Grand Prix finals: “major championship” or “who cares?”

[seniorita]

I ll give it a try as Miss Know-it-all.. if you have Win 98 or ME normally you can use the versions of Firefox up to 2.0.0.20 with no problem. The best choice though is Opera browser that has a new release that supports Windows 98 (version 10.10).
Any of those two is much better than IE 6.0 I m guessing you use, not for forum only but for security reasons in case you use bank transfers, credit cards etc on line. There is also a patch called Kmeleon that you can install and your system will behave like Xp or newer version but it is more complicated, can explain it in pm.

If your pc explodes I take no responsibility.

 

[Mathman]

About the selection process for the U.S. representatives to Worlds (don't we already have a thread on that topic ), IMO the point that Joe is patiently making is quite sound.

Setting aside individuals, Joe's basic premise is that we should take into account all competitions, not just one. The Grand Prix and the especially the Grand Prix Finals tell us something about which skaters are likely to constitute the best Worlds team. From Nationals we learn something more -- and something different, since Mationals is a different kind of contest.

In this, the official rules of the USFSA concur. But in practice, the tradition of using Nationals placements as the only criterion overrides the official stated policy.

Joe's second point, as I understand it, is that placement alone is not the sole determinant of who the best skaters are. You can evaluate a skater's potential by observing her performance, regardless of placement.

All of this makes a lot of sense to me.

I still am on the other side of the debate, however. I do consider "fairness" to be very important. Plus, I do not have any particular confidence that "the committee" will come up with a better slate than 1 and 2 at nationals, no matter how long they study. Just my opinion.

Go Alissa!

 

[gkelly]

we learn something more -- and something different, since Mationals is a different kind of contest.

Is Mationals a national math contest?

In this, the official rules of the USFSA concur. But in practice, the tradition of using Nationals placements as the only criterion overrides the official stated policy.

Except Nationals placements have not historically been the only criterion. In the past 20 years I can think of 5 or 6 occasions when USFSA sent skaters to Worlds (or Olympics) after they withdrew from Nationals. It's primarily to open up the flexibility to use that option that the rules have been written to state that other results will be considered.

In the past 20 years, I can think of 2 occasions when a skater who competed at Nationals was left off the world team in favor of someone who also competed and placed behind them. We discussed those cases at length in the other thread. They were definitely exceptions and IMO shouldn't be considered precedents.

Anyway, was this thread intended to be about US team selection at all? Is there room for discussion of "who cares" about GP Finals from fans and skaters who have no connection to the US at all?

 

[Mathman]

Is there room for discussion of "who cares" about GP Finals from fans and skaters who have no connection to the US at all?

That was my hope, but we got a little bit derailed.

One suggestion has come up that we could increase the prestige of the Grand Prix by tying it to Worlds somehow -- like giving the GP Finals podium a free pass to Worlds outside the national quotas.

On reflection, I think this would not be such a good idea. I think that it would be better to continue to bolster the prestige of the GP series and its final as a major figure skating event in its own right. I believe that has already happened over the years and will continue.

Unfortunately, the only way to jump-start the reputation of the series and the desirability of winning would be to up the cash prizes. Since the cupboard is bare, we will have to rely on intangibles, like athlete's pride in wanting to stomp the other guy.

One thing in its favor is that the series does, by and large, attract the biggest names in the sport and the strongest overall competitive field.

 

[Nadine]

To answer the question posed in this thread, I'll pick "No, it's not a major championship". Seriously, in the grand scheme of things I've NEVER heard a skater announced as a GPF Champion. It's always by level of importance, which goes as follows:

Ladies & Gentlemen, would you please welcome to the ice ______ (fill-in name):

1.) the Olympic Gold, Silver, or Bronze Medalist
2.) the (fill-in year) World Champion, Silver Medalist, Bronze Medalist
3.) the (fill-in year) US National Champion, Silver Medalist, Bronze Medalist

Then the order of importance goes down from there. For Europeans, it would be European Gold, Silver, or Bronze Medalist in place of 3.) up above. And I guess if you don't qualify for any of the above, then next would be 4CC or such, but I honestly have never seen it go that low. To get a gig on SOI or something equally big, one must fulfill the criteria I mentioned up above (aka 1.) 2.) 3.).

That said, I suppose it's important enough for those just starting out or whom have yet to make a name for themselves internationally. It can get your name on the map. But for the more established skaters whom have already had great success on the international scene it isn't necessary (e.g. Evgeni Plushenko, Yuna Kim, Michelle Kwan). For these greats it's okay to skip the GPF and just focus on Worlds, as their standing won't be affected one way or another if they choose to skip the GPs, GPF, etc. Anyhow, that's jmho.

p.s. also, I recommend skipping the GPs & GPF to save on wear & tear of the body, of course if one can afford to (e.g. Yuna Kim), but if you can't so be it. For the latter you skate even if injured, sick, or broken. Like Bela Karolyi used to say to his gymnasts "if it's not bleeding, then nothing's wrong".

