ISU Where Will Worlds BE (formerly) JAPAN QUAKE FOR WORLDS

[demarinis5]

Phil Hersh

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[Serious Business]

Huzzah! We have a location and a date!

As for the idea that the popularity of figure skating in the US depends solely on the country producing a dominant ladies champion, not true. Back in the 80s, the most famous and celebrated US skaters were Scott Hamilton and Brian Boitano (who both won Olympic gold and were the ones to beat whenever they skated). At the same time, US ladies were saddled with a string of also-rans and headcases like Debi Thomas, Rosalyn Sumners and Jill Trenary. It wasn't until Kristi Yamaguchi that the US produced another dominant female skater, and her popularity at that time was dampened by racism, and Brian Boitano was still the star (she did achieve greater success later on thanks to her undeniable charisma and pluck).

Fast forward to now, what do we have? A bunch of headcases and also-rans in the US ladies, while the US men produced an Olympic champion who won in a heated and very close battle. This is not all that dissimilar to Boitano's rise. And yet things couldn't be more different. Figure skating coverage is all but dead in the US, with Lysacek's World win not even televised live despite it taking place in Los Angeles. And whereas Boitano got his own television specials and performed at the Super Bowl, Lysacek lost on the d-list reality show Dancing with the Stars and does half his appearances and endorsements overseas. This can't be blamed on the skaters. There are larger cultural shifts going on in the USA.

And btw, Hernando, Plushenko is HOOJ in Russia. He's an elected official and continues to be a megastar in the country, he is the biggest figure skating star in Russia ever in any discipline. Yagudin, on the other hand, suffered from years of rumors and attacks on his patriotism, and is far less popular in Russia than Plush.

At this point, I'm not sure a dominant US female skater could revive the sport's popularity either. Look at the similar (though not identical) sport of gymnastics, where the US produced the magnificent women's all around Olympic champion Nastia Liukin and the charming Shawn Johnson, both crushingly powerful competitors back when they competed. Both of them are also quite popular. And yet gymnastics isn't exactly getting back its airtime on broadcast TV.

In my evaluation, it comes down to the fact that arts education and appreciation is totally gutted from the public sector for the past few decades. We now have multi-generations of Americans raised on primarily commercial art, which is art that doesn't require a lot of patience or knowledge, little nuances to take note of, and often doesn't require a lot of skill to produce a successful product. Asking people used to that form of art to pay attention to figure skating, which does require some patience to enjoy, a lot of knowledge to understand, tiny nuances that make a big difference and require years of training and skill to excel at... It's not going to work. However, I hope and think that will change. That there will be a swing back from the suffocating corporatism that overruns the US, and that the country will produce newer generations more receptive to figure skating.

Also please to stop blaming skating's decline in the US on media fragmentation. After all, the sport is popular in Japan and South Korea where (vastly more advanced) cell phones dispense short form novels, web postings (from much faster home connections) become blockbuster movies and urinals are video games!

 

[dorispulaski]

So what are the Canadian skaters who want to compete at Worlds going to do? The whole of Worlds is during CSOI. May 1st is the London, Ontario stop? Has Skate Canada made any announcements?

 

[janetfan]

1. I've often wondered if figure skating would be more popular in Canada with a recognized, medal contending lady skater consistently.
I don't think so.

Canada, on the whole, is more successful in pairs and in dance than the USA.

.

The whole post was interesting.

I would say you are speculating about how Canada would embrace a consistent Lady contender for Gold as opposed to the occassional contender for bronze or silver. I will speculate right back at you and suggest you are wrong.

But who knows? Are we discussing our personal taste or looking at the big picture?

Thinking of Pairs in the modern era how many WCs or OCs has Canada produced?
USA had a WC and has won the occasional medal. I think if you are talking about the last few years Canadian Pairs teams do not seem very special to me. Maybe I am forgetting a team :think:

Canadian Men have been innovators but still no OGM that I can recall.
Going back to Button USA Men have won seven OGMs, the most in the post war era.
That is 7 for USA and zip for Canadian Men.

To be honest that is such an overwhelming lead I doubt if you will ever catch USA or if so it will take a century or two

I have no doubt that Russians would embrace an Ice Queen particularly one like Adelina who is stunningly stylish for a 14 year old. Sorry if I favor Adelina over Liza, but Liza just looks like a 12 year old at this point. Perhaps she will be the better senior skater but she does not look very mature yet.

 

[Jammers]

Huzzah! We have a location and a date!

