Lysacek out of Grand Prix; at odds with USFS

[jcoates]

I am not and never have been a huge fan of Evan. I deeply respect his work ethic and ability to figure out an alternate path to winning. That's what I look for in all athletes, rather than cloning themselves after a trend or resting on the laurels of the their most obvious skill or talent. BTW, I also respect, but do not love Plushenko's skating. However, his repeated declarations that his approach is and should be the only means by which the sport is judged annoy me and ring hollow.

Also, I have never said fans can't or shouldn't wish for special or spectacular moments. I just don't feel they should be expected to happen all the time. People seem to keep missing that very basic fact about which I have been exceedingly clear.

My other point, is that excellence should not be so narrowly defined as being exclusive to a jump, the approach of one skater, or the aesthetic ideals of a segment of fans. There is room for variety and excellence can exist in a range of ways. Determined, steady hard work and its thoughtful application to the task at hand to craft a measured outcome is in and of itself a form of excellence; and many philosophers have concluded that it is a higher form of excellence in many regards. It may not be viscerally thrilling, but it can be very satisfying.

 

[Mathman]

Roger Federer's tennis style is quite beautiful to watch.

But Ricardo (Pancho) Gonzalez was pure poetry on the courts.

 

[gmyers]

After Boitano won in 1988 who won after him without doing a 3A? No one. Every person has a done a 3A and then 3A and quads. And then in 2010 depending on who you ask not only did Lysacek not do a quad but he didn't do a 3A- though there were three ratified 3A's for him. 20+ year old jump standards were thrown right out the window!

 

[Vash01]

After Boitano won in 1988 who won after him without doing a 3A? No one. Every person has a done a 3A and then 3A and quads. And then in 2010 depending on who you ask not only did Lysacek not do a quad but he didn't do a 3A- though there were three ratified 3A's for him. 20+ year old jump standards were thrown right out the window!

I am with you.

A sport progresses with the years. Athletes/skaters challenge themselves to do more difficult things. Chris Bowman never won an Olympic medal because (among many things) he never was able to land a consistent triple axel, when most other skaters were landing or at least attempting two triple axels in their LPs.

I have a problem with Evan choosing to do less difficult things AND winning with it. I would rather see a Todd Eldredge who works hard to develop a quad and challenges himself at the 2002 Olympics, and ultimately loses his last chance of winning an Olympic medal of any color. I respect Todd for that. I don't understand the "I just want to see a clean skate, so take out all the difficulty" viewpoint by so many on chat boards. If FS is to be a sport, athleticism has to be rewarded and not sneered at.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I guess the question then becomes why is there only one measure of athleticism?

 

[jcoates]

Good for the triple axel and quad toe for sustaining a 20 year trend...I'll stop the presses and will be sure to send them congratulatory notes.

In other news, the triple loop won Dick Button a second gold in 52 and basically went unused again until the late 60s. The next OGM to actually land one in the event, AFAIK, was Curry in 76. For much of that time Salchows ruled the roost, with the occasional toe loop crashing the party. I've already mentioned the 12 year lutz gap.

Some trends take off immediately and are sustained afterwards. Others take longer to set in and have fits, gaps and restarts along the way to consistent use. Hamilton never did triple loops, neither did a lot of his and Boitano's contemporaries. Top men have only done them consistently since the early 90s. Yu-Na Kim stopped doing triple loops and most top women today have one triple from the list that they don't do and replace with 999 2a combos. Whereas ten years ago, all women did toe loop through lutz without exception. Yamaguchi had a terrible salchow. Chinks in the armor of those champions? Yes. They still won. What's your point?

BTW, Vash01, Chris Bowman failed to win an Olympic medal because he was a headcase who couldnt't sustain a training regimen for all the money in the world. He was actually fairly out of shape in 92 as well and his weight affected his jumping and speed. Also Petr Barna won bronze and the Euro title that year with no 3A. Jump for jump those two were of very similar quality.

Moving on to the actual point of this thread, it was interesting that Scott sort of glossed over Evan needing to have a signed athlete agreement before he can compete. I understand his point about Evan needing to just go ahead and compete if that is his intention. It's a fair point, which I don't think is necessarily in dispute even by Evan. If Frank's interview is to be taken on its face, then he's clearly working hard enough to make an attempt. It would be a waste of his time to do so if he did not have an intention to return at some point. He does not need to practice quads of new combos to skate in SOI.

But proceduraly, he can't begin to compete without a signed agreement. It may sound silly, but it's true. I don't think it's smart to sign anything that may work against you in some way just to reach a larger goal. I'm sure this will be resolved in the end given how public the initial breakdown has been.

 

[iluvtodd]

Yeah, I hesitated adding her to this list, except that she did pull out something extraordinary at a time she could have just crumbled. She even did a triple Axel. This was most likely her only chance to medal at the Olympics, and she managed to do it. Considering the pressure she was under, I would call that the skate of a lifetime...with the qualification that she had other, even better skates of a lifetime--if that makes any sense. It's not worth arguing about the wording, but I just thought that what she did that night deserved recognition and accolades.

