Mirai Nagasu | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Mirai Nagasu

Mirai certainly does not lok "heavy" enough to be generating this much discussion. She is getting to be a lady, not a girl anymore so it is only normal she would look more "curvy" than some people might expect from her. The program certainly seems to be her SP, and not just an exhibition, the extensive footwork and placement of the jumps right off the top suggest this as does the fact that it is an instrumental tango, not the usual pop songs Mirai skates to for exhibitions.
 
I get a little annoyed that weight is now a taboo subject, because, like it or not, it does play a factor in one's skating ability. Carrying too much weight very much increases the amount of force the skater has to absorb when they land their jumps, and it can increase the liklihood of injury. I wonder sometimes if Rachel, who is certainly thin by normal standards but a bit chubby by skating standards, is dealing with a stress fracture partly because she's taking more force on her takeoffs to launch more weight into the air (though it's entirely possible Tom Z. overtrained her). Weight is not merely an aesthetic consideration, though of course it does play a part there. A heavier skater also has to be choosier with music and choreography.

I don't think it's necessarily taboo...it's only taboo when people accuse a skinny girl of being fat. In Mirai's case, I do believe she (like nearly ever other skater in the off-season) has gained weight. I watched Johnny Weir's show and he said in the off-season he'd put on between 8-10 pounds, but that by the time he got back into the routine of training, it goes away. Mirai wasn't as slim as she was back in 2009/2010 season last year because she was unable to train for six weeks while she recovered from her stress fracture. Because it's the off-season, she's probably carrying an extra 5-8 pounds that will go away by the time she kicks her training into high gear.

As for Rachael, I've never accused her of being chubby or fat...the way she dresses gives her the appearance of someone heavier. She's clearly not. You can tell by pictures just how skinny she is, like this one or this one. Rachael's problem is that she has yet to find a stylist who can elongate her stockier body. She doesn't have the luxury of long limbs, so she often looks squat and heavy in some of her dresses. She leans towards primary colors when she needs to go for dark colors (dark purple, dark blue or just black, which is what I recommend). Also, the cut of her dresses (neckline and length) never do anything for her figure. I still say I'd love to see her do a program in this practice dress...here's the back. It's simple with an interesting back, and gives her a much better line than the other colors and styles she typically wears.

One skater who I do think will benefit from slimming down is Caroline Zhang. Physically, she's changed the most. Comparing photos of her from her 2010 to the new season, you can see the drastic change. Her legs are much more muscular, her bust size grew...all in all she filled out a bit everywhere. Given that she'd already hit puberty and her body had already changed a year and a half prior, it was obvious she was carrying a bit of extra weight and unfortunately, it made Caroline look as though every movement was very laborious and slow. By no means would she be considered fat, but given her lack of speed and flow already, she looked very heavy on the ice. By the end of the season she'd slimmed down a bit but, more importantly, she found a dress that elongated her body and gave her better lines. The covered arm and pattern of the cut-outs on the dress gave her a much better line.

There are many different body types so it usually comes down to working with what you have. But none of the top ladies can be considered fat or even chubby...they might look that way sometimes, but more often than not that's the result of poor styling. ;)
 
I'd still argue that Rachel, though thin for a non-skater might be carrying more weight than would be optimal for the sport. As much as it's been argued in many places that it should be fine for an athlete to look like a normal person, the physics of the sport often dictate otherwise. Sport makes unusual demands, and managing one's weight to balance strength with lightness is one of the difficulties figure skaters have to contend with.

I do agree that she could benefit from much better styling, though, and have thought this for years. When I first saw that practice costume at 2010 nationals, I too thought it was much better on her than her competition looks. It's too bad Caroline couldn't have donated that costume from your last link to Rachel for her East of Eden program. The footwork may have still included flailing arms, but at least she wouldn't have invoked the big bird effect with the yellow costume that did her no favors. She really does need to employ dark colors, cut-outs or differing colors in elongating patterns, and vertical lines, as well as anything that minimizes her slightly raised and rounded shoulders (compared to a skater with more dance training).
 
