ISU Where Will Worlds BE (formerly) JAPAN QUAKE FOR WORLDS | Page 31 | Golden Skate

ISU Where Will Worlds BE (formerly) JAPAN QUAKE FOR WORLDS

Love Gattaca, but consider that Nyman score basically unskateable. Wonderful music, though.

I'm really not for the Idolization of the sport. pista, I quite agree that culture/society have changed. But are all those changes good? If not, what does the sport gain/lose by trying to appeal to those audiences (here's where you get to call me an elitist snob).


you elitist snob. ^__^ ;ppppp
make sure you get there early and save me a seat in the elitist snob lounge.

serious business brought up an interesting point, but one thing i can't quite grasp is why the koreans and japanese should embrace european classicism more readily than americans, who... well, are on the whole more european born and bred.

(one) cynical view is, it's popular in korea and japan cuz athletes from those countries are currently winning. when china wins big (gonna happen sooner or later), cinquanta (re-elected for his nth term, the lesser evil vs. didier) will get the bulk of his money from china (just as he currently does from japan). since there's a winner every single year, as long as cinquanta is around, skating will be okay. even if a bit difficult to locate on the US tv dial.

since we're talking about US viability of skating now... what happened to the hope that yeonah kim was going to revive even the moribund AMERICAN skating interest? has that hope... lapsed? or is it something impossible to tell now, now that she's not yet 100% devoted to touring and being a star? (NOT that i'm advocating that--i don't like the IDOL-ization of skating either. anybody who knows me knows i'm an old fogey who wants everybody to skate to slow soothing music :)

ETA shoutout to mathman: is the specter of didier running for ISU pres the same as the specter of an october worlds? everybody will say, anything BUT THAT and voila, speedy slides across the finish line an undisputed (and appreciated!) winner.
 
Last edited:
For me classical music came first, and it did influence my love of figure skating. I learned nearly everything I know about music from the radio. Then I started buying recordings. Whatever the reason for the loss of music in public life, it makes me very sad. I don't know how cultural trends influence the waning of figure skating in the U.S., but it's a shame as well. The lack of public subsidies for the arts might certainly play a part in it.
 
Figure Skating needs to take a good step forward for it to reemerge in the US, in my opinion.

But why? As I pointed out before, figure skating remains popular in parts of Europe, and it's doing very well in Japan. It's not as if all those places are totally unhip and behind and lack popular culture. It's not as if popular skaters skate to the latest Oricon chart hits in Japan, and yet the Japanese still tune in and enjoy them. There is room for both figure skating and the latest pop sensation, the former doesn't have to ape the latter for success in many countries. The US is a lucrative market and all, but should figure skating change that substantially just to pander to it? And there's every chance it would backfire. The Belbin/Agosto "hip-hop" routine to Justin Timberlake was a mess that bled eyes and deadened souls.

I'm really not for the Idolization of the sport. pista, I quite agree that culture/society have changed. But are all those changes good? If not, what does the sport gain/lose by trying to appeal to those audiences (here's where you get to call me an elitist snob).

It's not elitist or snobbish to appreciate and respect discipline and reverence for well honed forms and beautiful traditions. It's natural to citizens in any nation that halfway tries at having a well rounded education. An aversion to artistic excellence (something running rampant in the Tea Party section of America), however, is unnatural and weird.

Which is not to say I'm against figure skaters doing modern routines and skating to non-classical music and shirking balletic forms. I do wish figure skaters would do that more often actually. But given the fact that skating remains popular in countries with vibrant pop cultures, I can't point to skating's traditionalism as a fault that caused figure skating's decline in America. It's more likely the fault is with America.
 
