Grand Prix finals: “major championship” or “who cares?”

[gkelly]

I do care about the GP. It's the only complete international event before the Worlds,

Well, it's not really complete.

Some good skaters can't get GP assignments/invitations because they weren't able to earn high enough placements/world rankings last year. In some cases that's because they didn't have opportunities last year -- e.g., new pair and dance teams, skaters switching nationalities, 14-year-olds.

Each individual GP event has only about one-third of the top skaters participating in the series. And the final has only six qualifiers per event -- sometimes the alternates are just as good as the last qualifiers but suffered from competing in stronger regular season events. E.g., Arakawa in 2005-06.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's up to the skater, IMHO.

But I think the problem with the Grand Prix in general is that it's no way connected to the later championship events, so the skaters may see it as a sort of "practice run" before the tone changes. If the ISU wants to increase the GPF's prestige, they need to connect it to Worlds/Euros/4CCs somehow. How about automatic qualification to worlds for the winners? Not saying it should be done, just suggesting.

Not for me the Isu to connect the GPs to 4CC or Euros. Those two events are so limited in participants and not at all connected to the complete Worlds.

How many skaters refuse to go to the GPs? eh? so that's not a good reason. The Skaters are trying out the international judges, the international venue, and what to work on for March. They are only interested in their Nats if it were the sole reason for getting to the Worlds. Only one country, I know of, relies on their Nats, and not on selecting the strongest skater but to be fair.

 

[janetfan]

Not for me the Isu to connect the GPs to 4CC or Euros. Those two events are so limited in participants and not at all connected to the complete Worlds.

How many skaters refuse to go to the GPs? eh? so that's not a good reason. The Skaters are trying out the international judges, the international venue, and what to work on for March. They are only interested in their Nats if it were the sole reason for getting to the Worlds. Only one country, I know of, relies on their Nats, and not on selecting the strongest skater but to be fair.

Tell you what - you make some good points.
Why not examine what you are saying a little more closely.

Let's take last season - since it was an Olympic season it was very important, no?

What did USA do wrong last season? :think:
Did we send the wrong Men and wrong Ladies to the Olympics?

You better believe Natls - as John Nicks said was "the Olympic qualifier." Good old Mr Nicks

Please tell us how USA got it wrong and what changes YOU would have made?
I look forward to your reply and can only see an argument being made about the Pairs.

For the record, I think we sent the right Pairs, because they were all pretty equal and skating for it seemed the fairest way.

 

[Mathman]

If there's one thing I've learned in school, it's that traditions are invented (Hobsbawm et al.)

I love this forum!

As embarrassed as I am to reveal my ignorance regarding this greatly honored twentieth century Marxist historian, I had to look up what he had to say about "Invented Traditions." I will save you all the search.

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/citd/holtorf/6.3.html

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well, it's not really complete.

Some good skaters can't get GP assignments/invitations because they weren't able to earn high enough placements/world rankings last year. In some cases that's because they didn't have opportunities last year -- e.g., new pair and dance teams, skaters switching nationalities, 14-year-olds.

They would be international. The GP is as completely international as it gets. And it is an international Sport. Who has to worry about their personal lives? The series starts in September - 6 months after the last Worlds. Should we ask the ISU to pospone the Event or Cancel it because of personal reasons of some switchers?

Each individual GP event has only about one-third of the top skaters participating in the series. And the final has only six qualifiers per event -- sometimes the alternates are just as good as the last qualifiers but suffered from competing in stronger regular season events. E.g., Arakawa in 2005-06.

The Worlds has at least 16 skaters which are 16 too many (except for money). The remaining 14, I betcha, will enter the GP events unless there is a personal problem with a Federation.

I don't think we know exactly why a skater can skate well in one comp and poorly in another including Arakawa. Let's check out Rachael in the LP. In the SP she skated poorly - not just the flubs but overall. She was what I call 'a bad hair day'. I believe something was bothering her but I do not know what.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Tell you what - you make some good points.
Why not examine what you are saying a little more closely.