While Midori did have a problematic short program and difficulties in the beginning of her 1992 Olympic free skate, I too, was thrilled to pieces that she got in that triple axel. What I loved most of all was to see that smile come back on her face in Albertville. That said, she was spectacular in her free skate in 1988 Calgary, and @ 1989 worlds. I'll never forget her collision with the camera, and how she came right back onto the ice, either. I loved her "Rose of Pain" pro program too. I miss her, and wish we could see her in person.

 

[Bluebonnet]

jcoates, I really appreciate you've taken so much time and written such a philosophical post.

If FS is to be a sport, athleticism has to be rewarded and not sneered at.

Agree.

I guess the question then becomes why is there only one measure of athleticism?

I don't think athleticism is measured by only one element. There are a lot. But quad is the most obvious one. Can't do it, it definitely means that one is inadequate in this area. So all the argument around athleticism evolved from here.

 

[herios]

Getting back to Evan and just for fun, now that the Men's short program at SA has been skated what are your thoughts on how Evan would have placed, given the SP scores of the men,
me thinks Evan if he skated at the same caliber as his 2010 season (and who recently stated himself that he was in great shape) would have placed first in the SP.

Mute point and frankly waste of time. He didn't compete. What was more nteresting to hear was that recently Evan changed management companies we were told, from a company specialized in athletes management to one specialized to manage rock stars and actors.
They might not have been familiar to know that in this sport there is not much money and demanded too much from the USFSA.

 

[Bluebonnet]

What was more nteresting to hear was that recently Evan changed management companies we were told, from a company specialized in athletes management to one specialized to manage rock stars and actors.
They might not have been familiar to know that in this sport there is not much money anddemanded too much from the USFSA.

That definitely says something. Will he really comeback? Big question mark untill Nationals.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Maybe Lysacek pictures himself a rock star and actor now? With the high profile if not the profession.

In CBC SA broadcast, they talked a bit about him and had Caroll go on and on about how well trained and ready he was without explaining at all why he pulled out. Then CBC brought up the management change.

 

[herios]

Maybe Lysacek pictures himself a rock star and actor now? With the high profile if not the profession.

In CBC SA broadcast, they talked a bit about him and had Caroll go on and on about how well trained and ready he was without explaining at all why he pulled out. Then CBC brought up the management change.

There was talk about Evan trying to become an actor,so why not get into that. Close to Hollywood, celebrity already....

 

[Mathman]

One trouble with the quad is that skaters put so much effort into that one jump that then the rest of the program falls apart. Exemple, Dornbush at Skate America. Kozuka at Skate America. Even Van der Perren (who really does have a quad) promptly missed both of his triple Axels.

To really benefit from doing a quad you have to be like Yagudin, who could do it just as a matter of course without sacrificing the rest of the program.

 

[Kunstrijdster]

Van der Perren stepped out of one 3A. That was all. (He repeated 3T and 3F) And Kozuka's problems I wouldn't solely attribute to his failed quad. He had good showings before, where he fell on it (which, sadly, happens often).

I wonder if Evan regrets not participating in SA. Even without a quad, a decently consistent Evan would have won this handily, I think.

 

[seniorita]

One trouble with the quad is that skaters put so much effort into that one jump that then the rest of the program falls apart. Exemple, Dornbush at Skate America. Kozuka at Skate America. Even Van der Perren (who really does have a quad) promptly missed both of his triple Axels.

To really benefit from doing a quad you have to be like Yagudin, who could do it just as a matter of course without sacrificing the rest of the program.

Yagudin and Plushenko were doing two quads and two 3axels and were not missing any jump after but that was before Cop so the demands of Lp were different.

 

[jcoates]

Yagudin and Plushenko were doing two quads and two 3axels and were not missing any jump after but that was before Cop so the demands of Lp were different.

True. The spins are each manadated to last so many revolutions and footwork sequences must cover so much ice, that the skaters's energy levels end up being very depleted for jumps.

 

[Olympia]

Gloriosky! It's exhausting even just being a fan. How demanding must it be just to be an average skater, let alone a world-level competitor? This is why I find it really hard to criticize skaters. Look at what they have to do!

 

[Bluebonnet]

I wonder if Evan regrets not participating in SA. Even without a quad, a decently consistent Evan would have won this handily, I think.

I'm wondering that too. If Evan is "extremely trained" and "in the best shape of his life", winning this year's SA must have been a piece of cake for him.

 

[pangtongfan]

A 26 year old who has had injuries over the summer, and hasnt skated competitively in almost 2 years is not going to be "in the shape of their life". Evan's words were obviously propaganda of sorts, and withdrawing from a weak Skate America field is only further proof of that.

 

[herios]

I'm wondering that too. If Evan is "extremely trained" and "in the best shape of his life", winning this year's SA must have been a piece of cake for him.

Big "IF". Easy to say, when you are not competing. "Best shape of his life", yeah sure