How Should Junior Grand Prix Finalists be Selected? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

How Should Junior Grand Prix Finalists be Selected?

Hyena

Tous les whiskys
Medalist
Joined
Jan 9, 2014
Why not true? I did not say that there was no criticism. There was some although the fanfares of praising were much louder including some comments that she is "better than current junior Russians". What I said is that the criticism was quite tame. And although her axel technique is quite similar to Medvedeva's the ubiquitous in 2015-2018 term "muscled" was never used.
I don't know if I saw the exact word "muscled" but there were pretty frequent and widespread discussions of concerning jump technique. So it seems to me like you're nitpicking here if you're searching just for that specific word. I think the ratio of praise to criticism is about equal to when Medvedeva very first came on the scene (this was Isabeau's very first JGP event and as she competes more, I absolutely guarantee the amount of criticism will increase, especially if she becomes as successful as Zhenya did).

I think Isabeau was a little overscored, and I don't think she'll be the only athlete on the JGP to have that happen. I like the idea to increase the number of spots to 8 for all disciplines regardless how the ISU decides to select finalists, since that would give more athletes a chance in an uneven and difficult season. And I really hope the ISU decides and announces something soon so that we can argue about specifics rather than just suggestions.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Simplest answer? JGPF doesn't matter. Do the JGPs for experience. Ask the countries to do a Junior Nationals. Hold Junior Worlds. Applies in general, for any season. Only 6 kids being sent to JGPF is kind of pointless if the aim of juniors and especially JGPs is simply "experience".
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
There are money prizes, not to mention other advantages, so JGPF is not just for experience.
What are the "other advantages"? And why can't the monetary awards and these "other advantages" be redistributed through worlds participation, instead of only taking 6 participants to the JGPF?
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
What are the "other advantages"? And why can't the monetary awards and these "other advantages" be redistributed through worlds participation, instead of only taking 6 participants to the JGPF?
In USA, qualifying for this and that can mean being on the A or B team rather than the C team, which affects both your federation funding and next year's event assignments. It figures into Body of Work.

Advantages will differ in other countries, I suspect.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
In USA, qualifying for this and that can mean being on the A or B team rather than the C team, which affects both your federation funding and next year's event assignments. It figures into Body of Work.
OK. No reason to think that if the ISU cancels JGPF this season or even permanently, the rules cannot change. What will the USFed do? Ask the skaters to attend an imaginary JGPF, or lobby for the JGPF to remain with the reason "well, we need to use it for BoW"? :)
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I do not know, but if the past is anything to go by, they will do nothing and be happy that C team is bigger, and their costs will thus be lower, l suspect. :cry:
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
In USA, qualifying for this and that can mean being on the A or B team rather than the C team, which affects both your federation funding and next year's event assignments. It figures into Body of Work.

Advantages will differ in other countries, I suspect.
Definitely agree on the Body of Work part. Some got GP assignements when turning seniors because they got in JGPF.
 

ladyjane

Medalist
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Country
Netherlands
In a 'normal' season, it really is quite prestiguous to make the JGPF. Indeed, only 6 skaters but out of a big pool of youngsters with JGPs from a diverse group of skaters which means that using placements is not an issue under discussion. However, it is now because of (1) the problem with the French JGPs, and (2) the lack of Japanese skaters. I think everybody involved is thinking about the way to go forward without discriminating against any results/placements achieved. I personally (and, haha, that's just me) would think it to be a pity if there is no JGPF . Never mind all the monetary benefits (although the skaters would wish for them) or the limited number of skaters in the event. It's usually a thing of pride to be able to qualify for the final on the basis of placements, and I still think it should be something to proud of. I would prefer another way than just cancelling it. The juniors have had too much cancellations lately.
 

SnowWhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Country
Canada
The JGPF also has ranking points available (higher points than the regular JGPs), which can be valuable for increasing your World Standing. And the WS, among other things, can guarantee at least one GP event, if you're top 24.

And, on the experience side, it has something different than a regular JGP, especially since the top seniors are also there.
 

4everchan

Observer
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
People saying that JGPF is just for fun and gives nothing have not been competitive athletes. Athletes train for these opportunities... It's part of their motivation... part of goal setting, they plan to peak at the time of these important competitions... it gives a structure to their season.... it's more than money, and qualification to other events or world standing points etc... it's really in the essence of an athlete to be competing.... so denying them what they train for is not good IMHO.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
The JGPF also has ranking points available (higher points than the regular JGPs), which can be valuable for increasing your World Standing. And the WS, among other things, can guarantee at least one GP event, if you're top 24.