 

[seniorita]

As far as I know Michelle had skipped GPF 2 times at the end of her amateur(maybe one before also) and Plu one, they usually competed and had earned tone of medals there before starting skipping it.Yuna hasnt skip from 2006-2010 any.

Like Bela Karolyi used to say to his gymnasts "if it's not bleeding, then nothing's wrong".

With all respect Nadine this is not a quote to be proud of, I cringe of the thought of what he meant and the consequences of how he trained, and it is not all -especially health in long term-worth sacrificing for medals and national pride or whatever.

 

[ivy]

What would you want to see done differently?

They did try making the rules for the GP final different ca. 1999-2001, requiring two free programs (and no compulsory dances). The hope was that skaters would choreograph completely new programs to give audiences something different to watch. But very few of them did. Of those few, some ended up switching to the new program for the later part of the season or using the new GP program from one year as their long program for the following year.

But most of them just revived an old long program from the previous year or earlier.

There was also an elimination format where the top two going into the final round competed for gold vs. silver, third and fourth competed head to head for bronze, and fifth and sixth didn't get to skate the final round.

Those proved not to be very good ideas and were dropped, thankfully.

I'm not sure - I guess I'd just like it to have some intrinsic value and identity. The World Champ is the best all around skater.

For the Go series maybe allow fewer jumps and increase the value of the PCS so the GPF winner is the best "artisic" skater in the world or...

Make the short program worth more and the PSC worth less so the winner is the best "technical" skater in the world.

Actually earning berths to Worlds would give it some intrinsic value, espcially if it was an 'extra' slot, so your nat'l federation didn't have to count you in their 2 or 3. That works for me with out skaters having to tinker with their program.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If you have an older operating system (like mine) that won't support the newest versions of web browsers, what seems to happen is that if someone else posts on a thread while you are in the middle of reply, you lose your post.

The only way I have found around this problem, if you want to write a lengthy reply, is to compose it in a separate word processing document, then copy and paste into the GS dialog box. (Either that or wait until no-one else is posting.

Thanks MM. I'll try that tomorrow.

 

[Olympia]

As far as I know Michelle had skipped GPF 2 times at the end of her amateur(maybe one before also) and Plu one, they usually competed and had earned tone of medals there before starting skipping it.Yuna hasnt skip from 2006-2010 any.
With all respect Nadine this is not a quote to be proud of, I cringe of the thought of what he meant and the consequences of how he trained, and it is not all -especially health in long term-worth sacrificing for medals and national pride or whatever.

I sure agree with you about Karolyi, Seniorita. I had to stop watching gymnastics for awhile because I felt complicit in a terrible system. The girls all went and lived at the gym, so the only authority figure was the coach. They were all teeny-tiny, half-starved, and very young. And they did routines that could almost literally snap them in two.

I recall one or two skips of the GP circuit by Michelle. There were probably other times when she wanted to skip, and I think people came and begged her to attend, generally Skate America at least and then maybe Skate Canada, because she was a guaranteed audience magnet. Good sport that she was, I think she agreed to that a few times. Please correct me if I've gotten it wrong--this is strictly from memory, which at the end of a long work week isn't primed with skating statistics.

 

[Tonichelle]

To get a gig on SOI or something equally big, one must fulfill the criteria I mentioned up above (aka 1.) 2.) 3.).

Angela Nikodinov and Steven Cousins don't seem to fit your model, then.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Do you also consider that Rachel had (has?) a foot injury which has caused her to miss valuable training time for this event and which may or may not still be affecting her ability to skate or that she may have changed her technique to compensate for the pain for a time and now she's having jump issues? Tendonitis is nothing to sneeze at and if she's in pain here or still recovering, it will throw off training etc. Her spins and stroking, too, seem to be off - slower than normal on both fronts.

Do you consider the fact that Alissa's second event was not so hot and luck of the draw got her to the final more so than anything else because her score from her second event at other events (like CoR) would have put her at about 5th and out of this event? What if Alissa skates poorly at Nationals and finishes, say, 7th and in the post event interview says she was so nervous because of her GP medal and the expectations? Hypothetically, would you still put her on the World team over Rachel and Ashley who (lets say) skate lights out at Nationals and beat the pants off everyone there? How about if Mirai comes in a close third to those two? Mirai beat Alissa in France already...