^^Rachael's weight doesn't seem to be an issue in the truest sense: I mean, she's still able to rotate her jumps without issue, unlike Kimmie Meissner or Emily Hughes, who both saw their rotation fail them as their bodies changed and they picked up weight. But aah! You made a good point! I forgot to mention Rachael's lack of posture in addition with her shorter neck and rounded face also add to her appearance on the ice. She really needs better dresses, better hair, overall better styling. My hope is that this move to CA and changing coaches will benefit her in more ways than one. I wish I were good at Photoshop! I'd photoshop a pic of Rachael with new hair, makeup, better dress...I'd give her a virtual makeover! :biggrin:

...at least she wouldn't have invoked the big bird effect with the yellow costume that did her no favors...
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Precisely!
 
^^Rachael's weight doesn't seem to be an issue in the truest sense: I mean, she's still able to rotate her jumps without issue, unlike Kimmie Meissner or Emily Hughes, who both saw their rotation fail them as their bodies changed and they picked up weight.

The difference was that with Emily and Kimmie, they both developed new body shapes, with wider hips that made rotating their jumps much more difficult. Rachael has maintained a rather girlish body in comparison to the other two and thus lucked out when the puberty monster came to town.
 
I can't believe I'm hoping for this....but, I am, so here goes: I hope that someone on Rachel's team happens to read kwanatic's post above and give her a competition makeover that includes a black dress. wow, she really looks stunning in both the actual black dress and the practice one (kwanatic's links she be in the quote below)

As for Rachael, I've never accused her of being chubby or fat...the way she dresses gives her the appearance of someone heavier. She's clearly not. You can tell by pictures just how skinny she is, like this one or this one. Rachael's problem is that she has yet to find a stylist who can elongate her stockier body. She doesn't have the luxury of long limbs, so she often looks squat and heavy in some of her dresses. She leans towards primary colors when she needs to go for dark colors (dark purple, dark blue or just black, which is what I recommend). Also, the cut of her dresses (neckline and length) never do anything for her figure. I still say I'd love to see her do a program in this practice dress...here's the back. It's simple with an interesting back, and gives her a much better line than the other colors and styles she typically wears.
 
Rachel is at the point where she needs to decide whether she wants to do college full-time, or keep skating at a high level. She tried the latter this year, and unfortunately for her it didn't work out the way she planned. Does she want to try again, especially after what happened? Sounds like her college plans have already been made, so I take it that worlds '11 is the beginning of the end for her, at least skating-wise. If she does continue, don't be shocked if she is not on the '12 team.
 
While we're talking about Mirai and Rachael, I have 2 questions for those with skating knowledge but first, a little about me.

I have dance training that began at 8 with ballet, taught by a very strict Russian Ballet teacher who used "Tap" our ankles and feet with her cane if weren't turned out, or didn't point our toes. I skated for a very short time but was ordered to stop by my ballet teacher when I showed up injured after a skating session. " Enough of this.........Skating " she said. " He's too good to waste time on that......Sport " and that was that. So, unto the question.

Do skating judges have a technical standard for spins and jumps, and if so, how are they applied when skaters have different " styles " in their approach to the same skill ?


For example, Mirai and Rachael basically, have the same approach to the flip by brushing from front to back before they pivot and pick. Alyssa and if you remember Elena Liashenko have a two step weight shift into the pick which in my opinion, looks very different, and IMO less attractive. So, does this difference matter to judges and if so, who gets the better score on the flip ?

The same question applies to the final combination spins of Mirai and Alyssa.

Alyssa, has a very beautiful heel extension spin where she holds her boot with one hand from the under-inside which IMO achieves the following. It displays her flexibility, hides the grabbing hand for better line, and most of all. It allows the rest of her upper body the freedom to perform and stay connected to the judges during it's execution.

Mirai, in 2010 at the end of her pirates SP she does what I think is called an " I " Spin where she holds the TOP her boot with one hand while grabbing her CALF from the outside creating an I . A position which IMO achieves the following. A Big Russian Smack from my ballet teacher !!!!

I'm sorry but, who told these girls this spin was a winner ?? Mirai, actually has the flexiblilty to hit the position correctly but 99% of them don't. Also, the spins in transition to the " I " are hunch backed, ugly, and screaming for a back injury. Worst yet, the fact that the skater's head and eyes are basically looking into the knee which loses her connection to the judge. However, this spin, when executed by Mirai, does display flexibility and seems to score very well. So, between Alyssa and Mirai, who gets the better score ?