Let's take last season - since it was an Olympic season it was very important, no?

What did USA do wrong last season? :think:
Did we send the wrong Men and wrong Ladies to the Olympics?

Please tell us how USA got it wrong and what changes YOU would have made?
I look forward to your reply and can only see an argument being made about the Pairs.

I would not have made any changes. It worked out well with last years GPs, too. No? However, the Team we send was not the best Team ever. It may not be this year either regardless of method to select the Team. but I see us strong in Ice Dance this season. I don't see us that strong in Ladies. Looking for Armin to skate well at Nats. and a good Pairs competition at Nats although it will not be easy in the Worlds.

I'm just not in favor of forming a Team based on fairness. Just talent. If both that is all the better. Leaving a talent out I cringe.

I'm not a national Fan but I like comps so I will be watching it - maybe LIVE if I am up to it.

 

[mskater93]

I would not have made any changes. It worked out well with last years GPs, too. No? However, the Team we send was not the best Team ever. It may not be this year either regardless of method to select the Team. but I see us strong in Ice Dance this season. I don't see us that strong in Ladies. Looking for Armin to skate well at Nats. and a good Pairs competition at Nats although it will not be easy in the Worlds.

I'm just not in favor of forming a Team based on fairness. Just talent. If both that is all the better. Leaving a talent out I cringe.

I'm not a national Fan but I like comps so I will be watching it - maybe LIVE if I am up to it.

If I follow your logic from multiple threads, you would have sent Ashley Wagner to the Olympics/Worlds since she got a lucky draw in her GP events and ended up in the finals and didn't bite it too hard (4th). If that's the case, which of the two ladies on the team would you have left home? (Don't get me wrong, I adore Ashley's skating, but I think the top two at Nationals ended up with the best results at the Olympics that you could have expected). If that's not the case, why constantly put forth arguments related to GP results?

Just because it is not the strongest team ever, doesn't mean it's not the strongest team of available talent who are currently eligible to skate in that competition (meaning that maybe a 14 year old is a better talent, but under current rules, they are unable to skate at Senior Championship events). Sorry, disagree with you there.

If we were to only place the most TALENTED skaters on the team, Rohene Ward would have been on the World team about 7 or 8 times as (in many people's estimation, including many USFS officials) he was the most talented skater. He was also the most psychologically fragile and/or most poorly conditioned athlete at Nationals (as it was often discussed that he rarely did a full program run through in practice). If Ward was on the team, how would that team have done? Would they have done as well as Lysacek, Weir, and Weiss?

Also, I believe Alissa Czisny is one of the most talented skaters ever to put on a pair of skates and I've had the pleasure of sharing practice ice with her on occasion. Does that make her a tough competitor? Not usually (unfortunately).

Was Evan Lysacek the most talented skater in the last quad? Most people would tell you no, but he has always worked harder than most and never gave up which led to an Olympic Gold Medal (along with a strange confluence of peripheral events). He is also a mentally tough competitor.

Should Orser have won more than one World title and an Olympic Gold Medal? Probably, but he was another one who had a hard time dealing with the mental toughness side of things...

Of the current American ladies, it's widely thought that Nagasu is the most talented, but has she learned to work for it yet? Is she able to withstand the success? Does she do what Mr. Carroll asks of her in practice ALL THE TIME?

While the GPs are nice, it's difficult for an up and coming skater to get an opportunity to skate in them (like the situation of a 15 year old getting that opportunity when they were not sent to JWs the previous year because three senior (by national test level) ladies went instead and so have no world ranking standings) and new pairs/dance teams do not get invites either. This is why so many people feel like they should have to skate for it at Nationals where the playing field is level.

 

[janetfan]

I would not have made any changes. It worked out well with last years GPs, too. No? However, the Team we send was not the best Team ever. It may not be this year either regardless of method to select the Team. but I see us strong in Ice Dance this season. I don't see us that strong in Ladies. Looking for Armin to skate well at Nats. and a good Pairs competition at Nats although it will not be easy in the Worlds.