I suspect that any two of the top 6-7 ladies in the US can get the job done at Worlds (medal+top 10 or at least total 13 placements, even if it's 6+7) IF they skate their best at Worlds. The problem is, that's the BIG IF since they ALL lack consistency, even Rachel (judging from her SP this AM in China). Some appear to have focus problems when they are in an unexpectedly good position after SP (Mirai, Agnes), some have injury problems and have been or are recovering from them (Mirai and Rachel), some have tended to skate poor SP repeatedly (Ashley), some respond very poorly to pressure (Alissa). I would say Mirai or Alissa at 90%+ of their absolute best are medal threats at Worlds and Ashley, Rachel, Agnes, and Christina can all hit the 4-10 mark at their best (meaning stay vertical and no << calls and no more than two < calls) and with a great deal of help maybe podium. But any one of those ladies can melt down at any time and that's been the problem.

I say the same thing about Jeremy - he is a medal threat at 90%+ of his best but he makes stupid mistakes when he has pressure.

Can we hire a sports psychologist for the World team? I know Roslyn used to work with one to work through the pressure of expectatioMn and it really helped her. Why aren't these inconsistent skaters already working with them?

I didn't know she had a foot problem. That's a decision for her to make whether or not to skate a competition. She did not skate as she would have normally, so this could be the reason.

Re Alissa. Regardless of how she got to the Finals, she was there and skating very well compared to her comps in previous years.
Mirai has to redeem herself. Posters are clinging to that Carmen skate, but in reality there was not much else after that comp.
Agnes is still too young for all this. Hopefully she is learning. I expect big improvements next season. She is talented.
Christina, I believe has gotten a lot of fan hype. She's a medalist-in-waiting.
Ashley looked fine to me last season. I think these comps caught her off guard.

What can anyone say about Jeremy? He is a beautiful skater although some people only like aggressive male skaters, which he is not. I like him the way he is but with more consistency. I think the US men have 3 places for the Worlds, so I think he will have no problem. Brandon, Ross, and Armin will be there. A choice for 3 has to be made. It will be as interesting as the Nats' Ladies comp. Who will podium? if that is the system.

As to who cares? only some fans will not care. All the skaters will skate a competition. That's their Sport. They are not spectators.

 

[Nadine]

Angela Nikodinov and Steven Cousins don't seem to fit your model, then.

Angela Nikodinov is a 2-time US National Bronze Medalist, therefore she fits in as #3.

And, lol, I had in my mind Steven Cousins specifically when thinking of #3, as I knew somebody would bring him up. Besides being BFF with Scott Hamilton, I recall Scott always introducing Steven as an 8-time British National Champion (just one less than Michelle Kwan).

Oh btw #3 takes into account not just US Nationals, but all Nationals (e.g. Chen Lu was a 9-time Chinese National Champion; tied with Michelle Kwan), though that's never used when introducing her, rather 2-time Olympic Bronze Medalist.

 

[Mathman]

On the question of whether the Grand Prix Finals are a good preview of Worlds, I checked out the men's results. Out of 15 Grand Prix's, the winner has also won the following Worlds or Olympics 10 times.

Stojko, 1996-97
Kulik, 1997-98
Yagudin, 1998-99
Plushenko, 2000-01
Yagudin, 2001-02
Plushenko, 2002-03
Lambiel, 2005-06
Joubert, 2006-07
Lysacek, 2009-10

 

[Nadine]

As far as I know Michelle had skipped GPF 2 times at the end of her amateur(maybe one before also) and Plu one, they usually competed and had earned tone of medals there before starting skipping it.Yuna hasnt skip from 2006-2010 any.
With all respect Nadine this is not a quote to be proud of, I cringe of the thought of what he meant and the consequences of how he trained, and it is not all -especially health in long term-worth sacrificing for medals and national pride or whatever.

Not that I don't believe you, seniorita, but I'll do my own fact-checking when I have the time as regards Michelle & Evgeni. Btw, just in case you or anybody else misunderstood, I'm talking about the Grand Prix Final, not the Grand Prix Series. Quite a few skaters have skipped the latter, or only did one, which didn't qualify s/he to the GPF, totally understandable. But some have skipped the whole series, doesn't matter how many times, they have done it. Case in point Michelle Kwan, and now Yuna Kim, whom hasn't been on the senior circuit anywhere near as long as Michelle or Evgeni. I'm not criticizing her, just stating a fact. She's smart not to compete imho, and has earned that privilege.

Regards Karolyi, I didn't say I advocated his position, nor that I am proud of it, did I? But that's one famous quote I recall distinctly, as it brought to mind Kerri Strug, whom competed on a broken foot! On the contraire, I would rather Rachael Flatt withdraw from the GPF then compete when she's obviously not prepared to do so because of the severe tendonitis in her right foot. Yeah, she said it's much better, but come on skaters are supposed to be nice and not talk about their injuries, et al, and smile and say "everything's all right". I don't believe it. But like I said in that same post somebody like Yuna Kim can afford to skip the entire GP series, including the GPF, but not Rachael, as she doesn't have her resume, thus I wouldn't be surprised like a good little soldier if she's competing because she knows she has to.

