Who is the greatest ladies figure skater of all time?

[Bartek]

I think that everyone who know anything about figure skating wouldn't even consider Lipinski or Baiul to be the greatest skater in history or putting them ahead of Ito or Slutskaya. Ito only for doing 3A+3T slaughters Baiul and Lpinski. Slutskaya, well, so many years years of great career with all her achievments, medals, beating Kwan so many times etc., there's just no comparison. Maybe Irina isn't the best in the history but she certainly, like Ito, deserves to be put in the top 10.

 

[Mao88]

At the time of my comment Lipinski had no votes. Mysteriously 2 popped up out of nowhere only after my comments. Most likely Oksanafan making some new accounts and voting twice for Lipinski.

Don't you say that about somebody you don't know.

I think what it comes down to is that there are not enough choices to accommodate everybodies view. I know when I set up my poll on a different subject, there were only 10 options maximum. That seems a bit restrictive for a poll on greatest ever. 20 or 25 options would be better and would most people happy. Does anybody know how to go about setting a poll with 20 plus options? Is that possible?

 

[Kwanford Wife]

These votes always come down to favorites vs. actual, scientific polling... Its improbable to have an accurate view of Greatest Of All Time without criteria, a larger selection of skaters and whatnot. I would also argue that time & space tend to make polls different. If you grow up watching one generation of skaters, its safe to assume your Greatest is going to be different from my Greatest. I also would say that the exclusion of Irina, Janet Lynn, and Midori (insert your own favorite who didn't make the cut) makes this poll a hodgepodge of "who I like" v. "who you like." But as long we can agree that Michelle Kwan is the Greatest. Of. All. Time. I personally have no issues...

 

[Spun Silver]

Another vote for Midori Ito. It is hard to explain as it's not about her great programs or record - it's simply that she did what no one else could, seems to hang in the air like an angel, and has more charm and grace (and by grace I mean a spiritual quality) than any skater I've ever seen. Maybe that is related to her modesty and diligence. (Things she shares with several other Japanese skaters... one reason I admire so many of them so much.) What can I say, she makes me happy!

 

[iluvtodd]

I voted for Michelle, but my all time favorite lady is Midori!

 

[Ladskater]

Of coure my choice here is the great Karen Magnussen, who was not listed in the voting list. However, for me she will always remain my favorite female skater of all time because I watched her skate for years - many times live - and was so inspired by her to figure skate myself. She was in essence, my Michelle Kwan. It's always tempting to vote on these polls and argue back and forth who is the "greatest" but I think all the ladies here would agree that Sonja Henie deserves the honour as she set the bar in ladies figure skating way back when figures counted and the ice surface itself was even challenging for skaters to hold competitions on. Sometimes they even had to skate outdoors.

 

[pangtongfan]

Magnussen competed in the era of the greatest compulsory figures skater of all time Trixi Schuba, and the greatest free skater of all time Janet Lynn, whose contrast which led to the change in the scoring system is still talked about to this day. Poor Karen, great skater that she also was, was pretty much overshadowed by those other two, and still is when people look back on that era.

 

[jsteam4501s]

Pangtongfan - Pardon me for Christ sake, but who are you to say "Sorry, but a blip on the radar isn't better than the other so and so scenario"- as if it is a fact? Have you ever heard of "In my opinion"? This whole thread is pointless, you conduct a poll to get peoples's diversified opinions on a question, then you attempt to invalidate the opinions of particular skaters' fans with all this long, drawn-out riga maroll which you call authoritative because of the "there was a lotta this" or a lotta that........ Sorry, but YOU don't get to ask for a poll on greatest this or that. You accuse particular posters of "dreaming of imagined scenarios" and then YOU certify the imaginary scenarios of "being in slumps" or IF this or IF that, then this wouldn't have happened. HAH! How come YOUR imagined scenarios count while the posters' scenarios DON'T count? Stop being so disingenuous! You're not looking for a poll, you're just creating a forum for you to challenge what certain people say about their favorite skaters, if you don't care for those skaters. There ARE a lot of people who consider brief moments of dazzling history (youngest to win, most exciting on one night, etc.) to be just as impressive and long-impacting on the sport of skating as the long careers of consistency and "buildup of resume" type things

 

[jsteam4501s]

Oops, sorry, Oksanafan, I now see that it was you who started this thread, not pangtongfan. Pangtongfan's posts are so long I thought she had started this poll. Still, I stand by my remarks directed at Pangtongfan. I've always thought it was proper just to state your own opinion and not rudely trash the opinions of others. JMO.

