Solo jump - flutz + step out
combo - double footed
slow, labored, terrible choreography.
She should be way lower than a bunch of new girls.
Ashley Wagner and Caroline Zhang ?
- Thread starter Jtsmith123
- Start date
Solo jump - flutz + step out
combo - double footed
slow, labored, terrible choreography.
She should be way lower than a bunch of new girls.
And I'll bet you're bosom buddies with Mama Zhang just like you are with the rest of all the other skating moms, aren't you?
I agree that, for the moment, it seems like both Caroline and Ashley are done (this is hard for me to acknowledge being a Caroline fan) but let's not use hearsay to substantiate our omniscient proclamations.
- Joined
- May 19, 2011
It sucks that two of the brighter stars for the US seem to be fading.
For Caroline, it's been too little too late. Had she started working on fixing her flip, lutz, axel and basics back in 2007 when she made the jump to senior, she'd probably be in better shape. Her team's inability to address her problems early have nearly killed her chances for a successful senior career. She's so far behind right now, I don't know that she'll ever catch up.
It's so sad because she was so amazing when she first showed up. She had beautiful lines and extension, amazing spins, a good (albeit flawed) technical content, quite a bit of consistency, and most importantly, star power. But nearly all of that is gone now. It's really sad because she was definitely one of my favorites. But she stalled for the better part of 3 years...almost no visual improvements whatsoever. And what really makes me mad is seeing how she improved her flip in one summer under Tammy Gambill. If it was that easy, why didn't she do it back in 2007? Why did it take so long for her to start improving her skating? Think about how much better she might be if she started working on her issues three years ago...it's a sad end to what should have been a really good story...
Ashley's story is a bit baffling. I know she has flutzing and UR issues, but the majority of her skating isn't bad. Her spins are decent as are her programs and presentation. There just seems to be something about her that doesn't work. She keeps shooting herself in the foot at nationals by messing up the SP. IMO, I think it may be overconfidence on her part, especially in 2010. She was so sure she'd make that team b/c she made the GPF, it was as if she'd already packed her bags. This year she was sick and again made mistakes, but by this point the judges aren't spotting her anything.
I'm not really a fan of Ashley's. Her skating always looks too frantic to me, like I want to grab her by the shoulders and scream "CALM DOWN!". Her UR and double-footed issues are detrimental to her scores as well but she does package herself decently...I usually enjoy her waaay more than Rachael to say the least.
IMO, Caroline might be finish. It's unlikely that she'll get more than one (if that) GP assignment this year, and now she has to earn her trip to nationals by going thru sectionals, regionals, etc. I don't know how long she'll stay that route before quitting. I would love to see her pull an Alissa and come back later in her career...but she has A LOT of work to do before she'll be podium ready again.
As for Ashley, she really needs to assert herself this season. I don't know how much leeway she's going to get from the judges (international or national) but she's gotta come with something really good that will force the judges to give her credit.
For Caroline, it's been too little too late. Had she started working on fixing her flip, lutz, axel and basics back in 2007 when she made the jump to senior, she'd probably be in better shape. Her team's inability to address her problems early have nearly killed her chances for a successful senior career. She's so far behind right now, I don't know that she'll ever catch up.
It's so sad because she was so amazing when she first showed up. She had beautiful lines and extension, amazing spins, a good (albeit flawed) technical content, quite a bit of consistency, and most importantly, star power. But nearly all of that is gone now. It's really sad because she was definitely one of my favorites. But she stalled for the better part of 3 years...almost no visual improvements whatsoever. And what really makes me mad is seeing how she improved her flip in one summer under Tammy Gambill. If it was that easy, why didn't she do it back in 2007? Why did it take so long for her to start improving her skating? Think about how much better she might be if she started working on her issues three years ago...it's a sad end to what should have been a really good story...
Ashley's story is a bit baffling. I know she has flutzing and UR issues, but the majority of her skating isn't bad. Her spins are decent as are her programs and presentation. There just seems to be something about her that doesn't work. She keeps shooting herself in the foot at nationals by messing up the SP. IMO, I think it may be overconfidence on her part, especially in 2010. She was so sure she'd make that team b/c she made the GPF, it was as if she'd already packed her bags. This year she was sick and again made mistakes, but by this point the judges aren't spotting her anything.
I'm not really a fan of Ashley's. Her skating always looks too frantic to me, like I want to grab her by the shoulders and scream "CALM DOWN!". Her UR and double-footed issues are detrimental to her scores as well but she does package herself decently...I usually enjoy her waaay more than Rachael to say the least.
IMO, Caroline might be finish. It's unlikely that she'll get more than one (if that) GP assignment this year, and now she has to earn her trip to nationals by going thru sectionals, regionals, etc. I don't know how long she'll stay that route before quitting. I would love to see her pull an Alissa and come back later in her career...but she has A LOT of work to do before she'll be podium ready again.
As for Ashley, she really needs to assert herself this season. I don't know how much leeway she's going to get from the judges (international or national) but she's gotta come with something really good that will force the judges to give her credit.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
HAPPY BIRTHDAY CAROLINE !!!! 
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
Wishing Caroline a Very Happy Birthday. Is she 18 or 19 today?
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
Listening to some people on this board, she's 67.
............ but actually, she is 18 today.
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2010
Yes! Happy 18th to Caroline!
