ISU Where Will Worlds BE (formerly) JAPAN QUAKE FOR WORLDS

[Olympia]

Your words remind me of the saying, "necessity is the mother of invention."

A favorite scene of mine from the film "Apollo 13" happens towards the end when a Nasa official says to the flight director, "this mission is a real disaster."

The flight director, played by Ed Harris replies, "to the contrary, this will be remembered as our finest hour." :yes:

Oh, yeah! Great parallel. I'm sure the electricity of the occasion will make this an amazing Worlds. Just the fact that somehow the event got rescheduled will give all the skaters an extra rush of adrenaline.

As for the commercialization of the arts, I mostly agree. But people surprise you. Look how popular ballroom dancing has become on TV, in Dancing with the Stars. Ballroom dancing is not high art, of course, but it is a very high degree of technical training, and what's more, it's not a man's sport. Yet male pro dancers like Maks Chmerkovsky and Derek Hough have become popular in their own right. And (thanks to clever choices by the producers) football players, boxers, and even a race car driver have participated and brought in male fans, and some of these jocks have actually won the season. There's a way to make skating sparkle again too; we just haven't found it yet.

Joe, we have to pump your brain to hear about some of the amazing dancers and singers you've seen over the years. I can just imagine the list!

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

The whole post was interesting.

I would say you are speculating about how Canada would embrace a consistent Lady contender for Gold as opposed to the occassional contender for bronze or silver. I will speculate right back at you and suggest you are wrong.

I think Canada WOULD embrace a lady skater. It's not that. But does the sport suffer because we lack that? I'd wager not

But who knows? Are we discussing our personal taste or looking at the big picture?

My personal taste influences how I see the big picture as I'm observing it from one perspective.

Thinking of Pairs in the modern era how many WCs or OCs has Canada produced?
USA had a WC and has won the occasional medal. I think if you are talking about the last few years Canadian Pairs teams do not seem very special to me. Maybe I am forgetting a team :think:

Modern era? Underhill/Martini. World Champion at Home in 1984 followed by a very admired professional career when that still mattered.

Eisler/Brasseur. World Champion in 1993 and two time Olympic medalists, including at the 1994 Olympics, generally regarded as one of the best pairs competition in history - where of the top six, five teams went on to win a world championship (or were prior winners).

Sale/Pelletier. World Champion and Olympic Gold Medalists

It's not just about results, though. All three of these teams had an impact on the Canadian imagination in some way. Regardless of your personal feelings, can you really say that about any of the American pairs in the same time period?

Canadian Men have been innovators but still no OGM that I can recall.
Going back to Button USA Men have won seven OGMs, the most in the post war era.
That is 7 for USA and zip for Canadian Men.

To be honest that is such an overwhelming lead I doubt if you will ever catch USA or if so it will take a century or two

And now you're misunderstanding me. Keep in mind that Canada's 1/10 the size of the USA population wise. Realistically, we shouldn't be close.

Secondly, Canada has a women OGM (Barbara Ann Scott). Would you argue that makes the Canadian ladies more successful then the Canadian men? Of course not.

Impact on the public imagination (what we're discussing) goes beyond the Olympics/Worlds/etc. Can you really argue against that?

I will be floored if we ever catch the USA in terms of OGM in virtually any discipline/sport.

I have no doubt that Russians would embrace an Ice Queen particularly one like Adelina who is stunningly stylish for a 14 year old. Sorry if I favor Adelina over Liza, but Liza just looks like a 12 year old at this point. Perhaps she will be the better senior skater but she does not look very mature yet.

I don't watch juniors. I hate watching juniors.

But my question is not would the public embrace an ice queen. The question is that is one necessary for the sport's popularity/enhancement. In the USA, I'd argue absolutely. In Canada/Russia, I'd argue otherwise.

This is another interesting point of view, and merits serious consideration, IMO.