I'm just not in favor of forming a Team based on fairness. Just talent. If both that is all the better. Leaving a talent out I cringe.

I'm not a national Fan but I like comps so I will be watching it - maybe LIVE if I am up to it.

OK, good answer.
But with all of the posts about how to pick a Natl team - I still have not seen anybody come up with a better or more fair way than Natls.

If our Ladies have struggled recently compared to past standards I have yet to see conclusive proof - or even a decent theory about why we are sending the wrong girls.

Even casual fans can see the rest of the world - particulalry Asia has better skaters at the moment. Nobody who follows skating thinks we had two girls besides Mirai and Rachael who could have done any better last season.

Can you address that?
What if Alissa makes the podium tomorrow? I think she can miss two jumps at this point and still win a GPF medal.

My hope is that she will show what she is capable of.........which is miles better than most of our other Ladies.

Is it fair to discard Alissa because a "self-proclaimed non-fan" remembers when she faltered in the past? Is skating a competitive sport where the results count or would it be better if it was a little fan club that discarded competitions that turned out differently than what they predicted and indeed hoped for?

Phooey on that!

I am happy to see Alissa skate so well. I have no idea if she can do it again tomorrow. But anybody can see that at her best she is a podium skater.

Rachael did not do so well today. I still think she deserves fair consideration at Natls. For all I know she is not 100% - but I am sure she is a good competitior and will skate better tomorrow. Not sure if she can pull off a medal - but so what. I want to see Mirai and Ashley in the mix. A clean Agnes can jump all of our gilrs off the ice.

It is so unclear to me who the two best are and that is why I like the idea of letting a competition decide it. What could be more FAIR than that :think:

 

[R.D.]

Is it fair to discard Alissa because a "self-proclaimed non-fan" like RD remembers when she faltered in the past? Is skating a competitive sport where the results count or would it be better if it was a little fan club that discarded competitions that turned out differently than what they predicted and indeed hoped for?

Again, in regards to Alyssa, the results of the GPF await us. She has a chance to prove a lot of people wrong tomorrow if she can actually do a clean FS and win a medal. This would be a good test of her current mental ability I think. She is in position for a medal, but will she focus on the task at hand, or fold like she often has done in the past?

 

[janetfan]

Again, in regards to Alyssa, the results of the GPF await us. She has a chance to prove a lot of people wrong tomorrow if she can actually do a clean FS and win a medal. This would be a good test of her current mental ability I think. She is in position for a medal, but will she focus on the task at hand, or fold like she often has done in the past?

and I await your analysis about Flatt - which you are unusually quiet about? :think:

 

[R.D.]

and I await your analysis about Flatt - which you are unusually quiet about? :think:

Actually, in my original post I had a blurb about Flatt, but I removed it because I realized she wasn't relevant to that post. But since you ask, I'll paste it here

ETA: oops, can't get it back. Anyway, I said that one off-performance can be forgiven, but a last-place finish would leave a bad taste in one's mouth. Remember, it's about showing improvement. There's still the Nationals- I'll await the final results of the GPF to make a definitive statement.

 

[janetfan]

Actually, in my original post I had a blurb about Flatt, but I removed it because I realized she wasn't relevant to that post. But since you ask, I'll paste it here

ETA: oops, can't get it back. Anyway, I said that one off-performance can be forgiven, but a last-place finish would leave a bad taste in one's mouth. Remember, it's about showing improvement. There's still the Nationals- I'll await the final results of the GPF to make a definitive statement.

So for the record - you consider that Rachael was "on" last season at Worlds? Ninth place for Rachael is considered "on" in your book, but 11th for Alissa is "off."

In my wildest thoughts I can't ever consider your opinions as neutral.

I don't care if you have favorites or not - but as mathman just said you sure paint a very cloudy picture. :yes:

 

[R.D.]

So for the record - you consider that Rachael was "on" last season at Worlds? Ninth place for Rachael is considered "on" in your book, but 11th for Alissa is "off."

