South Korea to Host 2018 Winter Olympic Games

[parma]

Are you asking whether the East Germans...

Olympia, have you experienced former East Germany?

 

[janetfan]

Are you asking whether the East Germans had a better way of life during their separation than the North Koreans have had up to now? If so, the answer is undoubtedly yes. East Germany was part of one of the foremost industrial and scientific powers in the world--it was the Soviet sector of partitioned Germany. It was a country with plentiful natural resources and was urbanized. Some of the most important cities in Europe, including Dresden and Leipzig, I believe, are located in that part of Germany. Though certainly there had been destruction during the war (including the famous firebombing of Dresden), East Germany began its life at a higher level than either North or South Korea at the time of their partition. Once the postwar period began, West Germany advanced at a faster rate and also benefited from aid given by western powers, including the U.S. (The Allies had learned their lesson after the vengeful way they treated Germany following World War I, one of the main factors in the rise of Hitler and the start of World War II.) There was food aid and industrial aid--and, of course, the free enterprise system. But East Germany still had a lot of both human and material resources at its disposal. According to what I've read, though the Soviet Union ended capitalism, it didn't interfere with German scientific and engineering expertise.

According to what I've read, so much of the Korean infrastructure was destroyed during the Korean War and World War II. Additionally, from what I gather, Kim Il Sung and his heirs have tended to "supervise" (a euphemism) all aspects of life to a degree that did not happen in Germany. And because so much of North Korea's resources has been devoted to militarization, even food is not generally available for the rest of society--it goes to the soldiers first. Once the war was over in the Germanies, I think there was no problem with food availablility.

I have to wonder if you were ever in E Germany, E Berlin, Prague, Bratislava, or Russia before the change to democracy :think:

I also wonder if you have first hand knowledge of the sacrifice W Germans made for the E Germans. Most Americans would be surprised at the level of resentment many W Germans felt towards E Germans and how much they sacrificed after the reunification.

I had a W German business partner for 20 years and went through the reunification with him. It was very tough on him, his father and everything his family had worked so hard for after the war.

Having been to E Germany as well as Prague, Bratislava and Budapest before the change and then having lived in Prague after the Velvet revolution I can tell you life in E Germany was no picnic and nowhere near the standard of living in W Germany.

It was not even close and not only in material ways but especially in spiritual ways.

I feel sure you never went through "check point Charlie" but I did and I can tell you the difference between W Berlin and E Berlin was enough to bring tears to my eyes.

The wastleland that was communism under Soviet repression is a topic for a different board as I find most posters here get very upset if a coach even dares to criticicize a skater.

E Germany may have had a higher standard of living than most of Russia and the countries it repressed (that is not saying much) but from my own experiences it was a horrible place to visit and I am eternally grateful I wasn't born or raised there.

It is hard to describe but I would say the thing in the West we refer to as the "human spirit" was missing and what is life without real hope and dreams?

 

[Mathman]

Seniorita was not asking who was worse off. The question was, even if North Korea is poorer than East Germany was, why should that fact preclude a wealthy Soith Korea from lending a helping hand?

 

[Mathman]

I have to wonder if you were ever in E Germany, E Berlin, Prague, Bratislava, or Russia before the change to democracy.

How did conditions there compare to what you have experienced in North Korea?

 

[parma]

The problem is, the subsidy S Korea gives to N Korea does not get distributed to the poor, hungry people of N Korea who needs it and who it was intended for.

Mostly it would be used as resources to strengthen the regime's hold on the country by its dictator.

 

[Mathman]

^ That's what I thought.

 

[seniorita]

Thanx Olympia for your answer.

A bankrupted country cannot help any of its citizens, North or South, East or West.

If one man is drowning and someone who cannot certainly save him (e.g. a non-lifeguard) tries to rescue him, they can both end up drowning in the process. It's not S. Korea/ns just wanting to get "richer and richer".

You are right. And it is just an example. It happens everyday everywhere. The same kind of thinking that people dont stop the car if they see an accident not to get involved in the investigation later. There is no change without a loss.
But it reminds me one older conversation we had, went like why go and kill yourself in a country on the other half of the planet, to save a nation that you have no connection to?
But anyway my question was what Mathman understood (thanx mm).