And, on the experience side, it has something different than a regular JGP, especially since the top seniors are also there.
I think it's okay to restructure WS points around JWC instead of JGPF. To me, it actually makes much more sense to let the skaters experience the senior worlds - which is to say hold senior and junior worlds together at the same place, instead of JGPF+GPF. That way, you don't limit the experience of skating with top seniors to just six junior skaters each - this experience, IMO, would be very valuable indeed, especially in the vein of promoting skating to juniors who come from countries that usually have poorer skating traditions.

I've actually not understood why we don't see JWC and WC in the same location, like we do with JGPF+GPF. I am guessing money, but they usually go to the trouble of getting an entirely new location for the JWC anyway 😅

This might be less of a consideration to some - but early December JGPF is also when there's school in some countries. Senior skaters can do whatever they like IMO, but I do think it's (much) more of a consideration with juniors.
 

SnowWhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Country
Canada
I think it's okay to restructure WS points around JWC instead of JGPF. To me, it actually makes much more sense to let the skaters experience the senior worlds - which is to say hold senior and junior worlds together at the same place, instead of JGPF+GPF. That way, you don't limit the experience of skating with top seniors to just six junior skaters each - this experience, IMO, would be very valuable indeed, especially in the vein of promoting skating to juniors who come from countries that usually have poorer skating traditions.

I've actually not understood why we don't see JWC and WC in the same location, like we do with JGPF+GPF. I am guessing money, but they usually go to the trouble of getting an entirely new location for the JWC anyway 😅

This might be less of a consideration to some - but early December JGPF is also when there's school in some countries. Senior skaters can do whatever they like IMO, but I do think it's (much) more of a consideration with juniors.
Logistics? There's a fairly big difference between 6 skaters of each discipline, and a full worlds field. At the GPF, there are 36 senior athletes and 36 juniors. At the last JW, there were 34 men, 47 women, 16 pairs and 29 dance teams, so 171 athletes. At Worlds, there were 180 total. It's a completely different situation. When you consider practice ice and everything, it would be hard to find hosts who could accommodate that. And Worlds would take way longer. It would likely cost more, because the venues chosen for Worlds need to be bigger than Jr Worlds, which doesn't draw that much of an audience. Also, lots of skaters compete at both JW and Sr Worlds, so it would hurt smaller federations if they couldn't do that. Whereas you're only allowed to do one of the GP or JGP series, so it doesn't matter for the final

Having them together wouldn't make a lot of sense. A combined JGPF and GPF makes more sense.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Also, lots of skaters compete at both JW and Sr Worlds, so it would hurt smaller federations if they couldn't do that. Whereas you're only allowed to do one of the GP or JGP series, so it doesn't matter for the final
Good point, well taken.

Logistics? There's a fairly big difference between 6 skaters of each discipline, and a full worlds field. At the GPF, there are 36 senior athletes and 36 juniors. At the last JW, there were 34 men, 47 women, 16 pairs and 29 dance teams, so 171 athletes. At Worlds, there were 180 total. It's a completely different situation. When you consider practice ice and everything, it would be hard to find hosts who could accommodate that. And Worlds would take way longer
I get it. I wish it were less about cost, that's all I can say there.
 

yelyoh

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Not on topic but does anyone know where the Jr Grand Prix standings are listed? There have been five comps so far and the ISU does not have a section AFAIK.
 

SnowWhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Country
Canada
Not on topic but does anyone know where the Jr Grand Prix standings are listed? There have been five comps so far and the ISU does not have a section AFAIK.
The standings depend on what method is being used to rank them, and the ISU hasn't announced what they're doing for that, since they can't use the usual with a lot of skaters not having been able to go to France.
 

yelyoh

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
The standings depend on what method is being used to rank them, and the ISU hasn't announced what they're doing for that, since they can't use the usual with a lot of skaters not having been able to go to France.
Thank you!!
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
I wish they did make their decision by now, because after the initial confusion with the French Stage, things had been settled down. Not setting up the criteria almost looks like they will wait till the end to see how placing and scores both rank up.

do we have a thread at all with the top 6 scores so far in each discipline?
 

Jontor

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Country
Sweden
I think the fairest system is to go by total points for the qualification to JGPF.

But I have a suspect feeling that they will simply re-assign Russian skaters results to events they were supposed to be at. Like Zhilina and Petrosian at Courchevel I, and maybe Akatieva and Samodelkina at Courchevel II. Which means those French podiums will change retrospecitvely.
And then they can have the normal point system.

Whatever they do, it's a shame the Japanese federation pulled out of the whole JGP, and I think they did that just because of the French debacle.
 
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