 

[pangtongfan]

LOL just my opinion. The great Peggy Fleming and Dick Button both called Tara a blip on the radar screen during two different telecasts from Nationals. Her own former choreographer Sandra Bezic called her that in an interview a few years back too. It is pretty much a consensus of everyone that it all Tara and even Oksana were.

Of course they were impressive blips. However not too impressive, as do you ever hear anyone talk about either today. And when they do it generally it isnt in a glowing way. It is people talking about how Baiul didnt deserve to win the 94 Olympics and maybe even the 93 Worlds, with only the very occasional person coming to her defense. Or complaints about what many consider Taras often inflated scores, which even the BBC team and the Times in England went off on at the 97 Worlds, and how she began the trend of flutzing, underrotated jumps, and (along with Baiul) teenaged champions who take the money and run into obscurity.

 

[FlattFan]

Even Midori's triple lutz is more impressive than the collective accomplishments of Tara Lipinski and Oskana Baiul. Both of these hags maybe need to cure cancer, save Africa, AND resolve the Middle East conflict to come close to Midori's triple axel.

 

[lowtherlore]

Even Midori's triple lutz is more impressive than the collective accomplishments of Tara Lipinski and Oskana Baiul. Both of these hags maybe need to cure cancer, save Africa, AND resolve the Middle East conflict to come close to Midori's triple axel.

Midori Ito didn't have a true lutz. She was a flutzer. She had a big triple axel, but it was not particularly beautiful or perfect in form. And one big jump cannot warrant a definitive judgment like the one you made. We all know a figure skating performance can be (and should be) much more than a simple sum of its elements.

 

[dorispulaski]

Here's Midori in her 1988 Olympic SP-one of the best ones every skated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl3PelmX05M&feature=related
Check out the amazing lutz entrance to a double axel.
Check out the height of the triple loop, when done AFTER a double loop!!
Check out the interesting and surprising positions in her spins and the changes of positions!!!


Midori had a really nice lutz, seen here at the beginning of her 1988 Olympic LP. In fact, her technique on all her jumps, other than the wrap on some of them, was lovely . This music does not suit her as well as her SP music, but it's a great performance, ending in a complete standing ovation, remarkable for the 8th place skater (due to figures) to be getting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyu8GYBRIjE



And she had had a nice lutz for quite a while.
1981 Triple Lutzes and interview with a 12 year old Midori
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtmzXZ_p0fk

Here's what a flutz looks like (Tara 1998)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBt7TGh3HWM#t=1m0s
Yes she did it that way all the time. Here's another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUpZBt_x5cQ

Midori also had a better position in the layback than Tara. And she didn't have a small skiddy axel.

And here's what a two footed lutz looks like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6zKfZVurJY
And no, it's not a fluke. That is how Oksana always did the triple lutz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uZycSYnufI

Midori did indeed have a wrap, but other than that, she was amazing.

I wouldn't call Tara or Oksana hags, and both had an amazing enthusiasm on the ice, but they had systemic technical issues with their jumps.

BTW, Oksana's posture wasn't what it could have been (something that I didn't remember), and I can't stand the way she sticks her butt up getting into her signature donut spin, however, wow did she have personality on the ice in spades.

 

[lowtherlore]

No matter what you want to make it to be, Ito never had a true lutz. If you are to say she had a beautiful lutz, it’s equivalent of saying Asada had a true lutz, at any single point of her career.

Anyway, I was responding to the specific post made by Flattfan (I’m not even sure whether she/he is actually a fan of the Flatt I know, considering her/his uber-fondness for a big jump). For me, Lipinski’s or Baiul’s performance at the Olympics was more memorable and enjoyable than any of Ito’s even with her big but not visually pleasing jumps and all. Please don’t get me wrong, as I do consider Ito one of the greats though.

 

[FlattFan]

Unless you can find a clip that clearly shows Midori flutzes, go back under the bridge.
Asada is a known flutzer, no on is disputing that. It's like saying Yuna flutzes because Asada flutzes. It's like saying, "go back under the bridge, troll" is equivalent to "go back under the bridge, lowtherlore" What kind of logic is that?