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
Its interesting to see Alissa's name tossed around when discussing skaters who are done. How many times did we write Alissa off while holding up Kimmie and Emily up as examples of all that was right with US skating? Both are done while Alissa is US and GPF champ. Yes, she landed 5th at Worlds, but she's still the fifthe best skater in the world and that's nothing to sneeze at...
Color me optimistic, but I am hopeful for Zhang. She might still make some noise. Ashley is the only person holding her back. If she ever focuses, she will be fine.
I dig Gao and Agnes. But after years of watching the new young things not being successful, I choose not to pay attention to the new crop until they've been in the seniors for two years and have good showings internationally.
Color me optimistic, but I am hopeful for Zhang. She might still make some noise. Ashley is the only person holding her back. If she ever focuses, she will be fine.
I dig Gao and Agnes. But after years of watching the new young things not being successful, I choose not to pay attention to the new crop until they've been in the seniors for two years and have good showings internationally.
Well.... that is sort of why I have a hard time being optimistic about Ashley and Caroline at this point.
But it's like I said, if they prove the naysayers wrong I will be thrilled for them and it will be a wonderful story to follow. There's nothing better than a comeback story in figure skating or a story about a skater who struggles for years before finally living up to their potential like Alissa at the GPF and nationals and of course Paul Wylie. So if Ashley and Caroline do get their moments it will be great to see. But for now I'm watching other skaters more.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
Me too... Its more about watching these skaters who have oodles of talent but for some reason a mental block when it comes to competition. Or the phenoms who are pronounced world beaters only to falter on the senior stage... Take Be Be for instance. I remember when she was pronounced the second coming and then just NOTHING! But a wonderful skater. For their sake, I hope Zhang and Ashley figure out the formula for success. I also hope that Gao and Agnes make huge splash. Time will tell and since its the off season, I can brim with nationalistic pride and be positive. Sorta like my husband when he talks about the Detroit Lions. September will come soon enough and we will see...
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2009
Yeah, I once saw Bebe on Ice Diaries, along with Cziny and Danielle Kahle. It seemed like Bebe always had trouble with her flip.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
Bebe was never any good. Even skating cleanly she was a mediocre skater capable of only mediocre scores and results.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
Wow Caroline's all grown up. Not a baby ballerina anymore! I wish her a happy birthday and the best next season. Does anyone know if she is considering college?
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
To pangtongfan: please. Bebe was very talented and she was popular for a reason: she stood out from the crowd and skated with speed and pizzazz. As a Grand Prix competitor she was in the elite ranks for a long time so obviously she was very good even if not a podium contender for the most part. No need to write her off so dismissively. Doing so doesn't make your resume any longer.
The adjective "mediocre" is defined differently among fans. 
Bebe Liang got to compete at one Worlds in 2008 (yes, due to Nagasu and Flatt being too young but it still counts and she placed a respectable 10th) and she did win a few international medals in her career:
2006 - Nebelhorn Trophy - 1st
2006 - Four Continents Championships - 3rd
2005 - Nebelhorn Trophy - 3rd
2002 - Junior Grand Prix (China) - 2nd
2002 - Junior Grand Prix (United States) - 2nd
2000 - Triglav Trophy, Novice - 1st
BTW, she's on Twitter now: http://twitter.com/bebeliang
ETA: I noticed that no one wished Ashley Wagner a Happy 20th birthday (May 16) in this thread -- hope she had a good one!
Bebe Liang got to compete at one Worlds in 2008 (yes, due to Nagasu and Flatt being too young but it still counts and she placed a respectable 10th) and she did win a few international medals in her career:
2006 - Nebelhorn Trophy - 1st
2006 - Four Continents Championships - 3rd
2005 - Nebelhorn Trophy - 3rd
2002 - Junior Grand Prix (China) - 2nd
2002 - Junior Grand Prix (United States) - 2nd
2000 - Triglav Trophy, Novice - 1st
BTW, she's on Twitter now: http://twitter.com/bebeliang
ETA: I noticed that no one wished Ashley Wagner a Happy 20th birthday (May 16) in this thread -- hope she had a good one!
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I think it says more about Alyssa's longevity than anything. Czisny was always hyped since 2004 as "she could be one of the best in the world if she just hit her jumps" but that was all talk and the potential was never realized for years. Then she kinda popped out of nowhere and has been hot/cold ever since. She's America's version of Carolina Kostner in that sense.
Czisny is a "late bloomer" and that's very unusual for an American skater, at least these days. It's typical for the American lady to be a flash in the pan, make a big splash and then disappear/vacate soon after (think Lipinski, Meissner), or to show potential but never realize it (think Nam, Nikodinov). It remains to be seen where CZhang fits into all this- as it stands, she's another one that got away- but on the upside, she is still rather young...young enough, anyway, to be in the mix for 2018 if she ever pulled a Czisny. As it stands now, though, she is out of it.
I assume you're referring to Wagner holding herself back rather than holding Zhang back.
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Since 2004? The year that Kwan and Cohen both medaled at Worlds, someone was out there hyping up Czisny? I am not saying that it's not true, but it is astounding to me because I haven't heard of her at that time. But maybe some people within the skating community and/or forum participants did.
It was the 2004-05 season, where I believe Czisny was at '04 SA or another GP as a filler for someone else who dropped out.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
Here is Alissa at 2004 Skate America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Co8ilXlvo
There was a buzz about her but it was all about the future. Alissa was no threat to Sasha or Michelle in '04.
And just for fun a look back at Miki from 2004 Skate America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdBr4_upBJ8
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
Happy Belated Birthday Ashley!