I NEVER SAID THAT!!!

In my wildest thoughts I can't ever consider your opinions as neutral.

I don't care if you have favorites or not but as mathman just said you sure paint a cloudy picture. :yes:

I don't aim to be "neutral". That's impossible, no one can be truly neutral. I've said many times in recent years that I have my preferences and opinions just like you guys. Only difference is I don't consider myself anyone's fan, therefore I don't have an agenda to protect anybody. I try to give everyone a fair shot. Even if it sometimes seems like I'm down on one skater- I'm still waiting for a good American lady to rise to the occasion.

 

[janetfan]

I NEVER SAID THAT!!! NEVER!!!!



I don't aim to be "neutral". That's impossible, no one can be truly neutral. I've said many times in recent years that I have my preferences and opinions just like you guys. Only difference is I don't consider myself a fan of any skater, so I'm not overly protective of anyone. I try to give everyone a fair shot. Even if it sometimes seems like I'm down on one skater- I'm still waiting for a good American lady to rise to the occasion.

RD, sorry but you clearly stated that Rachael's "one off performance" can be forgiven.
I simply pointed out that others who are more fair- minded might remember Rachael has had more than "one off performance."

Don't get angry - but consider what you said.
I agree with you that we have to see what happens tomorrow.
I still say Natls should be the major factor and am sure you will eagerly agree with me after Alissa medals tomorrow.

 

[R.D.]

RD, sorry but you clearly stated that Rachael's "one off performance" can be forgiven.

I was talking about THIS SEASON. This was her first significantly off performance THIS SEASON. IF she redeems herself in the long we can let it slide but if not, and she finishes last (or wherever), then it doesn't bode well. Again though, there is Nats.

I simply pointed out that others who are more fair- minded might remember Rachael has had more than "one off performance."

In the big picture, yes she has had more than one "off-performance". Which skater hasn't? I don't care who you are.

Remember, consistency does not mean batting 100%. That's IMPOSSIBLE. But if you can hit 4 out of 5, that's pretty damn good...even 3 out of 5 is respectable.

I agree with you that we have to see what happens tomorrow.
I still say Natls should be the major factor...

Now here you are right. Nats will put together all of the pieces.

...and am sure you will eagerly agree with me after Alissa medals tomorrow.

Careful you don't jinx her

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

msskater93 - I've tried to reply to your excellent post, but my wonky computer sends whatever I write off to cyberspace before I can hit the reply button. I will generalize and hope I can send that.

For me, there are skaters with talent only and others with consistency only. When they both get together we have the best one to send to Worlds. This year from what I've seen in the GPs and Final, show a strong cast of players from outside the USA. I've watched the improvement in Alissa this GP series and look forward to the Final for confirmation of her new found consistency. If she podiums, I am sold on her to Worlds. I will watch Rachael very carefully to see if she has a personal problem with this venue. Medals, for me, do not tell the whole story. (she looks, to me, that she has put on a few extra pounds. not good.)

One has to remember that the GPs and Final are midway between the 2011 Worlds and the 2012 Worlds. There was time to improve for all. Did it happen? The Nats may tell us more about Mirai, Wagner and Zhang. How much more, we have to analyze.

After all this computer trouble, I have to admit I am more interested in the Men's Division, but the US's best in not consistent.

 

[silverlake22]

Actually, in my original post I had a blurb about Flatt, but I removed it because I realized she wasn't relevant to that post. But since you ask, I'll paste it here

ETA: oops, can't get it back. Anyway, I said that one off-performance can be forgiven, but a last-place finish would leave a bad taste in one's mouth. Remember, it's about showing improvement. There's still the Nationals- I'll await the final results of the GPF to make a definitive statement.

Unfortunately, it looks like Rachael will have a tough time pulling herself out of 6th place looking at the points, although it is possible. But I do think that even if she does finish last, if she has a good FS and finishes say 3rd in that segment, then that would still look ok going into nationals. It would just sort of seem like she skated well in the FS but it wasn't enough to make up for her disastrous SP. Also where she's been injured, I don't think a 6th place finish her will really ruin her reputation going into nationals. Also I wonder if she will withdraw? It looked like she was in pain today, but knowing Rachael, she's prepared to fight.