-Scott Hamilton and Brian Boitano were winners, and won in energetic style and under nailbiting competition, respectively. If the point is that general principles don't always overdetermine individual circumstances, I agree with you. There were "hooks" to both their stories that could be (and were) used for media purposes to good effect. Nevertheless, I would suggest that relative to, say, a Dorothy Hamill, their recognition and popularity among the broader audience was far less. And this was in an era when media platforms were both fewer in number and more highly concentrated, allowing for greater message penetration. And, as you point out, they were champions in an era when there were no American ladies counterparts to steal their thunder. If there had been, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the thunder would have been heisted, sure as sin. I say this clinically, not as a normative judgment. And your own analysis of Kristi Yamaguchi's initially tepid reception is persuasive in showing why she was an exception that proves the rule, was in some ways a transitional figure in America's coming to terms with race in their sporting idols, particularly for the role of ice queen and America's darling. Kristi cracked the door open halfway, and Michelle finished the job.

Evan's quandary is that he represented the perfect storm of factors that result in (American) media/audience apathy: he was a men's skater, he didn't win in a way that could be presented as eye-catching (and I'm not trying to make a judgment on the quality of his skates, but which I thought were excellent, by the way; this is just a straight PR analysis), and frankly, his is not the most, um, mediagenic of personalities. Summation: there was no obvious hook to his story. But further, even if he were a more "exciting" champion, I would posit that his celebrity would only have been marginally greater. On the other hand, to do a little thought experiment, what would the Q-ratings (and Nielsens) have been if Michelle had won gold in SLC and/or Nagano? Or if Sasha, or Alissa or Mirai were OGM winners? Or if Yuna were an American? I suppose this is the kind of "what if" on which we can disagree, but my instincts tell me that the level of adulation would have been of a different sort entirely.

-While I would not dismiss out of hand the thesis that the decline in the popularity of skating is of a piece with the lack of familiarity with, and taste for, the fine arts, I'm not fully convinced that this is a primary factor. The bemoaning of American artistic sophistication (or rather the lack thereof) has been a familiar refrain that goes at least as far back as the time when what Elvis and Bill Haley were doing was still known as "rock-a-billy". And personally, I think it's hard to argue that the counterculture 60's and 70's, when Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill were becoming iconic, were significantly more "into" the fine arts than now.

JMO, but while it may be that America still hasn't fully erased the gender boxes in terms who it chooses to worship as figure skating celebrities, if a ladies skater that walks, talks and looks like the ideal of a champion (and has all the hardware to prove it) were to appear, the public's embrace would be enthusiastic.

I agree, though I do think that the refrain as a lot more merit now than at any other time in history, but that's another post.

 

[bigsisjiejie]

Back to the topic again. I think Moscow sounds like a great choice, with the ace up its sleeve being the backing of Putin/the government. I have every faith that Moscow and the Russian Federation, and all the rest of the related system apparatus are going to pull together a great Worlds in record-breaking time. If they need to take shortcuts on the fluff back-of-the-house parts of the WC week that doesn't affect the skaters, I'd give them a pass.

(Though we'll have to wait until everything is wrapped up to assess, one byproduct of this situation maybe disproving the idea that it really takes years to organize and pull off a World Championships. )

 

[janetfan]

I think Canada WOULD embrace a lady skater. It's not that. But does the sport suffer because we lack that? I'd wager not

.

Hasn't Canada, if not much of the skating world embraced Joannie?

As to the Pairs you are right and I was wrong. I didn't forget one team, I forgot several terrific teams. :

 

[Mathman]

I will be floored if we ever catch the USA in terms of OGM in virtually any discipline/sport.

Curling. Canada 3, USA zip.

It's not just about results, though. All three of these teams had an impact on the Canadian imagination in some way. Regardless of your personal feelings, can you really say that about any of the American pairs in the same time period?

The only time the U.S. public even noticed that there was such a thing as pairs skating was when Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner exploded onto the scene. It just seemed like a Hollywood script. The brilliant American kids, struggling their way up through the school of hard knocks, take on the Evil Red Machine. They definitely grabbed the contry's imagination.

But I agree with your point. In the United States, you have to win something big to attract the attention of the public. Maybe this isn't so much the case elsewhere. (I think it is in Russia, though -- the Russians don't count silver and bronze.)

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think it is in Russia, though -- the Russians don't count silver and bronze.

Who cares about silver and bronze when you can have platinum?

 

[Nadine]

Here's Hersh's take on it: http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com...skate-worlds-japan-catastrophe-cancelled.html


Lol, I find it totally bizarre how we both feel essentially the same way, when I can't stand Phil, the big "L". Can't say I will miss reading his articles posted on figure skating either. Still, I wish him well.

And everybody here as well, including the entire skating community.