As for the idea that the popularity of figure skating in the US depends solely on the country producing a dominant ladies champion, not true. Back in the 80s, the most famous and celebrated US skaters were Scott Hamilton and Brian Boitano (who both won Olympic gold and were the ones to beat whenever they skated). At the same time, US ladies were saddled with a string of also-rans and headcases like Debi Thomas, Rosalyn Sumners and Jill Trenary. It wasn't until Kristi Yamaguchi that the US produced another dominant female skater, and her popularity at that time was dampened by racism, and Brian Boitano was still the star (she did achieve greater success later on thanks to her undeniable charisma and pluck).

Fast forward to now, what do we have? A bunch of headcases and also-rans in the US ladies, while the US men produced an Olympic champion who won in a heated and very close battle. This is not all that dissimilar to Boitano's rise. And yet things couldn't be more different. Figure skating coverage is all but dead in the US, with Lysacek's World win not even televised live despite it taking place in Los Angeles. And whereas Boitano got his own television specials and performed at the Super Bowl, Lysacek lost on the d-list reality show Dancing with the Stars and does half his appearances and endorsements overseas. This can't be blamed on the skaters. There are larger cultural shifts going on in the USA.

And btw, Hernando, Plushenko is HOOJ in Russia. He's an elected official and continues to be a megastar in the country, he is the biggest figure skating star in Russia ever in any discipline. Yagudin, on the other hand, suffered from years of rumors and attacks on his patriotism, and is far less popular in Russia than Plush.

At this point, I'm not sure a dominant US female skater could revive the sport's popularity either. Look at the similar (though not identical) sport of gymnastics, where the US produced the magnificent women's all around Olympic champion Nastia Liukin and the charming Shawn Johnson, both crushingly powerful competitors back when they competed. Both of them are also quite popular. And yet gymnastics isn't exactly getting back its airtime on broadcast TV.

In my evaluation, it comes down to the fact that arts education and appreciation is totally gutted from the public sector for the past few decades. We now have multi-generations of Americans raised on primarily commercial art, which is art that doesn't require a lot of patience or knowledge, little nuances to take note of, and often doesn't require a lot of skill to produce a successful product. Asking people used to that form of art to pay attention to figure skating, which does require some patience to enjoy, a lot of knowledge to understand, tiny nuances that make a big difference and require years of training and skill to excel at... It's not going to work. However, I hope and think that will change. That there will be a swing back from the suffocating corporatism that overruns the US, and that the country will produce newer generations more receptive to figure skating.

Also please to stop blaming skating's decline in the US on media fragmentation. After all, the sport is popular in Japan and South Korea where (vastly more advanced) cell phones dispense short form novels, web postings (from much faster home connections) become blockbuster movies and urinals are video games!

I disagree with you about the US ladies in the 80's being also-rans. Maybe they didn't win the Olympic gold medal but they were much more competitive then we are now. They won world championships and medals and Olympics medals and were usually top contenders. When is the last time this crop of girls has won a Olympic or World medal? Never. Nuff said.

 

[janetfan]

I disagree with you about the US ladies in the 80's being also-rans. Maybe they didn't win the Olympic gold medal but they were much more competitive then we are now. They won world championships and medals and Olympics medals and were usually top contenders. When is the last time this crop of girls has won a Olympic or World medal? Never. Nuff said.

Hello, duh

USA Ladies won silver at the 80 Olympics, silver at the 84 Olympics and bronze at the '88 Olympics. In each competition they were serious contenders for the Gold.

I think someone has no idea what they are talking about.
Then again, anyone that uses the term "gulag" to describe music education in USA is obvioulsy not only misinformed but shows a total lack of vocabulary, :sheesh:

L

 

[seniorita]

And btw, Hernando, Plushenko is HOOJ in Russia.

To remember my old habits, Plushy has been accused of many things but he is not a HOOJ (=whatever that means ..doesnt sound good )

I read on FSu that him and Rodnina and one more athlete from another sport are among 22 selected Russian people that they will enter a spaceship... Or sent to the moon, far far away or something. I m sure it is Pissev idea to get rid of them

 

[janetfan]

To remember my old habits, Plushy has been accused of many things but he is not a HOOJ (=whatever that means ..doesnt sound good )

I read on FSu that him and Rodnina and one more athlete from another sport are among 22 selected Russian people that they will enter a spaceship... Or sent to the moon, far far away or something. I m sure it is Pissev idea to get rid of them

Perhaps on the moon with it's lack of gravity Plush will finally show us these wonder jumps he claims to land in practice.