Wow, I'm sorry it was so long but this has been driving me crazy and I had to ask before I snapped....lol
 
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Mirai, in 2010 at the end of her pirates SP she does what I think is called an " I " Spin where she holds the TOP her boot with one hand while grabbing her CALF from the outside creating an I . A position which IMO achieves the following. A Big Russian Smack from my ballet teacher !!!!

I'm sorry but, who told these girls this spin was a winner ?? Mirai, actually has the flexiblilty to hit the position correctly but 99% of them don't. Also, the spins in transition to the " I " are hunch backed, ugly, and screaming for a back injury. Worst yet, the fact that the skater's head and eyes are basically looking into the knee which loses her connection to the judge. However, this spin, when executed by Mirai, does display flexibility and seems to score very well. So, between Alyssa and Mirai, who gets the better score ?

Sasha does. :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQfXy4Riciw&t=03m52s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4mvG3qlbWk&t=02m22s

But she has an advantage because she has proportionally shorter legs.
 
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Mirai has a more muscular build (along the lines of Midori Ito and Tonya Harding - the two best lady jumpers in history without peer!) than the more "traditionally built" skaters like Asada, Kim, Kwan, and Cohen. Wagner has a more muscular-looking build as well but having shared a locker room with her at a local competition put any notion that she was anything but super-small to rest! I don't think a home video is the best judge of shape as aspect ratios are usually off. If you see these ladies in person, you will not see "chubby", "overweight", or anywhere near out of shape.

I agree Mirai has a more muscular build than the Japanese skaters, Kim, or Cohen but she's cut higher than Tonya and Midori imo-she has a longer line with those legs of hers. Tonya especially was built more powerfully. Midori of course is a teeny tiny little thing with powerful legs. Perhaps the strongest ever. I agree about these skaters-in person they are positively petite. Many years ago I met the former gymnast Mary Lou Retton-on television she always seemed so muscular with a rather sturdy build. In person even in high heels she was TINY! She was built like a miniature young lady in a petite dress suit. Tv, photographs, or video can be deceptive sometimes.

Some definitions of 'chubby':
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chubby

chubby [ˈtʃʌbɪ]
adj -bier, -biest
(esp of the human form) plump and round

Adj. 1. chubby - sufficiently fat so as to have a pleasing fullness of figure; "a chubby child"; "pleasingly plump";
embonpoint, plump

fat - having an (over)abundance of flesh; "he hadn't remembered how fat she was"


'Sufficiently fat' 'Plump and round' 'fat' none of these describe Mirai's current figure by any stretch imo.

Just curious... how would you describe Rachel then?

And btw I have seen Rachel about 20 ft away, she is just normally built, maybe is just her shape and figure proportion, but I'd says she's just too ordinary compare to the long limbed girls, hence became disadvantaged in the 'figure' presentation aspect just like Akiko might be.

I have always imagined Mirai will grow up to be a power skater, she could have best of both worlds, some in born eastern sensibility, american engine and ingenuity, athleticism and power combine that with that valley girl glee, it could be the magical ingredient for a future star... at least i hope.

I was afraid someone would go there..:eek:
 
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Do skating judges have a technical standard for spins and jumps, and if so, how are they applied when skaters have different " styles " in their approach to the same skill ?


For example, Mirai and Rachael basically, have the same approach to the flip by brushing from front to back before they pivot and pick. Alyssa and if you remember Elena Liashenko have a two step weight shift into the pick which in my opinion, looks very different, and IMO less attractive. So, does this difference matter to judges and if so, who gets the better score on the flip ?

The same question applies to the final combination spins of Mirai and Alyssa.

Alyssa, has a very beautiful heel extension spin where she holds her boot with one hand from the under-inside which IMO achieves the following. It displays her flexibility, hides the grabbing hand for better line, and most of all. It allows the rest of her upper body the freedom to perform and stay connected to the judges during it's execution.

Mirai, in 2010 at the end of her pirates SP she does what I think is called an " I " Spin where she holds the TOP her boot with one hand while grabbing her CALF from the outside creating an I .
I'm sorry but, who told these girls this spin was a winner ?? Mirai, actually has the flexiblilty to hit the position correctly but 99% of them don't. Also, the spins in transition to the " I " are hunch backed, ugly, and screaming for a back injury. Worst yet, the fact that the skater's head and eyes are basically looking into the knee which loses her connection to the judge. However, this spin, when executed by Mirai, does display flexibility and seems to score very well. So, between Alyssa and Mirai, who gets the better score ?