I'm off, cancelled my IN subscription on Tuesday and this one I wanted to as well, but it's not possible. My love of skating has died along with the human beings swept away by the tsunami, it honestly wouldn't have mattered if Worlds was cancelled, still feel the same way. Though I will always feel that it should have been cancelled in honor of Japan.

Vaya con Dios.

 

[Olympia]

Nadine, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope someday skating will claim you again, but I certainly understand your strong emotional response to recent events. While such feelings have probably brought some of us closer to skating, because it's a moment of beauty (and now of victory, I think) in the face of such loss, everyone reacts differently. We'll keep a place for you at the table.

 

[Olympia]

I will be floored if we ever catch the USA in terms of OGM in virtually any discipline/sport.

Pogue, for shame! What about hockey, both men's and women's? I stand up for Canada on your behalf.

Actually, I've always felt part Canadian when it comes to rooting for skaters. I've adopted most of the Canadian skating team: they seem to have an essence that comes through in all their skaters. The men and pairs especially appeal to me, both in general and in the case of particular skaters. I've long been an immense fan of Underhill/Martini and Sale/Pelletier, and Kurt Browning is probably now and forever my favorite men's skater. (Besides, Kurt does have a gold--that wonderful maple leaf that his Canadian fans made for him out of their own melted-down jewelry. So there.) I love Buttle, Orser, Sandhu (when he doesn't crash and burn) and Chan. Your ice dancers rock, as well, and Rochette has just gotten better and better. Plus my two favorite choreographers, Lori Nichol and David Wilson, are Canadian, I believe. In terms of proportion, Canada is much more behind its skaters than the U.S. generally is, and I appreciate that. I think Canada is one of the premier skating countries, and long may it remain so.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I guarantee most Posters will consider a 'clean' program to be high art. I question whether they have ever seen high art. A clean program will indeed show high sport.:thumbsup:

Get into the sport and get rid of the music which so few can follow and feel. : The Galas will show what high art is considered in figure skating, :think:

 

[Mathman]

I guarantee most Posters will consider a 'clean' program to be high art. I question whether they have ever seen high art.

Joe, when you post like this you seem to be expressing contempt for your fellow Golden Skate members. To what purpose?

 

[Dodhiyel]

Words fail me. Eyes wet.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/25/dangerous-breach-suspected-japan-nuclear-plant/
Dangerous Breach Suspected at Japan Nuclear Plant

*and*

USGS site shows earthquake of 6.4 near the east coast of Japan (107 km/66 miles from Sendai) at 11:36:25 UTC today, which is equal to
7:36:24 a.m. Eastern Time this morning. The report is computer-generated, no seismologist review yet.

It is not over.

I have still to read CNN and Yahoo reports, and reports throughout today, which may give details/explanation.

 

[janetfan]

Joe, when you post like this you seem to be expressing contempt for your fellow Golden Skate members. To what purpose?

Speaking for just myself Joe's post made me look up this clip and watch it with my morning coffee:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58HTu9iwgrI

I enjoyed it so thanks Joe.

I don't know how many fans consider figure skating "high art." I think many fans think of skating as a sport that blends music, dance elements and theatrical expression in an attempt to create something that is both athletic and artistic.

I have no need to categorize Mao's Chopin program. I don't feel the need to take it apart and try to reconstruct it in my mind to make it better. I don't have to compare it to other skaters or other artforms, or to place it on my "art meter" to measure it.

I just like watching it, seeing how gracefully she glides across the ice to a piece of music I am so fond of. It's skating and for me at times there is nothing quite like it.

 

[Dodhiyel]

....I just like watching it, seeing how gracefully she glides across the ice to a piece of music I am so fond of. It's skating and for me at times there is nothing quite like it.

Thanks, Hernando. I love seeing Mao skate with confidence again. To me, figure skating has the beauty and strength of ballet, with the addition of the glide, which creates a whole new set of aesthetic possibilities. To make what is supremely difficult look effortless, easy, graceful and/or puissant, for me that is the purpose. When I used to watch pole vaulting and high jumping, it was simple: just clear the bar. When I watch really fine figure skating, it is not simple; it is like a dream on ice, a fantasy. For many programmes, CoP has caused the sacrifice of beauty to a frenetic series of movements that are not pleasing. There are very few skaters able to rise above that limitation, and give me the beauty I love. Galas permit that beauty to exist, but galas are often not televised in the US, and often not shown in streaming online. Thank goodness there is YouTube.