Serioulsy though, Plushenko is one of the all-time greats. I hope he competes in Sochi.

 

[Serious Business]

To remember my old habits, Plushy has been accused of many things but he is not a HOOJ (=whatever that means ..doesnt sound good

It means he's REALLY huge.

And Hernando, I can overlook your deficiencies in basic reading comprehension, common sense, and grasp of reality, but trying to defend the state of US public education? K... I'm just going to back away slowly now and ignore you.

 

[Jammers]

Your 'cynical' view is shared by Shizuka Arakawa.

She said, in the televised 'talk show' with Daisuke Takahashi several weeks ago, that although she was first and utmost supporting and rooting for Japanese skaters, she was at the same time worried that continuous dominance of Japanese single skaters might result in decline of popularity of the sport in the rest of the world. (Kudos to her for saying this all in public, I thought!)

She also said elsewhere that one of the main reasons why she was putting so much effort into popularising ice shows in Japan now was for the longevity of the interest in figure skating - she understands that the current figure skating boom in Japan depends on the success of the competitive skaters, and the popularity of figure skating (including non-competitive kind) is needed should the day come when Japanese athletes are not successful. I trust her words as she has first-hand experience of the days when figure skating was not enjoying much attention in her own country, and is aware the resurgence of the popularity is part attributed to her own success, winning the gold in the 2006 Olympics.

Shizuka Arakawa does know that compared to the US dominance in ladies skating that Japan are pretenders right? Japan has been the strongest country for ladies in the last 5 years of so right? The US was dominate with very few off years going back to the early 50's. I didn't see the rest of the world giving up during that time.

 

[seniorita]

It means he's REALLY huge.
.

oh sorry, thats a good thing then! and I learnt a new word today!

 

[Robeye]

Huzzah! We have a location and a date!

As for the idea that the popularity of figure skating in the US depends solely on the country producing a dominant ladies champion, not true. Back in the 80s, the most famous and celebrated US skaters were Scott Hamilton and Brian Boitano (who both won Olympic gold and were the ones to beat whenever they skated). At the same time, US ladies were saddled with a string of also-rans and headcases like Debi Thomas, Rosalyn Sumners and Jill Trenary. It wasn't until Kristi Yamaguchi that the US produced another dominant female skater, and her popularity at that time was dampened by racism, and Brian Boitano was still the star (she did achieve greater success later on thanks to her undeniable charisma and pluck).

Fast forward to now, what do we have? A bunch of headcases and also-rans in the US ladies, while the US men produced an Olympic champion who won in a heated and very close battle. This is not all that dissimilar to Boitano's rise. And yet things couldn't be more different. Figure skating coverage is all but dead in the US, with Lysacek's World win not even televised live despite it taking place in Los Angeles. And whereas Boitano got his own television specials and performed at the Super Bowl, Lysacek lost on the d-list reality show Dancing with the Stars and does half his appearances and endorsements overseas. This can't be blamed on the skaters. There are larger cultural shifts going on in the USA.

And btw, Hernando, Plushenko is HOOJ in Russia. He's an elected official and continues to be a megastar in the country, he is the biggest figure skating star in Russia ever in any discipline. Yagudin, on the other hand, suffered from years of rumors and attacks on his patriotism, and is far less popular in Russia than Plush.

At this point, I'm not sure a dominant US female skater could revive the sport's popularity either. Look at the similar (though not identical) sport of gymnastics, where the US produced the magnificent women's all around Olympic champion Nastia Liukin and the charming Shawn Johnson, both crushingly powerful competitors back when they competed. Both of them are also quite popular. And yet gymnastics isn't exactly getting back its airtime on broadcast TV.

In my evaluation, it comes down to the fact that arts education and appreciation is totally gutted from the public sector for the past few decades. We now have multi-generations of Americans raised on primarily commercial art, which is art that doesn't require a lot of patience or knowledge, little nuances to take note of, and often doesn't require a lot of skill to produce a successful product. Asking people used to that form of art to pay attention to figure skating, which does require some patience to enjoy, a lot of knowledge to understand, tiny nuances that make a big difference and require years of training and skill to excel at... It's not going to work. However, I hope and think that will change. That there will be a swing back from the suffocating corporatism that overruns the US, and that the country will produce newer generations more receptive to figure skating.

This is another interesting point of view, and merits serious consideration, IMO.