For me classical music came first, and it did influence my love of figure skating. I learned nearly everything I know about music from the radio. Then I started buying recordings. Whatever the reason for the loss of music in public life, it makes me very sad. I don't know how cultural trends influence the waning of figure skating in the U.S., but it's a shame as well. The lack of public subsidies for the arts might certainly play a part in it.



i too learned classical music first, then skating.

there's still hope. with college admissions so competitive, and so many candidates looking to appear well-rounded... no matter how much the right wing sucks up the arts subsidies (assuming that's actually happening to a strangling extent), there will always be kids dragged to piano and violin lessons by the scruff of their necks (as well as those who willingly go for the love of it LOL), and some of those kids will end up listening to classical music and liking it, and being annoyed that for the longest time itunes didn't have gapless playback... or whatever it was that got in the way of proper classical music listening LOL
 
For me classical music came first, and it did influence my love of figure skating. I learned nearly everything I know about music from the radio. Then I started buying recordings. Whatever the reason for the loss of music in public life, it makes me very sad. I don't know how cultural trends influence the waning of figure skating in the U.S., but it's a shame as well. The lack of public subsidies for the arts might certainly play a part in it.

Don't fear too much Olympia. Students at American public schools, even after cutbacks still get more exposure and opportunities to learn to play an instrument in a band or orchestra than students from most other countries.

The orchestra (as in string instruments) is particularly interesting as easy transcriptions of the classics for young orchestras are virtually unsaleable in most of Europe. The reason is they don't have enough young students playing string instruments in their public schools to have an orchestra.

Bands are typically municipal in nature (town or community bands) and not part of the education system in Europe. They do have special music schools for students who are serious and hope to become professional musicians. But the vast majority of European school children do not get to play in school bands and orchestras the way young public school students do in USA.
 
serious business brought up an interesting point, but one thing i can't quite grasp is why the koreans and japanese should embrace european classicism more readily than americans, who... well, are on the whole more european born and bred.

On the one hand, it is now indisputably true that a lot of those Western classical forms from classical music to ballet get more respect and love in South Korea and Japan than they do in America. So there's that. On the other hand, even if the form of a prima ballerina or a violin virtuoso is totally foreign to someone, I think people who are raised in an education system that are exposed to well honed artistic excellence will respect it and may even appreciate it. For instance, people in most cultures aren't familiar with traditional Indian dancing. But I have seen traditional Indian dancers just completely enrapture an audience on some variety show. Or take the Davis/White Bollywood routine that actually used more traditional Indian dance than do most Bollywood movies, I think the hard work, discipline and adherence to a studied and thoughtful form of beauty is apparent to people who are receptive to it, even if that form of dance is new to them.

It's about recognizing and appreciating the hard work it takes to build on and create within an aesthetic framework, which I think is possible even to people who aren't familiar with that framework. Like if you ask me to explain to you the intricacies and meaning behind Tibetan sand-painting, I would be like hurr derp. But I could still find it beautiful and respect the effort it took to create it. And similarly with figure skating, that's all it takes for some people to begin to enjoy it.

I don't think the Japanese audience started out knowing all the history and nuances behind Shizuka Arakawa's layback ina bauer (in fact the term entered the Japanese lexicon as a synonym for layback, rather than a specific spiral edge configuration). But they could still appreciate that it was difficult, beautiful and that their champion was rewarded for it. In the US, due to years of art education being shortchanged, there's going to be more skepticism and outright apathy towards seeing anybody rewarded for artistic excellence, even if it's an American. This hurdle is easier to overcome for forms of art Americans are more familiar with, like commercial art (pop singing and dancing, for instance). But it's going to be a challenge for figure skating.
 
Don't fear too much Olympia. Students at American public schools, even after cutbacks still get more exposure and opportunities to learn to play an instrument in a band or orchestra than students from most other countries.

The orchestra (as in string instruments) is particularly interesting as easy transcriptions of the classics for young orchestras are virtually unsaleable in most of Europe. The reason is they don't have enough young students playing string instruments in their public schools to have an orchestra.

Bands are typically municipal in nature (town or community bands) and not part of the education system in Europe. They do have special music schools for students who are serious and hope to become professional musicians. But the vast majority of European school children do not get to play in school bands and orchestras the way young public school students do in USA.

I never thought of it that way, Hernando. Thanks a lot for a reassuring new look at things! I also like what skfan says about students having music lessons so they'll be well-rounded for college application. Maybe symphonic music will stay around for awhile longer!

For me, classical music is a tremendous emotional resource. I have gotten through major life events with the help of music such as Mahler's "Resurrection" Symphony or Borodin's Second String Quartet. I'd like to think that this richness of experience is available to as many people as possible for similar times in their lives, in addition to whatever other musical forms and artistic expression they rely on. In this case, more is better.
 
