Ladies - Long Program

[silverlake22]

I don't think Adelina is that tiny. Liza, yes. But Adelina's significantly taller than her and looks more mature. She's not as tall as Agnes, but few figure skaters are.

She's nowhere close to as tall as Agnes from the looks of those pictures, and Agnes at 5'6" isn't a total giant like some people think. There is a chance Adelina could stay tiny though, and Liza reportedly has small parents so while she will definitely get bigger, she will likely stay very petite. Polina Shelepen is the only baby Russian who looks to be past her big growthspurt, and maybe Anna and Rosa too. Sometimes puberty isn't as hard on skaters and the years afterward when many girls fill out significantly, so where these girls are so young that could be after Sochi. Usually though, if the technique is solid most girls can adjust so Liza and Adelina will probably be ok.

 

[FlattFan]

I would say Agnes exceeded expectations by repeating her podium finish from last year. Her bronze here was one that was harder to earn than her silver last year (where would Kanako Murakami have placed with the same performance, eh?). After the SP, I thought Agnes was suffering a letdown from going to juniors after competing on the senior level. She really proved her competitive mettle with an exciting FS. She still has to improve her much-criticized SS, but I'm looking forward to seeing if she can crack the top 3 at Nationals next year.

Gao, well, it's disappointing that she didn't medal after being in 3rd after the SP, but I don't think many expected her to win. There was definitely a lot of pre-season hype but that was a long time ago, before the JGPF and all that. She's now 0-3 against Agnes. Since they're both part of the "next generation" of US ladies, it'll be interesting to see if Christina can even that out.

You're comparing a Kanako Murakami's bad skate to one of the better skated JW? Why don't you compare Kanako's better skate to the skates here. Kanako would still retain her world title against the two Russians. She regularly got +2 to +3 on her triple triple combo.

Gao is DOA type of skater. Scotty McShorty and Sandra Top-heavy both touted Gao as some kind of Yuna Kim. Well, she isn't. She hasn't even medaled in the Jr World. She's done growing, she's regularly doing 3x3. Very interesting some of you claimed she's growing and suffering and that's why her results are terrible. Stop making excuses for her. She's like a knock off version of Ashley Wagner. Never going to make it anywhere.

 

[silverlake22]

I hate all this Gao hate. She grew a ton this year anyone who thinks she looks the same as last season is blind. And she had one bad competition at the JGPF, and Zijun Li's 9th place at the JW shows just how flukey the results of that competition were. The rest of Christina's results this season have been good, finishing 4th at JW in an extremely deep field is not "terrible" at all. She's managed to get her 3f-3t consistent this season despite a 3-4 inch growthspurt, that's really hard to do. Not everyone is a child prodigy and I don't think just because she isn't as good as two 14 year old Russian wonderbabies who haven't hit puberty yet, it means she's "never going anywhere". Today is her birthday, she just turned 17, she's just starting out, so please give her a chance to prove herself on the senior ranks before writing her off. Yuna wasn't nearly as impressive as Mao in their junior days, and even in her first season on the GP, she had major stamina issues in her FS and had terrible spiral positions and a sit spin that didn't sit, but she fixed those things over the next 3 years and surged ahead of Mao and everyone else. Miki Ando was a mess when she was Christina's age and now she's winning everything at the age of 23, same goes for Alissa Czisny. Some people take longer to come into their own than others, so please give Christina a chance before writing her off. She might surprise the naysayers in coming seasons. I think she could be a medal contender come Sochi, it's all right there.

 

[jaylee]

You're comparing a Kanako Murakami's bad skate to one of the better skated JW? Why don't you compare Kanako's better skate to the skates here. Kanako would still retain her world title against the two Russians. She regularly got +2 to +3 on her triple triple combo.

Hmm. Where to begin.