-Scott Hamilton and Brian Boitano were winners, and won in energetic style and under nailbiting competition, respectively. If the point is that general principles don't always overdetermine individual circumstances, I agree with you. There were "hooks" to both their stories that could be (and were) used for media purposes to good effect. Nevertheless, I would suggest that relative to, say, a Dorothy Hamill, their recognition and popularity among the broader audience was far less. And this was in an era when media platforms were both fewer in number and more highly concentrated, allowing for greater message penetration. And, as you point out, they were champions in an era when there were no American ladies counterparts to steal their thunder. If there had been, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the thunder would have been heisted, sure as sin. I say this clinically, not as a normative judgment. And your own analysis of Kristi Yamaguchi's initially tepid reception is persuasive in showing why she was an exception that proves the rule, was in some ways a transitional figure in America's coming to terms with race in their sporting idols, particularly for the role of ice queen and America's darling. Kristi cracked the door open halfway, and Michelle finished the job.

Evan's quandary is that he represented the perfect storm of factors that result in (American) media/audience apathy: he was a men's skater, he didn't win in a way that could be presented as eye-catching (and I'm not trying to make a judgment on the quality of his skates, but which I thought were excellent, by the way; this is just a straight PR analysis), and frankly, his is not the most, um, mediagenic of personalities. Summation: there was no obvious hook to his story. But further, even if he were a more "exciting" champion, I would posit that his celebrity would only have been marginally greater. On the other hand, to do a little thought experiment, what would the Q-ratings (and Nielsens) have been if Michelle had won gold in SLC and/or Nagano? Or if Sasha, or Alissa or Mirai were OGM winners? Or if Yuna were an American? I suppose this is the kind of "what if" on which we can disagree, but my instincts tell me that the level of adulation would have been of a different sort entirely.

-While I would not dismiss out of hand the thesis that the decline in the popularity of skating is of a piece with the lack of familiarity with, and taste for, the fine arts, I'm not fully convinced that this is a primary factor. The bemoaning of American artistic sophistication (or rather the lack thereof) has been a familiar refrain that goes at least as far back as the time when what Elvis and Bill Haley were doing was still known as "rock-a-billy". And personally, I think it's hard to argue that the counterculture 60's and 70's, when Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill were becoming iconic, were significantly more "into" the fine arts than now.

JMO, but while it may be that America still hasn't fully erased the gender boxes in terms who it chooses to worship as figure skating celebrities, if a ladies skater that walks, talks and looks like the ideal of a champion (and has all the hardware to prove it) were to appear, the public's embrace would be enthusiastic.

 

[Serious Business]

I disagree with you about the US ladies in the 80's being also-rans. Maybe they didn't win the Olympic gold medal but they were much more competitive then we are now. They won world championships and medals and Olympics medals and were usually top contenders. When is the last time this crop of girls has won a Olympic or World medal? Never. Nuff said.

Kimmie Meissner won Worlds in 2006, which did nothing to halt the decline of skating's popularity in the US or help the USFS secure better TV deals in the ensuring negotiations. The point is that the popularity of an entire sport in a country can't be blamed on the ever-shifting win/lose streaks of a few athletes in one discipline.

Even when the US had an absolute drought in every discipline after the Sabena crash, with no medalists in any discipline for a few seasons, the sport maintained its popularity and coverage in the US. The US is in vastly better shape in terms of medal prospects these days, and yet the popularity has evaporated. Can't blame the skaters.

 

[janetfan]

It means he's REALLY huge.

And Hernando, I can overlook your deficiencies in basic reading comprehension, common sense, and grasp of reality, but trying to defend the state of US public education? K... I'm just going to back away slowly now and ignore you.

Thanks, that's mighty kind of you.
And I was afraid you were going to gulag me.

Just curious, do you know anything, and I mean I am talking about the merest sliver of accurate information based on experience about the history and current state of music education in USA?

Here is a simple and fun question that I hope doesn't get me sent to the "gulag" of your mind

Can you explain to us why so many Asian music students come to study at American music conservatories?

If Asian music education and culture is as superior as you claim why don't American music students go to Korea, Japan and China to finish and polish their playing?

Can you explain why that despite this classical superirority that you are so sure about the best of the best Asian music students want and need to come to USA or European music conservatories to improve their playing :think: :think:

Do you think of schools like Julliard, Curtis, Eastman, Oberlin, etc as "gulags"

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What I am trashing is the ongoing and very successful attempts in America to dismantle its education system and discredit and shun traditional and non-commercial art. A symptom of that is the decline in figure skating's popularity in the country.

I agree, Paul McCarthey once said that European pop music is based on Brahms, Beethoven, etc, while American music follows Africa including the Carribbean. If you like pop (I do in small doses) enjoy both pop and serious musics. Certain composers of today, like Cage, are considered Serious music as well as so many after, Beethoven, Brahms, etc.