Don't fear too much Olympia. Students at American public schools, even after cutbacks still get more exposure and opportunities to learn to play an instrument in a band or orchestra than students from most other countries.

Public education in the US is bankrupt (in many districts, literally so). It's underfunded and utterly gutted, starting with arts education. Being offered the opportunity to play in the tuneless school band and its rusted through instruments doesn't encourage respect or interest in classical music in anybody except the rare few already inclined. And even if taken, the lack of respect from peers, resources from authorities and sophistication from instructors don't do anything to foster that interest. That is if such things are still being offered as schools are shuttered and classes consolidated.

I'm not familiar with the education systems in Europe. But classical music training is far more ubiquitous for kids in Japan and South Korea than it is in the US. There's a lot more respect, interest and expectations with it.

What I am more familiar with in Europe is the media. State-funded media is far more robust and common in Europe than it is in America. And those outlets give more airtime and respect to classical and/or non-commercial art than commercial outlets do. So in many European countries, though kids may be deprived of the opportunity to join the musical gulag that is the American school band, they'd still be exposed to more classical music and art than their American counterparts.
 
But why? As I pointed out before, figure skating remains popular in parts of Europe, and it's doing very well in Japan. It's not as if all those places are totally unhip and behind and lack popular culture..

I never thought being a skating fan meant you were hip although the opposite of that has crossed my mind on more than one occassion ;)

As to Pop culture we have to consider that Americans are not buingy tickets for concerts featuring Japanese, Chinese and Korean Pop musicians when they headline tours in USA :p

Whether you like it or not American Pop culture, particularly the music drives the world's cultural Pop engine. We create and innovate and the rest follow.

I am sure their are Korean Beyonces, and a Japanese Lady Gaga.

When Billy Joel first played in the Soviet Union (or was it Russia by then) it caused quite a sensation. We do get some Russian ballet in USA but it is not part of the Pop culture.

It is fine to trash American Pop culture and music and I won't argue with anyone who doesn't like it. But it is simply not true to think Pop music acts from Europe and Asia are as influential as their USA counterparts.

There was a time when the Beatles turned the world on it's head but that was because they were playing American rock better than the Americans.

Here is a little prelude for Worlds. Look and you will see Putin and even Gorby gettin' down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw0kJf_15QE

Apparently rock and Red Square go well together. :)
 
Hernando, I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm trashing American pop culture, or blaming it for skating's decline in popularity in the US. Quite the opposite. I kept saying that a vibrant pop culture doesn't preclude the popularity of figure skating in other countries, and it shouldn't in America.

What I am trashing is the ongoing and very successful attempts in America to dismantle its education system and discredit and shun traditional and non-commercial art. A symptom of that is the decline in figure skating's popularity in the country.
 
the less Lady Gaga I have to suffer through, the better. Skating's music selections is not what holds it back.
 
Dear Olympia and Skatefiguring:
Thanks a lot for your kind words.I did not visit this cite for sometime, because I have been frantic finding out my friends's safety and talking into my family re: leaving Japan for a while.

Fortunately, everybody is fine now, but serious concern remains re: increasing contamination of food and water by radio active substance.

Please send Japan a positive thought and energy for their swift recovery and stabilization of nuclear plants.
 
Seniorita, I just took another look around, and found some newer news. Universal Sports is carrying an article based on Phil Hersh's report in the Chicago Tribune. The word is that the members of the ISU council have received their voting ballots, and Cinquanta says he expects to announce the decision on Friday.

thank you that you put the info :)but my question was rather about why France is offerin the Worlds 2012. I doubt they do it out of their good heart and just for it, rumors say they cant find an arena yet cause of municipality issues. It just sounded strange and Mr didier is not the most trustworthy person ever.

genki I wish you and your family, friends and all Japan to feel safe again soon.
 
Last edited:
(one) cynical view is, it's popular in korea and japan cuz athletes from those countries are currently winning.

Your 'cynical' view is shared by Shizuka Arakawa.