The original post that I was responding to stated that the American ladies, including Gao, "failed to live up to expectations." My argument was that Agnes (an American lady) did better here than she did last year because even though it was a bronze this time and a silver last year, this competition was much tougher so the bronze was harder to earn. So my wondering how Kanako Murakami's gold medal winning performance at last year's JW would have stacked up at this year's JW is absolutely valid. Kanako barely won the FS last year and it was on PCS. She was second in the SP. She would not have won gold here with the same performances against Adelina. Silver is more debatable due to all the rule changes as Kanako had 3 2As in her FS and the spiral seq in the SP, which makes it hard to compare. I like Kanako, btw. :sheesh:

Gao is DOA type of skater. Scotty McShorty and Sandra Top-heavy both touted Gao as some kind of Yuna Kim. Well, she isn't. She hasn't even medaled in the Jr World. She's done growing, she's regularly doing 3x3. Very interesting some of you claimed she's growing and suffering and that's why her results are terrible. Stop making excuses for her. She's like a knock off version of Ashley Wagner. Never going to make it anywhere.

:scowl: Well, I didn't make any claims about Gao's growing affecting her results. Actually, I pointed out that there was a lot of pre-season hype for her and pointed out her 0-3 record versus Agnes. I just didn't think that many expected Gao to win here, not after the way the JGPF went (and after she went 0-2 versus both Adelina and Liza). And that was my response to the original poster who said that Gao should have lived up to the hype by winning.

I agree that Gao is not the next Yu-Na Kim. But she's not the next Ashley Wagner either. She's facing a far tougher field than Ashley, Rachael Flatt, Caroline Zhang, and Mirai Nagasu ever did in juniors, and I think she did respectably well.

 

[miki88]

I hate all this Gao hate. She grew a ton this year anyone who thinks she looks the same as last season is blind. And she had one bad competition at the JGPF, and Zijun Li's 9th place at the JW shows just how flukey the results of that competition were. The rest of Christina's results this season have been good, finishing 4th at JW in an extremely deep field is not "terrible" at all. She's managed to get her 3f-3t consistent this season despite a 3-4 inch growthspurt, that's really hard to do. Not everyone is a child prodigy and I don't think just because she isn't as good as two 14 year old Russian wonderbabies who haven't hit puberty yet, it means she's "never going anywhere". Today is her birthday, she just turned 17, she's just starting out, so please give her a chance to prove herself on the senior ranks before writing her off. Yuna wasn't nearly as impressive as Mao in their junior days, and even in her first season on the GP, she had major stamina issues in her FS and had terrible spiral positions and a sit spin that didn't sit, but she fixed those things over the next 3 years and surged ahead of Mao and everyone else. Miki Ando was a mess when she was Christina's age and now she's winning everything at the age of 23, same goes for Alissa Czisny. Some people take longer to come into their own than others, so please give Christina a chance before writing her off. She might surprise the naysayers in coming seasons. I think she could be a medal contender come Sochi, it's all right there.

Wow she's 17 now? She's almost the same age as Mirai! I don't have anything against her but I think it's wrong to compare her to Yuna, because Kim at her age was just so much better. It's more accurate to compare young Yuna to Liza at this point. Also wasn't Miki a former junior champ as well? I think Christina has potential but she also has to deal with a lot more competition in the future. As she comes to her own, so do her competitors.

 

[Layfan]

Christina did fine this season in the big scheme of things but it wasn't exactly a break out season either. Neither for Agnes but they are both skaters to watch in the next years. It is impressive that they both have 3-3. I wish Christina didn't have such a problematic 2a and that her skating was a bit more engaging.
I would never count her out but there is a lot there that needs to improve. I think it could really go both ways for her. She could break out sometime over the next years or be just a another skater.
Can't wait to watch the WJC videos though

 

[silverlake22]

Wow she's 17 now? She's almost the same age as Mirai! I don't have anything against her but I think it's wrong to compare her to Yuna, because Kim at her age was just so much better. It's more accurate to compare young Yuna to Liza at this point. Also wasn't Miki a former junior champ as well? I think Christina has potential but she also has to deal with a lot more competition in the future. As she comes to her own, so do her competitors.

Mirai is one year older than Christina, so if you think back to Mirai last season, early last season at CoC and SC, Christina this season was actually skating better than Mirai was then. Mirai skated cleanly at nationals and the olympics and that's when she started to do really well. And think back to CoC this season, when Mirai scored 86 for her FS. So really, it's not like Mirai always skates really well either.