For the flip, the definition is that it takes off from a backward inside edge with a toe assist, no change of weight once it's been shifted from the supporting foot to the picking foot. If all fully rotate the jump and they are about average height and distance without a creative entry/exit or incredible speed and flow, then they score the same, assuming that neither or both get an edge call on the take off. Alissa could get a slightly better score because the back power three turn-Mohawk entry may be considered a more difficult entry by some judges than the forward outside three turn that Mirai and Rachel do. Flip entry is optional - Miki (when she does it) and Mao do just the Mohawk into theirs. It depends on where your comfort level is for the entry on that jump (along with Salchow, toe loop, loop, Lutz) between the Mohawk and the three turn.

The "Y" spin Alissa does is a different "difficult upright variation" from the "I" spin Mirai does. When executed completely (I've seen skaters abort both positions in attempting them for whatever reason), they both up the level of the combination spin. Beauty of the position has no bearing on whether the difficult variation is called nor does it affect grade of execution (that's mostly about the technical quality of the spin - speed, centering, quickness of attaining/changing position). If beauty had anything to do with whether a position was going to be called or the GOE of spins, no one would ever do the A-frame (bar stool) spin. ;)
 
Do skating judges have a technical standard for spins and jumps, and if so, how are they applied when skaters have different " styles " in their approach to the same skill ?

I'll get to spins in a minute, but for jumps, yes there is a standard. Mostly, the focus is on what edge the jump takes off of. To use the flip as an example, as long as it takes off of a back inside edge, it's a flip. The approach (ie. how the skater goes into the jump) can vary. To use both Mirai and Alissa as examples.

Alissa's entry to a flip is less textbook but still acceptable because the jump takes off from the correct edge. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Alissa does a mohawk entry into her flip. She glides forward on an inside edge on her left foot, before stepping onto an inside edge on her right foot and launching herself into the jump. The example I posted wasn't complete correct because her take off edge rolled slightly to the outside, which is called a "lip" instead of a flip, but it was a good look at the entry. In addition to the skaters you listed who use this entry, Mao Asada and Kanako Murakami also use this entrance.

Mirai, OTOH, uses the more traditional three-turn entry into her flip. She glides forward on an outside edge of her left before doing a half-turn to the inside edge of that same foot and then going up into the jump. The edge on this flip looked pretty clean as well, so this is a good example. I see the three-turn entry more than the mohawk entry and I actually prefer it. Other skaters with good three-turn entries are Carolina Kostner and Yu-Na Kim.




The same question applies to the final combination spins of Mirai and Alyssa.

Alyssa, has a very beautiful heel extension spin where she holds her boot with one hand from the under-inside...Mirai, in 2010 at the end of her pirates SP she does what I think is called an " I " Spin where she holds the TOP her boot with one hand while grabbing her CALF from the outside creating an I.

I'm sorry but, who told these girls this spin was a winner ?? Mirai, actually has the flexiblilty to hit the position correctly but 99% of them don't. Also, the spins in transition to the " I " are hunch backed, ugly, and screaming for a back injury.

However, this spin, when executed by Mirai, does display flexibility and seems to score very well. So, between Alyssa and Mirai, who gets the better score ?

The I-spin was popularized by Sasha Cohen. I'd say by around 2004 or 2005, a lot of other skaters began attempting to incorporate it because with COP you get more points that way. There are only a handful of skaters who do that spin well, and I'd include Mirai in that list. As someone posted earlier, it was a bit easier for Sasha because her legs are considerably shorter than Mirai's and it takes her a shorter time to attain that vertical position. Still, Mirai often attains a pretty good "I" position on this spin. By the end of that spin, she'd pulled her leg straight. I posted an entry about this at another forum, complaining about this spin because so few people do it and make it look good.

Alissa's spin is a variation of what used to be known as a Y-spin, Michelle's signature spin for many years. But, when COP came into play, flexibility became more of the trend, so the Y-spin gradually got higher and higher to the point where it's more like an I-spin. Alissa's spin is lovely, though I find the line Mao achieves to be more elegant; she reaches the position quicker and the position of her free arm and head make the spin more appealing to me.

