule-of-thumb, to the Worlds? I mean like, it is a Federation thing to make the decision on who goes. What would be the purpose for a Federation to make its own decision? Would it be for prestige? Is it not in the interest of the skater? Will a trial skate be a better decision for developing the Team? Other than conspiracy theories do we have an answer?

I cannot think of one single poster who has argued that if Rachael wins nationals or is second she should not go to worlds.

On the other hand, some posters HAVE tried to make that argument about Alissa. If anyone is the underdog it's Alissa. Some people can't seem to forgive Alissa's 11th place finish in 2009 but are ready to overlook Rachael's 9thp place finish. It is true that Rachael is not a lot of people's favorite skater but I can't think of anyone who would be against sending her to worlds if she places 1 or 2.

Funnily enough, Alissa and Rachael are both our best performing Americans so far. Go Alissa and Rachael! And I would be happy if both got to go to worlds again. If they skate well at worlds they will get the third spot back no problem.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I cannot think of one single poster who has argued that if Rachael wins nationals or is second she should not go to worlds.

Neither can I. The point was the Nats will decide, and she is good at Nats. So if anyone is anti-Rachael, don't be surprised at the results.

 

[Layfan]

I don't think anyone will be surprised if Rachael successfully defends her national title. Given Mirai's so-so season so far, I think Rachael goes into Nats and the favorite, once again.

 

[FlattFan]

Sorry flattfan, but the judges disagree with you about the Olympics and Worlds. At both events they decided Mirai skated better than Rachael.

At Natls last season the judges decided Rachael skated better than Mirai.

At the GP this season the judges have decided Alissa's best was better than Rachael's best.

I look forward to Natls in January. If Rachael finishes 1 or 2 then I want her named to the Natl team. I feel that way about all of the skaters.

If Rachael finishes third I don't think she deserves to be on the Natl team. I feel the same way about the others including Mirai.
No favoritism - just competition. Let them skate for it.

It's not just me, you know. Case in point, the video clip I posted. At the Olympics, they also decided Mirai miraculously fixed her flutz overnight.
I want nothing but fair judging and I believe Rachael got the short end of the stick all the time.

If Rachael finishes third FAIRLY and RIGHTFULLY, I don't think she deserves to be on the Natl team either.

 

[FlattFan]

On the other hand, some posters HAVE tried to make that argument about Alissa. If anyone is the underdog it's Alissa. Some people can't seem to forgive Alissa's 11th place finish in 2009 but are ready to overlook Rachael's 9thp place finish.

There's a difference, Alissa did well in the LP and placed 11th. Rachael bombed, had several random downgrades, and still placed 9th.

 

[Nadine]

Here's the latest on Rachael's injury: http://www.universalsports.com/news/article/newsid=504615.html#five+questions+with+rachael+flatt

I'm still a bit unsettled about it because its not even been a month since Skate America, and she was feeling the pain even before then. Yet then again we are talking about figure skaters and IIRC a famous f.s. once said if she doesn't feel pain when she gets up in the morning then something's wrong. Pain comes with the territory. Still its worrisome because you don't want it to end up in a career-ending injury (e.g. Tara Lipinski/Deanna Stellato/Michelle Kwan/Jennifer Kirk/NNN hip injury & subsequent surgery). Too many great skaters have been taken out of the game because of repetitive overuse injuries from just skating way too much. The only exception (knock on wood) I can think of is Evgeni Plushenko, but even he stated he needed to take pain medication during the whole 2009/2010 Olympic season he came back.

I recall the season Sasha Cohen took off due to the spinal injury she incurred from all those pretzel positions she used to do, but thank goodness she listened to her doctor, took the season off, and came back better than ever, which included a silver medal at Nationals, and coming in 4th at her very first Olympics in 2002, not to mention hanging tough for another 4 yrs. to earn the Olympic Silver Medal in 2006. And another happy story was Michelle Kwan's successful comeback during the 1997/1998 Olympic season wherein she had to take the entire GP season off due to her foot being in a cast from sustaining a stress fracture. Nevertheless she came roaring back to win 1998 US Nationals in stunning fashion & also win the Olympic Silver Medal one month later. ^)

Still, that's only a handful of happy stories, too many have been taken out of the game permanently, as I mentioned up above. If one starts having too many injuries that's when I worry, like the back, knee, hip, etc. Case in point Kimmie Meissner, whom had to withdraw from 2009 US Nationals due to a hip flexor injury, then last summer she had to withdraw from the entire Olympic season due to both severe tendonitis & partial relocation to her right kneecap, and it doesn't look like she's coming back, unfortunately. That's why I start to worry if one begins to have too many injuries, especially a *recurring* injury, which sometimes will take you completely out of the game if the skater continually has to take time off (ala an entire season), as in the end s/he will be too far behind to ever catch up again (e.g. Kimmie Meissner).

And Rachael's not the only one, I'm still wondering about those that have had to actually take time off from skating either in the past or now because of an injury...

Here's WISHING THEY ALL STAY HEALTHY, INJURY FREE, AND LAND EVERYTHING THEY HAVE PLANNED!

 

[silverlake22]

There's a difference, Alissa did well in the LP and placed 11th. Rachael bombed, had several random downgrades, and still placed 9th.

Well I wouldn't say Rachael BOMBED, but she did make some big mistakes and had some random downgrades. As for Alissa, she definitely bombed the SP at 09 Worlds, and her FS there was good for her, but she still only had 3 triples ratified, so really I'd say their performances were pretty comparable overall - with Alissa's SP being a little worse than Rachael's and Rachael's FS being a little worse than Alissa's. But Rachael still managed to finish 9th and not 11th.

 

[Layfan]

There's a difference, Alissa did well in the LP and placed 11th. Rachael bombed, had several random downgrades, and still placed 9th.

Thank you for backing up the whole point of my post - which is that it's Alissa and not Rachael who is the underdog here.

 

[FlattFan]

Thank you for backing up the whole point of my post - which is that it's Alissa and not Rachael who is the underdog here.

If Alissa is not in the race, how can she be the underdog? The gold is between Rachael and Mirai and people are saying Rachael is the underdog for the title, again.

 

[R.D.]

Of course between the two of them Czisny would be the underdog. Rachel is the defending national champ after all.