--

Yuna is adorable btw, i really got touched, her speech, her english is awesome, really emotional and her smile when she says like me, very very cute speech and usually these kind of speeches are wooden but hers was not.

 

[Medusa]

I have to wonder if you were ever in E Germany, E Berlin, Prague, Bratislava, or Russia before the change to democracy :think:

I also wonder if you have first hand knowledge of the sacrifice W Germans made for the E Germans. Most Americans would be surprised at the level of resentment many W Germans felt towards E Germans and how much they sacrificed after the reunification.

Well, it wasn't that bad. I love my country and my people, but you always have to keep in mind that we tend to be a bunch of namby-pamby whiners, we will always find something to complain endlessly about. We also love to think endlessly about possible catastrophic outcomes of events. So obviously there was lots of doubt, resentment etc. after such a momentous change. But I think depending on who you asked you could also get answers full of hope and satisfaction over the change. And to all the naysayers back then we can say now: 20 years later we are still standing. Yes, there are always problems, there will always be problems. There is still some adjusting to do. But for now, let's count our victories: lowest unemployment rate in over two decades, the economy in Europe, a thriving political landscape.

E Germany may have had a higher standard of living than most of Russia and the countries it repressed (that is not saying much) but from my own experiences it was a horrible place to visit and I am eternally grateful I wasn't born or raised there.

It is hard to describe but I would say the thing in the West we refer to as the "human spirit" was missing and what is life without real hope and dreams?

Alright. It was a dictatorship, it wasn't a good place to live - but you are insulting quite a lot of people when you say that there was no human spirit. A dictatorship always has a negative influence on people's psyches, but people are also resilient. Half my relatives lived in Eastern Germany, we have lots of friends who were born and grew up there, never knowing anything else but the regime. And those people taught me a lot about solidarity, about camaraderie - maybe more so than people in the West did.

The S. Koreans will sacrifice more than most Americas can ever hope to imagine but when the time comes they will pull it off.
It will take a decade or longer but they will succeed .

Just as the WEST Germans did.

Oh, come one, you make the Western-Germans sound like some kind of samaritans who sacrificed everything in order to save the helpless cattle on the other side of the country. As far as I know, no Western-German child had to starve because of the reunification. Yes, things were tough for while, some things are still tough now - but there were no waves of starvation gripping the country, no outbreaks of horrible diseases (well, actually we had one of those just a month ago - but it was all firmly in Western Germany and the source of the outbreak was actually in Egypt), no horrifying riots. And a harsh economic downturn can happen without a reunification, we all learnt that in 2008.

Oh, and stop being so impolite to people. At least insult them in style.

 

[seniorita]

And a harsh economic downturn can happen without a reunification, we all learnt that in 2008.

really? never heard of one...:think:

 

[Olympia]

I have to wonder if you were ever in E Germany, E Berlin, Prague, Bratislava, or Russia before the change to democracy :think:

I also wonder if you have first hand knowledge of the sacrifice W Germans made for the E Germans. Most Americans would be surprised at the level of resentment many W Germans felt towards E Germans and how much they sacrificed after the reunification.

I had a W German business partner for 20 years and went through the reunification with him. It was very tough on him, his father and everything his family had worked so hard for after the war.

Having been to E Germany as well as Prague, Bratislava and Budapest before the change and then having lived in Prague after the Velvet revolution I can tell you life in E Germany was no picnic and nowhere near the standard of living in W Germany.

It was not even close and not only in material ways but especially in spiritual ways.

I feel sure you never went through "check point Charlie" but I did and I can tell you the difference between W Berlin and E Berlin was enough to bring tears to my eyes.

The wastleland that was communism under Soviet repression is a topic for a different board as I find most posters here get very upset if a coach even dares to criticicize a skater.

E Germany may have had a higher standard of living than most of Russia and the countries it repressed (that is not saying much) but from my own experiences it was a horrible place to visit and I am eternally grateful I wasn't born or raised there.

It is hard to describe but I would say the thing in the West we refer to as the "human spirit" was missing and what is life without real hope and dreams?