 

[Mathman]

Figure Skating is changing....but with Carmens, Romeo and Juliet and other classics, it is harder to take a leap forward when these songs are overplayed. In my opinion, Figure Skating needs to stop catering to it's classic, older, traditional audience and begin truly appealing to the youth of america.....imagine how much publicity a figure skating show with music from Lady Gaga would have? Belbin/Agosto had that experimental Hip-Hop routine as an exhib. a couple years ago.

I don't agree at all. If a young entertainment-seeker wants to go to a Lady Gaga concert, he will go to a Lady Gaga concert. Why mar the visual effects by having figure skaters out there blocking the view?

But if you go to a figure skating show, not only do you get to see some pretty skating, but also you might get to hear Carmen or Swan Lake -- something truly different! -- which otherwise a young person will never get to hear at all unless it's the ringtone on their iphone.

 

[Robeye]

I agree, Paul McCarthey once said that European pop music is based on Brahms, Beethoven, etc, while American music follows Africa including the Carribbean. If you like pop (I do in small doses) enjoy both pop and serious musics. Certain composers of today, like Cage, are considered Serious music as well as so many after, Beethoven, Brahms, etc.

I'd suggest that the wellspring of European pop music (to the extent that it is "pop") is American pop music, with a lineage more directly connected to Berry than Brahms, something that McCartney (as well as Lennon) have acknowledged.

 

[mot]

Shizuka Arakawa does know that compared to the US dominance in ladies skating that Japan are pretenders right? Japan has been the strongest country for ladies in the last 5 years of so right? The US was dominate with very few off years going back to the early 50's. I didn't see the rest of the world giving up during that time.

I am not surprised if Shizuka was not as knowledgeable about the reasons of the sport's popularity (she meant the media and public attention, I understand) in other countries, as those reside there. Apologise if I did not make it clearer, but the point I was trying to make was that she believes that the huge popularity of / media and public attention towards figure skating in Japan was based on the success of the competitive Japanese skaters - as skfan suggested. Shizuka was simply, possibly mistakenly, inferring the same is the case in other countries.

Having said that, I am standing by my applause for her for considering the popularity of the sport in the world, not thinking about Japan only.

On a separate note, what I find fascinating is that it seems how figure skating is perceived differs in various countries. I think it is principally a sport in Japan, therefore winning counts. But according to some posters here, in other countries, it is more about beauty (of the skaters) or art or history / traditions?

 

[janetfan]

I'd suggest that the wellspring of European pop music (to the extent that it is "pop") is American pop music, with a lineage more directly connected to Berry than Brahms, something that McCartney (as well as Lennon) have acknowledged.

Bravo, I couldn't agree more.

Lennon and McCartney worshipped at the feet of Chuck Berry, and were also influenced by the Beach Boys and Bob Dylan.

What, am I crazy!
In Paul's own words, "Back in the USSR" = Chuck Berry meets the "Beach Boys."

The "Rubber Soul" album was in part an answer to critcism from Dylan about the "Beatles" lack of originality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4-16zxVMw0

 

[Serious Business]

-While I would not dismiss out of hand the thesis that the decline in the popularity of skating is of a piece with the lack of familiarity with, and taste for, the fine arts, I'm not fully convinced that this is a primary factor. The bemoaning of American artistic sophistication (or rather the lack thereof) has been a familiar refrain that goes at least as far back as the time when what Elvis and Bill Haley were doing was still known as "rock-a-billy". And personally, I think it's hard to argue that the counterculture 60's and 70's, when Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill were becoming iconic, were significantly more "into" the fine arts than now.

I don't mean it as a value judgment of which art is better. I wouldn't even use the words high or low art, just commercial vs. non-commercial art (which aren't totally accurate either, as one is just more commercially orientated than the other). Art that pleases vs. art that challenges. With that in mind...

I vigorously disagree that 1960's and 70's for the US was a lull in less commercially orientated art, which is at least a big part of the counter cultural movement. And in terms of more traditional art forms, Nuruyev and Baryshnikov became household names in the US, while I don't think a ballet dancer has been household names in the US for a few decades now. Avant garde composer John Cage rose to fame and appeared all over, even on a game show. Andy Warhol and Jasper Johns, though not exactly the highest of brows nor the most non-commercial, created works that became famous despite being rather challenging for the average viewer. We no longer have a space for that in the mainstream in the US for a while now. That is a huge difference.