She said, in the televised 'talk show' with Daisuke Takahashi several weeks ago, that although she was first and utmost supporting and rooting for Japanese skaters, she was at the same time worried that continuous dominance of Japanese single skaters might result in decline of popularity of the sport in the rest of the world. (Kudos to her for saying this all in public, I thought!)

She also said elsewhere that one of the main reasons why she was putting so much effort into popularising ice shows in Japan now was for the longevity of the interest in figure skating - she understands that the current figure skating boom in Japan depends on the success of the competitive skaters, and the popularity of figure skating (including non-competitive kind) is needed should the day come when Japanese athletes are not successful. I trust her words as she has first-hand experience of the days when figure skating was not enjoying much attention in her own country, and is aware the resurgence of the popularity is part attributed to her own success, winning the gold in the 2006 Olympics.
 
First and foremost, I don't think most people see figure skating like they see beauty pageants. I would reckon anybody who thinks figure skating is a beauty pageant would never be into figure skating much to begin with. on rules and considerations for minutiae they don't care about.
We've been through all this before and many times. The decline in popularity of US Figure Skating was caused by several factors.

1. The Media played up the the darling little girls are so cute and can do all those tricks on skates. That led to Figure Skating as a little girl's sport. The Media played little attention Men's, Pairs and Ice Dance which were more Sport than those darling little girls. Even Dick Button did not get the complete fanfare he deserved. I am just speaking of outside the sport. Yes, figure skating was covered well within its own media. For some unknown reason, the younger the girl was the more the media played up to it. Americans did not see it as a grown-up sport.

2. The Media also played up the Tonya/Kerrigan incident way out of proportion. It got world wide publicity and nonAmericans just laughed

3. The 2002 Scandal was prime newsworthy and showed that Figure Skating was not on the up and up.

4. The newer winter sports showed incredible new Tricks and surpassed the tricks on skates.

5. Ballet performances pack them in the theatre and not just every 4 years. a big change in taste from acrobatics to dance.

6. Let's face it the CoP is not to the liking of the general public who have their own ideas about figure skating.

However, there are some fans, including me, who enjoy the competition. I'm speaking only in the US, not other countries. Maybe, some day there will be a resurgence of figure skating in the US, after all, we have the 2010 Olympc Men's Champion who garnered more popularity on a reality show.
 
However, there are some fans, including me, who enjoy the competition. I'm speaking only in the US, not other countries. Maybe, some day there will be a resurgence of figure skating in the US, after all, we have the 2010 Olympc Men's Champion who garnered more popularity on a reality show.

I am afraid I am sticking my nose into the business of the country's, which has practically nothing to do with me... but yes, I though the US had a big opportunity this year and was surprised that both of the most popular / well-known men decided to take a year out! I wonder if it is the opportunity missed?

The popularity of the ladies figure skating was made solid in Japan by having succession of champions - Shizuka followed by Miki in 2007, and then by Mao in 2008. I suspect one of the (many?) reasons why Daisuke decided to keep going for this season is to build up on the massive attention given to the Men's event because of him winning the bronze at the Olys. The Worlds was going to be in Tokyo, and he knew he is now a real house-hold name in Japan - he can contribute towards continuation of / increase of interest in Men's event. He said many times that it is his mission to make the Men's event as popular as the Ladies'.
 
Your 'cynical' view is shared by Shizuka Arakawa.

She said, in the televised 'talk show' with Daisuke Takahashi several weeks ago, that although she was first and utmost supporting and rooting for Japanese skaters, she was at the same time worried that continuous dominance of Japanese single skaters might result in decline of popularity of the sport in the rest of the world. (Kudos to her for saying this all in public, I thought!) .

Yes, kudos from me too! mot, thanks for reporting this.

And best wishes to genki, and for all of Japan.
 
A lot of good points raised here, although I agree with some more than others. Some tentative thoughts:

-It's unquestionable, IMO, that skating's popularity in any market/country is tremendously affected by the presence (or absence) of a ladies singles champion (and the effect being perhaps an order of magnitude greater for an OGM champion). I agree with those who say that skating's popularity has basically waned since Michelle Kwan stopped competing. The anticipation of a revival sputtered and died in recent years as a string of Great American Hopes (eg Sasha, Alissa, Mirai) have always seemed to make it to the edge of, but have never leaped over, the final threshold. Everyone loves a winner (and I seem to recall a US President well into the last century who specifically referred to Americans in using the phrase). If Mirai were to win a couple of Worlds medals or an OGM, I suspect that the US media marketing machinery would be whirring so fast that some sort of time dilation would result (thus throwing us back to the 'Golden Age' of skating popularity, and disproving Einstein to boot :p).