I am sure you're right, on material, spiritual, and political grounds. You're preaching to the choir on this. But I assumed that Seniorita was asking whether the East Germans were better or worse off than the North Koreans.

I'm extremely grateful my grandparents made it out of that region when my mother's generation were children, and that I didn't have to grow up there. But again, if the question is a comparison between East/West Germany and North/South Korea, I fear very much that even as bad as the East Germans had it, the North Koreans have it worse. And I do remember how hard it was for West and East Germany to reunify. Imagine, then, how much harder it would be for North and South Korea, financially and in other ways.

That was the only point I was making.

 

[Jammers]

Why are people talking about North and South Korean reunification? The two countries are still technically at war so it will be long time before reunification.

 

[prettykeys]

But again, if the question is a comparison between East/West Germany and North/South Korea, I fear very much that even as bad as the East Germans had it, the North Koreans have it worse. And I do remember how hard it was for West and East Germany to reunify. Imagine, then, how much harder it would be for North and South Korea, financially and in other ways.

Thank you, Olympia, for understanding. I will not make assumptions on how bad or decent life was in East Germany; all I know is that most South Koreans and Koreans abroad would *love* for the two sides to reunify, but the logistics of such a task are unfathomably enormous at this point in time, especially as the North Korean leadership has been and still is opposed to the idea.

You are right. And it is just an example. It happens everyday everywhere. The same kind of thinking that people dont stop the car if they see an accident not to get involved in the investigation later. There is no change without a loss.

What happens everyday, everywhere? Countries with vast social and economic disparities unifying? What? Or, are you saying that such a notion is on the same level as not getting out of the car to help someone else out? Can you insult the South Koreans more? You make it sound like all they care about is being "rich". You make it sound like the prospect of national bankruptcy isn't a big deal. Well, I've got news to you from Earth, it is a huge deal.

Not to mention the fact that Communist China and the Soviet Union had a big hand in the establishment of North Korea, but it's not as if we can expect them to foot part of the bill in a North-South Korean reunification. The South fought against them, with the support of the USA/United Nations, and it's going to be South Korea taking on the major financial and technical brunt of the project.

But it reminds me one older conversation we had, went like why go and kill yourself in a country on the other half of the planet, to save a nation that you have no connection to?

I am not reminded of any such conversation, I think you are confused in the summary and the comparison.

 

[Olympia]

Thank you, Olympia, for understanding. I will not make assumptions on how bad or decent life was in East Germany; all I know is that most South Koreans and Koreans abroad would *love* for the two sides to reunify, but the logistics of such a task are unfathomably enormous at this point in time, especially as the North Korean leadership has been and still is opposed to the idea.


Not to mention the fact that Communist China and the Soviet Union had a big hand in the establishment of North Korea, but it's not as if we can expect them to foot part of the bill in a North-South Korean reunification. The South fought against them, with the support of the USA/United Nations, and it's going to be South Korea taking on the major financial and technical brunt of the project.

Alas, the last paragraph of yours is all too true. Russia and China won't be standing around with their purses open if such a day comes.

By the way, on the subject of life in East Germany, I just told my Bulgarian friend about our discussion. (To establish her credentials, she grew up in Bulgaria, traveled a bit behind the Iron Curtain in those days, lived through the end of Communism there, and later came here and became a proud U.S. citizen.) She says that as Medusa points out, it's all in one's perspective. If you lived in Bulgaria and got to see Leipzig, you thought it was Disneyland, because East Germany was the crown jewel of the Eastern Bloc. She even said (with a bit of a wink) that any Soviet soldiers who were stationed in East Germany didn't want to leave it and go home. I mention it just to show that there are shades and degrees of things, at least economically. It was still a dictatorship, but it was as good as anyone could hope for in the Warsaw Pact countries. That's a far cry from North Korea, which is not the crown jewel of any political system anywhere in the world.

But take heart, Prettykeys. Though it might not happen in the near future, things could change for the better. I never thought we'd see the Berlin Wall fall, or the end of apartheid in South Africa. But lo and behold! Mandela was president of South Africa, and Vaclav Havel was president of the Czech Republic. These things remind us that it's never a waste of time to have hope.