 

[mskater93]

msskater93 - I've tried to reply to your excellent post, but my wonky computer sends whatever I write off to cyberspace before I can hit the reply button. I will generalize and hope I can send that.

For me, there are skaters with talent only and others with consistency only. When they both get together we have the best one to send to Worlds. This year from what I've seen in the GPs and Final, show a strong cast of players from outside the USA. I've watched the improvement in Alissa this GP series and look forward to the Final for confirmation of her new found consistency. If she podiums, I am sold on her to Worlds. I will watch Rachael very carefully to see if she has a personal problem with this venue. Medals, for me, do not tell the whole story. (she looks, to me, that she has put on a few extra pounds. not good.)

One has to remember that the GPs and Final are midway between the 2011 Worlds and the 2012 Worlds. There was time to improve for all. Did it happen? The Nats may tell us more about Mirai, Wagner and Zhang. How much more, we have to analyze.

After all this computer trouble, I have to admit I am more interested in the Men's Division, but the US's best in not consistent.

Do you also consider that Rachel had (has?) a foot injury which has caused her to miss valuable training time for this event and which may or may not still be affecting her ability to skate or that she may have changed her technique to compensate for the pain for a time and now she's having jump issues? Tendonitis is nothing to sneeze at and if she's in pain here or still recovering, it will throw off training etc. Her spins and stroking, too, seem to be off - slower than normal on both fronts.

Do you consider the fact that Alissa's second event was not so hot and luck of the draw got her to the final more so than anything else because her score from her second event at other events (like CoR) would have put her at about 5th and out of this event? What if Alissa skates poorly at Nationals and finishes, say, 7th and in the post event interview says she was so nervous because of her GP medal and the expectations? Hypothetically, would you still put her on the World team over Rachel and Ashley who (lets say) skate lights out at Nationals and beat the pants off everyone there? How about if Mirai comes in a close third to those two? Mirai beat Alissa in France already...

I suspect that any two of the top 6-7 ladies in the US can get the job done at Worlds (medal+top 10 or at least total 13 placements, even if it's 6+7) IF they skate their best at Worlds. The problem is, that's the BIG IF since they ALL lack consistency, even Rachel (judging from her SP this AM in China). Some appear to have focus problems when they are in an unexpectedly good position after SP (Mirai, Agnes), some have injury problems and have been or are recovering from them (Mirai and Rachel), some have tended to skate poor SP repeatedly (Ashley), some respond very poorly to pressure (Alissa). I would say Mirai or Alissa at 90%+ of their absolute best are medal threats at Worlds and Ashley, Rachel, Agnes, and Christina can all hit the 4-10 mark at their best (meaning stay vertical and no << calls and no more than two < calls) and with a great deal of help maybe podium. But any one of those ladies can melt down at any time and that's been the problem.

I say the same thing about Jeremy - he is a medal threat at 90%+ of his best but he makes stupid mistakes when he has pressure.

Can we hire a sports psychologist for the World team? I know Roslyn used to work with one to work through the pressure of expectation and it really helped her. Why aren't these inconsistent skaters already working with them?

 

[Mathman]

...my wonky computer sends whatever I write off to cyberspace before I can hit the reply button.

If you have an older operating system (like mine) that won't support the newest versions of web browsers, what seems to happen is that if someone else posts on a thread while you are in the middle of reply, you lose your post.

The only way I have found around this problem, if you want to write a lengthy reply, is to compose it in a separate word processing document, then copy and paste into the GS dialog box. (Either that or wait until no-one else is posting.

 

[Tonichelle]

The only way I have found around this problem, if you want to write a lengthy reply, is to compose it in a separate word processing document, then copy and paste into the GS dialog box. (Either that or wait until no-one else is posting.

it's actually good advice for anyone, you never know when your browser is going to wig out.