The other thing is, a clean Christina probably could have placed 3rd at the JGPF and Jr. Worlds and 4th at nationals, all in very deep fields, but she just didn't skate 2 clean programs at any of those competitions, likely because her growth was affecting her jumps. Agnes beat Christina at nationals and JW because she made fewer mistakes than Christina did at both competitions, if they both were to skate clean, they probably would have very nearly tied, and it's a toss up over who would have placed ahead of who. It's not like Christina skated perfectly at JW and finished 4th, her FS was far from her best as she missed two big point getting combos and her sketchy 2a in the SP also cost her a couple points.

Also, Yuna at age 16 did have a lot of problems in the FS, like here for example, not so perfect, and the score she earned for it Christina actually topped a couple times this season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p8UIaDUXpU

Anyways, I think Christina is compared to Yuna mainly because they have the same coach, a similar elegant style, and similar body types, not because people think she's going to be Kim's successor.

 

[Jammers]

Kim also struggled back in 2007, 2008 with a bad back that held her back a bit in the LP. Once she got totally healthy she was nearly unbeatable. As for comparing Gao to Kim there it is no contest. Check out Kim at just 16 at her first Worlds. She's so much more elegant then Gao is even at such a young age. Dick and Peggy both raved about her sophistication and expressive style. And of course her speed was incredible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FmncaNGLOI

 

[FlattFan]

Hmm. Where to begin.

The original post that I was responding to stated that the American ladies, including Gao, "failed to live up to expectations." My argument was that Agnes (an American lady) did better here than she did last year because even though it was a bronze this time and a silver last year, this competition was much tougher so the bronze was harder to earn. So my wondering how Kanako Murakami's gold medal winning performance at last year's JW would have stacked up at this year's JW is absolutely valid. Kanako barely won the FS last year and it was on PCS. She was second in the SP. She would not have won gold here with the same performances against Adelina. Silver is more debatable due to all the rule changes as Kanako had 3 2As in her FS and the spiral seq in the SP, which makes it hard to compare. I like Kanako, btw. :sheesh:

You don't have to sheesh me. It wasn't directed at you even though I quoted you. You can't compare one year to another just like you can't compare one event to another. Kanako won everything last year, and made a big splash this year.

Well, I didn't make any claims about Gao's growing affecting her results. Actually, I pointed out that there was a lot of pre-season hype for her and pointed out her 0-3 record versus Agnes. I just didn't think that many expected Gao to win here, not after the way the JGPF went (and after she went 0-2 versus both Adelina and Liza). And that was my response to the original poster who said that Gao should have lived up to the hype by winning.

This one was for silverlake, Gao's biggest fan. I agree with you.

I agree that Gao is not the next Yu-Na Kim. But she's not the next Ashley Wagner either. She's facing a far tougher field than Ashley, Rachael Flatt, Caroline Zhang, and Mirai Nagasu ever did in juniors, and I think she did respectably well.

Rachael Flatt, Caroline Zhang all did triple triple in the short programs and triple triple in the long program when they were junior. It's not like they did some watered down LP and won. They all did 7 triples LP just like the winner here.
Both Rachael's and Caroline's junior programs definitely would have medaled here. Gao, not so much.

 

[silverlake22]

There's no way Flatt or Zhang as juniors would have beaten Adelina and Liza here. Their jumps have always been of bad quality not to mention that they both lack speed still and this was even more noticable during their junior years.

If Gao was clean in the FS, she would have come in 3rd, but she still managed to place 4th overall despite making some big mistakes in the FS, why can't people understand this? A clean Shelepen, Shoji, Hicks, or Li would not have passed her because Christina's PCS was higher than all of theirs by a good margin and they all had 7 triples planned so the BV was pretty much equal.

Are people writing off Shelepen, Shoji, Hicks, and Li as "going nowhere" or "a second rate Ashley Wagner", no - well except for Shelepen, but I think that's BS too, she's just in the same boat as Christina - very talented and promising just struggled from growth spurts this season and she even had an injury on top of it, most people agree they are really promising, and if Christina beat all these girls at JW, how does that make her bad if all these other girls are good and ones to watch in the future?

I guess Li's situation is a little different where she doesn't have much competition in China, but the other ladies are all from nations where skating is as strong if not stronger than it is in the US. And further, Christina made the JW team which is an accomplishment in itself because, as far as I know, Yasmin, Vanessa, and Kristiene all competed at the same nationals but didn't make the team, and the same goes for Polina Agafonova, Sofia, and Rosa in Russia. So people can say what they want about Gao and Shelepen, but saying that they are going nowhere is implying all the girls they beat at JW and beat at their respective nationals to qualify for JW also have no future, which frankly isn't true.