 

[seniorita]

What happens everyday, everywhere? Countries with vast social and economic disparities unifying? What? Or, are you saying that such a notion is on the same level as not getting out of the car to help someone else out? Can you insult the South Koreans more? You make it sound like all they care about is being "rich". You make it sound like the prospect of national bankruptcy isn't a big deal. Well, I've got news to you from Earth, it is a huge deal.

Huh? Do you even read the posts, or you grab a sentence and start going? Didnt I say you are right? I meant the way of thinking in people going just like your own example of one people drowning in the river and it had nothing to do with South Koreans specifically or them getting rich and by the way if you care to really read my messages i didnt mention anywhere the people, and i never refer to people of any nation here. And can you distinguish the political actions of a country from the actual people living in it? You seem to refer to S Koreans against anyone else, I dont. But you can interpret and read whatever you write, I do not really care.

And I have not confused the subjects, it was a looong talk about the korean war that went nowhere.

Thanx for info, I have news for you also, my country, we have already gone bankrupt. Anything else?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Why are people talking about North and South Korean reunification? The two countries are still technically at war so it will be long time before reunification.

People suggested that maybe a single Korean delegation could be sent to the 2018 Olympic Games. I implied that was impossible because I assumed a single delegation meant a single country (which isn't the case), and a single country/reunification would be so difficult to create that I doubted the possibility of the Olympic Games even happening.

 

[prettykeys]

Huh? Do you even read the posts, or you grab a sentence and start going?

I read deeper into your posts than you seem to be able to articulate, but is captured in the words and phrases that you use.

Didnt I say you are right? I meant the way of thinking in people going just like your own example of one people drowning in the river and it had nothing to do with South Koreans specifically or them getting rich and by the way if you care to really read my messages i didnt mention anywhere the people, and i never refer to people of any nation here.And can you distinguish the political actions of a country from the actual people living in it? You seem to refer to S Koreans against anyone else, I dont. But you can interpret and read whatever you write, I do not really care.

You said that I was "right" with my example of drowning (e.g. a life permanently lost) and then compared it to the mere inconvenience of being involved in some kind of "investigation".

Furthermore, you don't have to specify "South Korean people" when you talk about S. Korea the country "preferring" to get richer and richer while the North Korean people suffer, it is already implied. Countries do not want wealth and the things afforded by wealth because they are not conscious beings, it's the people of countries that run them and live in them. And it's just not true that simple wealth is the ultimate underlying issue that S. Koreans are afraid to contend with.

And I have not confused the subjects, it was a looong talk about the korean war that went nowhere.

You are very confused. The conversation started because you took the perspective that all war is bad and that foreign interventions were bad. I disagreed with those notions because the Korean War is a perfect example of "foreign meddling" by the U.S. and its allies that saved S. Korea. If there was no war, then the North would have captured the entire Korean peninsula with the backing of Communist China and the USSR without a squeak.

But it reminds me one older conversation we had, went like why go and kill yourself in a country on the other half of the planet, to save a nation that you have no connection to?

Like I said, I was never debating that issue at all. Maybe you were debating it in your own mind. Your ridiculous characterization of the conversation is something I am not surprised at, because you seem to take simple positions on complex issues. I am forever grateful to the U.S.A. because it never had a moral obligation to the Koreans to intervene, but it did, and it was good for the S. Korean people. Likewise, not only does S. Korea NOT have a moral obligation to push for reunification with the North at the first opportunity (even if it has that desire to), the whole issue is wrought with problems like "When?" "How much can the wealth of the South sustain the development of both lands?" "To what extent may the quality of lives of the South Koreans be compromised, and how much and how quickly can the suffering of the North Koreans be eased with that price?" "How big is the potential for social and economic ruin, and how long might it go?" etc.

Thanx for info, I have news for you also, my country, we have already gone bankrupt. Anything else?

Yeah...I don't think anyone is going to be consulting you on how they should bankrupt their own countries and convince themselves it's a good thing.