-That being said, I do think there is a certain "swimming against the tide" aspect in trying to enlarge the figure skating audience today. The media food chain is vastly broader and more cutthroat than it was, for reasons having to do with both hardware and software. A few decades ago, there were basically three networks in the US to disseminate visual content, and that was that. If you showed figure skating on a channel, you could get a goodly slice of the Nielsen pie (though you'd still be beat by "Six Million Dollar Man" ;)). Now, you've got a zillion cable channels, internet streaming, youtube, programs on demand, etc.; so many ways for the viewer to wiggle out of the prison that broadcast media used to be.

In conjunction with this proliferation in the gadgetry (and probably symbiotically), the breadth and volume of viewer content has exploded, whether it be indie films, made-for-TV productions by A&E, viral viewer-produced clips (which must take responsibility for unleashing Justin Bieber on the world), sports, music, the arts, basically any and everything. The choices are overwhelming.

These factors have led to the balkanization of Medialand and the micro-slicing of the available eyeballs and dollars; the three sharks that used to cruise around for a meal are being eaten up (the market share of the Big Three networks has shrunk) by swarms of piranha, each fighting for their fragment of the consumer corpus.

What this means, perhaps, is that it is inherently more difficult for figure skating to capture the level of following and viewership that it used to have.

-More difficult, but not impossible. An example of a traditionally niche offering that vaulted, in the past decade or so, to historically unseen levels of prominence is golf. I think a comparison is potentially instructive. Golf didn't achieve this by monkeying around with the rules (actually, the fact that the rules haven't changed in any significant way for at least a century is, in my view, a strength; all golf fans know how the game is played). As many of you know, the reason had to do with the athletes, and foremost an athlete, Tiger Woods. The fact that a photogenic player emerged who not only won majors in bushels but shattered scoring records, and did it over an extended period of time, was instrumental in allowing the media (pre-fire hydrant :biggrin:) to execute a consistent message, and in the process created an icon for viewers to follow.

Here, too, skating faces some difficult conundrums. Golfers can win championships well into their forties. That the longtime pattern is for (ladies) skaters to compete and retire while still relatively young allows only a very short window to perform marketing magic. My thought is that for skating follow in golf's trajectory, it needs a champion skater willing and eager to stay in it for longer than is traditional, winning World Championships and a couple of OGMs. And more broadly, perhaps skating needs to institute a culture that encourages longevity. This is particularly important for the US market if the champion skater of the time period in question is not American. A personal musing: the elimination of the idea of competitors as "amateurs" (which is a sham in any case), and providing skaters with a fair share of financial incentives (if skating revenues grow, then their prize money grows with it) might be a good start. A more radical (and perhaps at this point fantastical) variant would be for competitions and shows to be incorporated under the same organizational umbrella, with profits negotiated in line with the standing and performance of the skaters (like any proper sport).

What about the LPGA, you may ask? Isn't it struggling? In terms of potential, the LPGA is always going to appeal to a smaller market than the PGA (for reasons analogous to why ladies skating is always going to be bigger than mens). Having said this, however, the (American) popularity of ladies golf is affected by the same issue: there is currently no breakout American superstar. I would bet my house that if Michelle Wie started winning majors, ratings would (relatively speaking) skyrocket. And as a matter of fact, they already show a bounce whenever the Big Wiesy is in the lead, because she is the photogenic American Hope of ladies golf.

I apologize for the somewhat lengthy post (but it wouldn't be my first time :sheesh:), and hope that this admittedly idiosyncratic view is of interest to some.
 
Robeye, that's only true in the USA. Russia and Canada haven't been dominant in ladies, but their success in the other three disciplines is what makes the sport popular (Slutskaya excepted). I tend to agree with the rest of what you posted, but I think that the success of the sport being so linked to the ladies harms the sport more then aids it, imo.
 
Back
Top