 

[dorispulaski]

lowtherlore, I have no problem with you preferring Oksana or Tara, you are entitled to your own tastes, for sure, but to state Midori had a flutz, I want to see video proof.

Flattfan, Have you ever seen Midori's Rose of Pain 1993 World Pro technical program?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dg3jlLS9W4&playnext=1&list=PL2114D91993AE220C

 

[pangtongfan]

Show us a video where Ito flutzes otherwise you have no ground to stand on.

As for Baiul and Lipinski to each their own. Taras Olympic winning performance did trump any performance Midori ever had at the Olympics but I would still never take it over Itos LP at the 89 or 1990 Worlds. As for Baiul IMO her Olympic winning performance was a joke and deserved no more than the bronze, and irregardless of my or your opinion it is still one of the most controversial and debated 17 years later. What does it say about your Olympic winning performance when most people think Nancy freaking Kerrigan was so robbed of the being Olympic Champion that year. hwell:

 

[lowtherlore]

Whether Ito flutzed or not belongs to the domain of public information, as you can find as many video clips as you want.

Check her lutz at 1989 Worlds (at 0:35).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUZ0iJIqzs

And check this slow motion capture from the 1981 practice clip doris mentioned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuhP9Z1QqYg

Be your own judge on whether the last-second change of edges was made or not. To my eyes it’s pretty obvious, even without a help of slow motion. As I said, she never had proper edges on her lutz. Interestingly, all of the prominent ladies under Yamada, including Asada and Murakami, have had similar techniques on lutz.

I have no intention to bash Ito. Frankly, I don’t think her flutzing significantly undermines her achievements to begin with, as the proper edges didn’t matter much at her times. But somebody saying Ito had beautiful lutz that would trounce the accomplishments of two Olympic champions is just laughable. Repeating ill-informed or deliberately misleading statements doesn’t change the facts, especially in this day and age. Why not call it for what it is?

Flattfan, of all people, you are calling me a troll? The totally irrelevant and nonsensical analogy you made is a product of your own poor reasoning/logic, not mine.

 

[dorispulaski]

Show us a video where Ito flutzes otherwise you have no ground to stand on.

As for Baiul and Lipinski to each their own. Taras Olympic winning performance did trump any performance Midori ever had at the Olympics but I would still never take it over Itos LP at the 89 or 1990 Worlds. As for Baiul IMO her Olympic winning performance was a joke and deserved no more than the bronze, and irregardless of my or your opinion it is still one of the most controversial and debated 17 years later. What does it say about your Olympic winning performance when most people think Nancy freaking Kerrigan was so robbed of the being Olympic Champion that year. hwell:

PTF, I think Ito's 1988 Olympics showed more impressive free skating skills in an Olympics than Tara's 1998 Olympic win. That's why I linked them above. Ito didn't go to just one Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUZ0iJIqzs#t=0m35s

LTL,
The combination jump at 35 seconds in the 1989 short program by Ito was a double toetriple toe. The British commentators indeed say so. In fact, if her first jump had been a double lutz, Ito would have failed on an element, because in the 1988/1989 season, the required combination was one that contained a double toe in it as either the first or second jump. A triple toe as a second jump would not have filled the requirement, in which case no judge would have given her a 6.0 on the technical mark.

So I am still looking for a flutz somewhere in the 1989 OP.

Now that was not a particularly great Ito Original Program. I'm with the commentators on the subject of the specially written Japanese tango as not suiting her particularly.

And if you wanted to fault the weakness of her spiral sequence in that program, I'm right there with you OTOH, 1988/1989 was the first season that a spiral sequence was required in the SP (OP) and it wasn't yet clear exactly what one should look like. Before that, the spiral had been a throwaway transitional move. Ito's coach appears not to have figured it out as early as Trenary's coach Fassi or Yamaguchi's coach Ness. I wonder whether the odd music choice was to accomodate the spiral? If so, it wasn't a great idea.

In case you doubt, here's Debi Thomas's 1988 OP-as you will note, no spiral sequence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChmdEFrn3OY&playnext=1&list=PLF0FC215026285BB7

 

[miki88]

I really doubt lowerthelore watched Ito's programs other than to scrutinize a few clips for a wrong edge or not.