Both positions (properly executed I-spin or Y-spin) are worth the same amount of points; however, COP rewards +GOE when the spin is done very well. In Alissa and Mirai's case, they often get +2s and +3s on their spins because they are probably the two best spinners in the field in terms of speed, centering, difficult positions and execution.
 
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For example, Mirai and Rachael basically, have the same approach to the flip by brushing from front to back before they pivot and pick. Alyssa and if you remember Elena Liashenko have a two step weight shift into the pick which in my opinion, looks very different, and IMO less attractive. So, does this difference matter to judges and if so, who gets the better score on the flip?

The two entries are a 3-turn entry and a mohawk entry. The 3-turn is the "brush" entry done on one foot, and the mohawk the two-foot turn. The turns themselves are relatively equivalent, difficulty wise, as you'll see skaters learning them and working on them at the same time. Usually, which one is used boils down to preference. I learned both entries for flips (and split jumps with the same take-off edge and pick), and settled on the 3-turn because it was more comfortable for me. The edge going into a flip needs to be on a slight curve, not a deeply cut edge, and I imagine that makes the decision for some skaters: Which entrance gives them the best control over the beginning of the jump, and which turn puts them on a flatter edge? Either, depending on how the skater does the turn, could put them on too curved an entrance edge, causing pre-rotation of the jump to the degree that the jump has more "spin" going into it than controlled height. Many skaters feel the mohawk puts them onto a more controlled edge, as the 3-turn has to be flattened a bit to be done as a jump entrance. Others like to feel "over" their takeoff foot going into the jump and thus choose the 3-turn. Still others have different reasons for preferring an entrance over the other. I have relatively poor turn-out despite years of working on it, and thus I sometimes turn my mohawks tighter than my 3-turns (or, at least, have to think more about my technique not to do so), so I went with the 3-turn. It all boils down to whatever helps the skater go into the jump most securely. The 3-turn is often the method taught to beginners.
 
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I liked Mirai´s exhibition number very much, thanks for the link! Also I noticed that she seems to have gained some weight, but I thougt that maybe the camera angle was the reason.
 
Thank You !!!

This forum is fantastic ! I truly appreciate the answers to my questions and the detail provided within. Thank you so very much,

Backhand45
 
Which entrance gives them the best control over the beginning of the jump, and which turn puts them on a flatter edge? Either, depending on how the skater does the turn, could put them on too curved an entrance edge, causing pre-rotation of the jump to the degree that the jump has more "spin" going into it than controlled height. Many skaters feel the mohawk puts them onto a more controlled edge, as the 3-turn has to be flattened a bit to be done as a jump entrance.

This is one of the reasons I think the 3-turn is a bit tougher. You have to be in time with the jump and the turn has to be checked before you take off...if a skater rushes the turn it usually ends badly. I think the mohawk affords a bit more control b/c you step onto that right onto that edge, but it seems like you'd lose a bit of the power the 3-turn gives.

Like you said, it's all about what the skater is more comfortable with...but I'm a fan of the 3-turn. :thumbsup:
 
Thank you for the interesting analysis mskater23. kwanatic and Moonlight5kater, also to backhand45 for asking. :yes:

... And to Sasha'sSpins for teaching me a new word, "embonpoint." :)
 
This is one of the reasons I think the 3-turn is a bit tougher. You have to be in time with the jump and the turn has to be checked before you take off...if a skater rushes the turn it usually ends badly. I think the mohawk affords a bit more control b/c you step onto that right onto that edge, but it seems like you'd lose a bit of the power the 3-turn gives.

Like you said, it's all about what the skater is more comfortable with...but I'm a fan of the 3-turn. :thumbsup:
It truly depends on the skater. Some skaters can't control the three turn that well and others get a "pitch-y" upper body on Mohawks which puts the timing and control of the jump off. Some can do both but have a prediliction for one over the other.
 
MM, re: embonpoint, the dictionary quoted above errs in implying that it's an adjective. It's a noun. One is not embonpoint (plump), one has embonpoint (plumpness). It often has pleasant connotations, i.e., it's considered attractive. At least in 19th-century novels!
 
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