 

[FlattFan]

There's no way Flatt or Zhang as juniors would have beaten Adelina and Liza here. Their jumps have always been of bad quality not to mention that they both lack speed still and this was even more noticable during their junior years.

LP: Liza got 110. Flatt got 112. Zhang got 110. There's no way Flatt or Zhang as juniors would have beaten Adelina and Liza here? Adelina should get 2 flutzes call and go down to 110 as well.

If Gao was clean in the FS, she would have come in 3rd, but she still managed to place 4th overall despite making some big mistakes in the FS, why can't people understand this?

But Gao is never clean. If is if. If is not what happened.

Are people writing off Shelepen, Shoji, Hicks, and Li as "going nowhere" or "a second rate Ashley Wagner", no - well except for Shelepen, but I think that's BS too, she's just in the same boat as Christina - very talented and promising just struggled from growth spurts this season and she even had an injury on top of it, most people agree they are really promising, and if Christina beat all these girls at JW, how does that make her bad if all these other girls are good and ones to watch in the future?

Shoji has some potential. Shelepen couldn't manage to beat Kanako and Agnes two years in a row. Now there are more competition, so it's understandable she's going down in ranking. Vanessa and Shoji, new girls, handily beat her. Same with Gao. Last year, she was behind Kanako and Agnes. Kanako moved up to senior, a bunch of newborns moved up to jr and immediately placed above her. She's really going nowhere.

And further, Christina made the JW team which is an accomplishment in itself because, as far as I know, Yasmin, Vanessa, and Kristiene all competed at the same nationals but didn't make the team, and the same goes for Polina Agafonova, Sofia, and Rosa in Russia. So people can say what they want about Gao and Shelepen, but saying that they are going nowhere is implying all the girls they beat at JW and beat at their respective nationals to qualify for JW also have no future, which frankly isn't true.

Yasmin and Vanessa are a couple of 14 and 15yo girls. This is their first year. Wait a year or two, they, too, will place higher than Christina.

 

[oleada]

Well, take out the spiral sequence that Flatt in her program, and her score goes down. Adelina's skating is far more impressive and smooth. The jumps are bigger, and her positions are more beautiful.

I like Shoji, but I'm not sure how promising she really is given that she has chronic problems with under-rotating the harder triples. What happens when she grows?

Gao - eh. She's got talent, but she was really hyped this year and she didn't live up to that. I don't find her particularly elegant or expressive, and her basics and spin need work (though they have improved). Her 2A needs a complete overhaul.

 

[Jammers]

Good grief how sad that a 15 year old is counted out if she struggles a bit. Good thing someone like Shizuka Arakawa didn't pack it in when she wasn't having good results in the late 90's. Or Maria Butyrskaya or even someone like Nancy Kerrigan. Some skaters just peak at different times. But nobody seems to want to give them a chance. The way these girls are disposable is really disturbing.

 

[FlattFan]

Good grief how sad that a 15 year old is counted out if she struggles a bit. Good thing someone like Shizuka Arakawa didn't pack it in when she wasn't having good results in the late 90's. Or Maria Butyrskaya or even someone like Nancy Kerrigan. Some skaters just peak at different times. But nobody seems to want to give them a chance.

You see, no one said a thing about Shiz or Masha because no one said a thing about Shiz or Masha. Silverlake's been saying a lot of things about Gao so it's natural to have a lot of follow-ups.

 

[janetfan]

Good grief! Somebody is daring to compare Flatt to Adelina?

All the flack Gao is getting seems misplaced and is probably from posters who never competed as teens and experienced a huge growth spurt.

I grew 3 inches from 15 to 16 and let me tell you it was quite an adjustment. I was a basketball player and if dribbling got harder I somehow doubt it was as tricky as doing triple jumps!

I like Christina and hope she has a great season next year.

 

[Jammers]

Hopefully Christina gets more expressive next year. Her added height gives her a great look on the ice with those long legs. She's become statuesque with her height. Now she needs to use it to her advantage.

 

[SkateSkates]

Hopefully Christina gets more expressive next year. Her added height gives her a great look on the ice with those long legs. She's become statuesque with her height. Now she needs to use it to her advantage.