Olympia, I am optimistic. It's just not the best time right now, but the political resolve of harsh regimes tend to change. When reality sufficiently wears down the North Korean leaders and they loosen their stranglehold, and begin cooperating more with the rest of the world, I am sure it's a challenge the S. Koreans would gladly take up. Heck, if I am still alive when that happens, I would pay voluntary "taxes" from here in Canada to support the endeavour, and I know I am not the only one.

 

[Mathman]

...the Korean War is a perfect example of "foreign meddling" by the U.S. and its allies that saved S. Korea.

... I am forever grateful to the U.S.A. because it never had a moral obligation to the Koreans to intervene, but it did, and it was good for the S. Korean people.

Still, I think it is safe to say that wars are not undertaken for reasons of altruism.

Governments make that pitch to their own people, and it almost always works because we are eager to see ourselves as the good guys. But not all people where the United States has sent troops are grateful.

 

[seniorita]

Yeah...I don't think anyone is going to be consulting you on how they should bankrupt their own countries and convince themselves it's a good thing.

I did not say it is a good thing, are you really writing this sentence to me that I dont know what future holds for young people like me in Greece? What between the lines do you read and this came out? This is your whole contribution of an opinion to a country thats already in trouble financially?
You seemed to say I dont know what it means to get bankrupted on earth. You took the posts of mine and either implying I m an idiot or a nationalist, really at this point I just think you look for trouble on your own. Your whole post is ironic and rude either of what sentences I can articulate ( i have news for you, not all of us are native english speakers and I refuse to let people mock me or others on this) or what I can say and be ridiculous, where we discuss a political phenomenon which has not happened only to your own country, you somehow take it personally that it is about S Koreans specifically and on top of that you call me actually a racist where really you just seem obsessed to me.

Just because one country benefited from certain actions or an intervention, have you thought or care what effect these actions had or have for other people outside this country? This I was just asking back then. You truly debate on your own here, nowhere in my posts I said Korea should unite or get bankrupt, or that people are that arrogant and only want to get richer, and it is a good thing, R U STILL in kindergarten? There was a discussion for a political situation like Germany or Korean that I was asking informations and we talk about how people from both sides probably feel/felt about it . Like Medusa posted how Germans reacted from both sides and it is called a conversation.

By trying to read DEEP between the lines, you forgot to read the actual lines. It is not that difficult. Just because you can see 3 pink elephants between the lines I m not going to prove I m not one of them. Grow up.

 

[lowtherlore]

AFP reports: A recent Gallup poll says nearly 60% of the South Koreans is in favor of a unified Korean team in 2018, with 30% against it..

AFP: South Koreans support unified 2018 Olympic team

I really want to see a breakthrough in North Korea – U.S. relations soon. A peace treaty replacing the existing cease-fire agreement. That will be the first step. Believe me, the North Koreans really want this. Among other U.S. foreign interventions, what happened to Iraq and its leader should have scared the **** out of them.

Over the years the North Koreans have made it clear that they want to embark on a controlled market economy program of their own, following in the footsteps of China, and that they want to improve the relation with the U.S. They have another worthy economic benchmark to take notes and learn from in its southern counterpart. I hope they improve on their current state of things, with reciprocal helps from South Korea, the U.S., China and Russia. A collapse in the north would be a nightmare for South Korea or China.

 

[dorispulaski]

I'm afraid the latest move is not encouraging for North Korea / US relations. It does however show a strong commitment by the US to South Korea:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/12_04.html

from NHK

The USS Texas is this submarine
USS Texas

US nuclear sub shown in S.Korea

The US Navy opened its nuclear-powered submarine to the media in South Korea on Monday in an apparent show of deterrence against North Korea. The USS Texas made a port call in the South Korean city of Pusan on Saturday for its crewmembers' rest. The ship is armed with Tomahawk cruise missiles and has smart sensors and infrared laser rangefinders to collect military intelligence. The vessel's commander, Robert Roncska, said he and his crewmembers are ready to take action if North Korea provokes South Korea.

Last year, North Korea allegedly sank a South Korean naval vessel and shelled Yeonpyeong Island off the west coast of the Korean Peninsula. Observers say the United States appears to be trying to discourage further military provocations by showing that a high-performance submarine has been deployed around the Korean Peninsula.

Tuesday, July 12, 2011 01:52 +0900 (JST)