 

[Mathman]

Speaking for just myself Joe's post made me look up this clip and watch it with my morning coffee:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58HTu9iwgrI

I enjoyed it so thanks Joe.

Let me just say one more thing and then I'll stp out of it. Compare these two sentences.

I guarantee most Posters will consider a 'clean' program to be high art.

"Just because a skater skates a clean performance doesn't make it high art."

And these:

I question whether they have ever seen high art.

"I do not regard figure skating as being high art at all."

 

[jatale]

...I just like watching it, seeing how gracefully she glides across the ice to a piece of music I am so fond of. It's skating and for me at times there is nothing quite like it.

Thanks for the video of Mao. Very beautiful skating! It does drive me nuts, however, when commentators constantly talk over the music, it totally ruins the blend of skating and music which is essential in creating the "artistic fusion" that is central to a skating performance. Imagine if a ballet was constantly interrupted by announcements over the sound system! Ugh!!!

I really believe that comments on skating performances should be done after the performance is done, while a skater is waiting for his/her/their marks if it is a competition. For ice-show galas, comments should be done between performances not during the actual skating.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I guarantee most Posters will consider a 'clean' program to be high art. I question whether they have ever seen high art. A clean program will indeed show high sport.:thumbsup:

Get into the sport and get rid of the music which so few can follow and feel. The Galas will show what high art is considered in figure skating,

Joe, I wish I could be still posting like you when I reach my 80s. You are amazing!:thumbsup:

However, there are far more people who know what the true high art is than you think and believe. I completely agree with Mathman said in this:

"Just because a skater skates a clean performance doesn't make it high art."

"I do not regard figure skating as being high art at all."

And I agree with Hernando said. Most of us regard figure skating as a sport first. I love this aspect of it very much. artistic aspect of this sport has made it uniquely attractive because many of us, very likely could be all of us, love music and dance, more or less have the sense of artistry. Otherwise, we won't be here.

Words fail me. Eyes wet.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/25/dangerous-breach-suspected-japan-nuclear-plant/
Dangerous Breach Suspected at Japan Nuclear Plant

*and*

USGS site shows earthquake of 6.4 near the east coast of Japan (107 km/66 miles from Sendai) at 11:36:25 UTC today, which is equal to
7:36:24 a.m. Eastern Time this morning. The report is computer-generated, no seismologist review yet.

It is not over.

I have still to read CNN and Yahoo reports, and reports throughout today, which may give details/explanation.

Yeah, my heart is heavy!

But I'm so proud of the Japanese people! They could still maintain their dignity, help each other, and work together towards a common goal - no stealing and looting - amazing!:thumbsup:

 

[Ellen]

Huzzah! We have a location and a date!
...
Plushenko is HOOJ in Russia. He's continues to be a megastar in the country, he is the biggest figure skating star in Russia ever in any discipline. Yagudin, on the other hand, suffered from years of rumors and attacks on his patriotism, and is far less popular in Russia than Plush.

Not really. Then Irina Rodnina (pairs) should be considered the Megastar in FS as she has the absolute medals record. She is three times Olympic Gold medalist, 10-times World champion!

I would not agree that Plyushenko is more popular than Yagudin either. Past several years Alexei Yagudin has been performing so brilliantly in Russian Ice shows, TV series(!), he has even tried as leader of a TV program. Never heard anything bad about
his patriotism...
We do not see Evgeny P. that often now because he is mostly skating in shows abroad. But he puzzled everyone by his promise to return and win in Sochi

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Not really. Then Irina Rodnina (pairs) should be considered the Megastar in FS as she has the absolute medals record. She is three times Olympic Gold medalist, 10-times World champion!

Is she not a megastar? At least one legendary skate and an unimpeachable record.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, when you post like this you seem to be expressing contempt for your fellow Golden Skate members. To what purpose?

I would not use the word contempt. I would just sarcastically say when Cho Cho San commits suicide along with Tosca, and Odette , wow, I didn't know that. I'd like to see those kids grow up and interpret the music without reference to the story behind it. Otherwise it becomes too cutesy and precocious.

I'm using corrective criticism like a good critic.