C'est la vie, that's life.

 

[Nadine]

I still say the following, in the grand scheme of things the Grand Prix Final doesn't come anywhere close to the Olympics, Worlds, and Nationals. These are the ones that are popular with the public, and which they will remember, especially #1, and to a lesser degree #2 & #3, though I think #3 is actually more important than #2 when it comes to the American public. Jmho.

Also, it goes without saying the publicity/coverage/media/et al is by & far more prestigious when it comes to #1, #2, and #3.

Hopefully one day the GPF will receive the same type of importance as those mentioned up above. For now, they remain important to the skaters most of all, and rightfully so. And of course to the hardcore f.s. fans, especially those that actually pay out money to see them in person or watch them on the internet. When one is willing to open one's pocket book, not just his/her mouth, then that says a lot to me how important the GP is to the fan as well.

To answer the question posed in this thread, I'll pick "No, it's not a major championship". Seriously, in the grand scheme of things I've NEVER heard a skater announced as a GPF Champion. It's always by level of importance, which goes as follows:

Ladies & Gentlemen, would you please welcome to the ice ______ (fill-in name):

1.) the Olympic Gold, Silver, or Bronze Medalist
2.) the (fill-in year) World Champion, Silver Medalist, Bronze Medalist
3.) the (fill-in year) US National Champion, Silver Medalist, Bronze Medalist

Then the order of importance goes down from there. For Europeans, it would be European Gold, Silver, or Bronze Medalist in place of 3.) up above. And I guess if you don't qualify for any of the above, then next would be 4CC or such, but I honestly have never seen it go that low. To get a gig on SOI or something equally big, one must fulfill the criteria I mentioned up above (aka 1.) 2.) 3.).

That said, I suppose it's important enough for those just starting out or whom have yet to make a name for themselves internationally. It can get your name on the map. But for the more established skaters whom have already had great success on the international scene it isn't necessary (e.g. Evgeni Plushenko, Yuna Kim, Michelle Kwan). For these greats it's okay to skip the GPF and just focus on Worlds, as their standing won't be affected one way or another if they choose to skip the GPs, GPF, etc. Anyhow, that's jmho.

p.s. also, I recommend skipping the GPs & GPF to save on wear & tear of the body, of course if one can afford to (e.g. Yuna Kim), but if you can't so be it. For the latter you skate even if injured, sick, or broken. Like Bela Karolyi used to say to his gymnasts "if it's not bleeding, then nothing's wrong".

 

[Olympia]

Yeah, Steven Cousins was British skating for a good long time. (Of course, it was probably easier for him to make his way to the top of the British podium than it was for Michelle to fight through people like Cohen, Nam, Nikodinov, both Hugheses, and others year after year to reach the American podium. But he still has all those golds to his name.) Besides, he's got star quality--what a thousand-watt smile! There are always exceptions to any rule. Weren't Annenko and Sratenski in SOI for a bit? (Or am I making that up....)

 

[herios]

On the question of whether the Grand Prix Finals are a good preview of Worlds, I checked out the men's results. Out of 15 Grand Prix's, the winner has also won the following Worlds or Olympics 10 times.

Stojko, 1996-97
Kulik, 1997-98
Yagudin, 1998-99
Plushenko, 2000-01
Yagudin, 2001-02
Plushenko, 2002-03
Lambiel, 2005-06
Joubert, 2006-07
Lysacek, 2009-10

I was thinking quite a bit about this recently, as i am making comparison's between 2006-07 and 2010-11 seasons, as both worlds were/are held in Japan. And as 2006-07 marked the breaktrough of Daisuke, I think this year will be the first when 2 japanese men will stand on the world podium in Tokyo.
So, indeed, back in 2006, at the GPF, Joubert and Takahashi went 1-2 and repeated it at the following worlds in 2007.

Let's see how it pans out this year, if tomorrow's outcome will prelude the Worlds outcome.

 

[Tonichelle]

Weren't Annenko and Sratenski in SOI for a bit? (Or am I making that up....)

yes but they were world medalists IIRC

 

[janetfan]

Congratulations to Alissa for winning the Gold medal at the GPF.

I think beyond all doubts it will be much harder for her to win the Gold medal at US Natls.

And why is that :think:

 

[Olympia]

She DID? Wheeeee! I was just going to check. I can safely say that it couldn't happen to a nicer person, and it's not too shabby an outcome for Sato/Dunjen, either. Glory be! Tremendous.