I agree. She needs to work on her stretch and do programs more like Kostner. This added height and stretch will improve her look and will allow her to skate more elegant programs.

 

[silverlake22]

LP: Liza got 110. Flatt got 112. Zhang got 110. There's no way Flatt or Zhang as juniors would have beaten Adelina and Liza here? Adelina should get 2 flutzes call and go down to 110 as well.


But Gao is never clean. If is if. If is not what happened.


Shoji has some potential. Shelepen couldn't manage to beat Kanako and Agnes two years in a row. Now there are more competition, so it's understandable she's going down in ranking. Vanessa and Shoji, new girls, handily beat her. Same with Gao. Last year, she was behind Kanako and Agnes. Kanako moved up to senior, a bunch of newborns moved up to jr and immediately placed above her. She's really going nowhere.

Yasmin and Vanessa are a couple of 14 and 15yo girls. This is their first year. Wait a year or two, they, too, will place higher than Christina.

Flatt and Zhang got those scores before the GOE had been altered and there were still spirals, and also the competition wasn't as steep. Surely if Liza and Adelina were to skate in the same competition as junior Flatt and Zhang, they'd not Flatt and Zhang down a few pegs just by comparison. They are superior to Flatt and Zhang on every level and if we're talking about Christina, at this point, she'd definitely far superior to Zhang. Flatt has managed to maintain her position as one of the top US ladies which is impressive so really the fact that she won Jr. Worlds just proves what a good competitor she is.

Gao may not have been clean in the FS this season, but she also didn't bomb a FS all season, which is pretty good for a junior lady going through a big growthspurt. Her technique is solid and now that she looks to be done growing I bet she'll start skating clean/near clean performances a lot more frequently.

Shoji is very young and has great PCS already, so yes she is promising. And she also may have already gone through puberty from the looks of it. She has time to fix her jumps and is definitely a great talent, and yes, Christina was not as good as Risa when she was 14, but for right now, she's better.

Shelepen is a bit of a mess right now but she has all the tools she needs to be a top contender in coming years. She just needs to get adjusted to her new body, get a real choreographer, clean up her spins, and skate to music/get programs that accentuate her long limbed physique and make her seem graceful and balletic instead of gangly. Her look is really very similar to that of Kostner as a teenager, and if she could emulate Kostner in her skating as well, then she could be great. She already has the big jumps and she's such a beautiful girl with this gorgeous body line now, that I actually think once she and her coach learn how to use these attributes to her advantage, she could be a stunning skater and a force to be reckoned with.

I also like Yasmin and Vanessa but it's easy to say they'll be better than Christina in a year or two, but we don't know how they'll get through puberty and Vanessa I'm especially worried about where her jumps are itty bitty and she's still so tiny. Yasmin has great potential but for now she's quite inconsistent and again so little so it's hard to say where she will be in two years time.

Gao like Polina just needs to learn how to use her new body to make her skating look more elegant instead of awkward and ungainly, and that will come in time, because already this season she's a lot smoother and mature in her skating compared to last season. Her spins still need work but they are improving and I'm sure she'll continue to work on that, and at least she's getting her levels.

Things can change a lot over the course of a season, especially with girls this age, so we might have a very different outlook come this time next year. For now, I'm just excited to see them all skate next season.

 

[jaylee]

You don't have to sheesh me. It wasn't directed at you even though I quoted you. You can't compare one year to another just like you can't compare one event to another. Kanako won everything last year, and made a big splash this year.

Oh, okay. Gotcha.

Rachael Flatt, Caroline Zhang all did triple triple in the short programs and triple triple in the long program when they were junior. It's not like they did some watered down LP and won. They all did 7 triples LP just like the winner here.
Both Rachael's and Caroline's junior programs definitely would have medaled here. Gao, not so much.

Good point about the content of Rachael and Zhang's programs....wait a second, I thought we can't compare one event/one year to another?

 

[FlattFan]

Good point about the content of Rachael and Zhang's programs....wait a second, I thought we can't compare one event/one year to another?

We can't compare one event to another. I wasn't comparing, but some people do. So I just reminded them that Rachael and Caroline didn't have 2 double Axels and won Jr World. They actually had to land a few triples to win theirs.