ISU Recognizes Mroz's Quad Lutz!

[fscric]

... I sense that some wish the Chan or even Plushenko (who came darn close) had gotten there first. ...

I'm curious, where do you get this idea? I glanced through the thread and I don't think that's the case. For me, while I'm a fan of Patrick Chan, I don't dream of him getting a quad lutz any time soon, all along I thought Adam Rippon would be the one landing the first one in competition.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Jcoates, I don't think most people begrudge Mroz or feel he has to qualify in some other aspects to be worthy of the record. There may just be some wish for the excitment and even higher prestige accompany his achievement,witnessed and shared by a multitude of fans all over the world when it happened. Kevin Reynolds has never been a real contender on a big stage but his 2 SP quads record has been unquestionably accepted by all. Currently there are quite a few skaters regcognized for their quad ability though they are not World medalist or close to being one, just as others are recognized for winning competitions, with or without quads or the greatest spins, etc. We can recognize different abilities and achievements as they are.

 

[jcoates]

Brandon Mroz has successfully done the single most difficult element in figure skating history to date, that is quite a feat. I am excited for this breakthrough in the sport. But a little part of me wishes a better all-around skater took this honor. There's something rather satisfying about Kurt Browning (the ur-skater) being the first to land a ratified quad (yeah, yeah it's debatable but it's also what's official).

This is where I got it. The fact that no one disagreed with it at the time, came across to me a silent agreement or at least neutrality.

PS, Skatefiguring I entirely understand the impulse to see it done at a big event and as part of a larger group of fans/audience member. I've made that pretty clear already. I understand how exciting and memorable it would be. I've seen such events myself. But really that's beside the point. We have collectively confused or overlapped, setting and our own personal desire to be satisfied with the doubting significance of the accomplishment in question. This is not about us as fans and how excited seeing the jump done in front of a large crowd or on a tv broadcast may make us. This is about Brandon and the fact the he has finally succeeded and been duly rewarded for achieving something many others have failed at. The rest is needless hair-splittting IMO and unfair to him.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The rest is needless hair-splittting IMO and unfair to him.

It's not needless hair-splitting at all. It's a question of proper technique and if the jump met the criteria of a universally accepted rule. If the jump wasn't landed within 1/4 turn then it's not a satisfactory Quad attempt. It's unfair to EVERY OTHER COMPETITOR if he is receiving points for something he shouldn't be.

The relative lack of height on the jump, the caught edge on the landing which is very perceivable in real-time, the fact that he pre-rotates his toepick a full half-turn before getting into the air (and thus not deserving any leeway at all beyond the standard 1/4 turn on the landing), and the stop-motion shot of the jump showing what could very well be an underrotated landing...I have large doubts about the validity of this "Quad" Lutz.

 

[Serious Business]

This is where I got it. The fact that no one disagreed with it at the time, came across to me a silent agreement or at least neutrality.

I did say that, but I also defended, quite vigorously, his achievement regardless of the setting.

Mroz landed his quad lutz at an ISU-sanctioned competition. He didn't get any mulligans. It's not a practice session. The music starts, and he only gets one opportunity to do his program and land that jump for an ever-watchful tech panel. He gets no more chances than he would if it were the Olympics. He had one shot and he pulled the trigger and hit a bullseye.

You can speculate that there's less psychological pressure and more/less crowd support/ambiance, whatever else. But that's pure guessing, pure assumptions that rightly have nothing to do with the rules of the sport. A competition can always be harder/easier on a skater psychologically for any number of factors. When it comes to breaking sports records, all that counts is whether they did it at an official competition and whether the official organization acknowledges it.

 

[jcoates]

It's not needless hair-splitting at all. It's a question of proper technique and if the jump met the criteria of a universally accepted rule. If the jump wasn't landed within 1/4 turn then it's not a satisfactory Quad attempt. It's unfair to EVERY OTHER COMPETITOR if he is receiving points for something he shouldn't be.

The relative lack of height on the jump, the caught edge on the landing which is very perceivable in real-time, the fact that he pre-rotates his toepick a full half-turn before getting into the air (and thus not deserving any leeway at all beyond the standard 1/4 turn on the landing), and the stop-motion shot of the jump showing what could very well be an underrotated landing...I have large doubts about the validity of this "Quad" Lutz.

As far as I can tell, you are the only one really making an argument about the technical validity of the jump. Most everyone else is focused on validity being tied to venue and perhaps the skater doing it. Two entirely separate arguments.

BTW, our opinions on the technical validity of the jump don't matter a whit with regard to it's ratification. Many first landings of a new jump have been arguable: 1st 2a, 1st 3r, especially 1st 3a, 1st 4t, Miki's 1st 4s, Ito's 1st worlds 3a (she landed one at NHK the previous fall), Biellmann's 1st 3z. All their landings were scratchy at best and did not necessarily meet the ultimate textbook definition of a thoroughly clean, picture perfect jump at their respective times either. They still got official ratification by the ISU. They are the only ones who count in this whether we like it or not. Point is, we can nitpick all we want if that makes us feel better. In the end, all that matters is that Brandon's name will forever be in the record books.

BTW, it's interesting to point out that Midori is largely remembered as doing the first 3a at worlds and most people post the vid of her in Paris and note it that way. But she actually did it first internationally and far better at a much smaller home event that, at the time, very few people were able to watch.

ETA: To be fair to Serious Business, my point was more about the reaction to it than the original point itself.

 

[dorispulaski]

Here's Midori's LP with a gorgeous 3A:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEqxigccU1s

It was filmed, and was available in the US on ESPN cable, for that matter.

I would hardly call NHK Trophy a little home event. It was before the Grand Prix was organized as a series, but it was as it is now, one of the really big autumn international competitions. 1988/1989 was the 10th year NHK Trophy had been held.

Here's who was there for the ladies:

1 Midori Ito JPN 1.5
2 Kristi Yamaguchi USA 3.0
3 Marina Kielmann FDR 5.5
4 Yvonne Gómez SPA 6.0
5 Simone Koch DDR 6.5
6 Yukiko Kashihara JPN 10.5
7 Bo Zhang CHN 11.0
8 Beatrice Gelmini ITA 11.5
9 Mari Asanuma JPN 13.0
10 Tamara Téglássy HUN 14.5
11 Lotta Falkenbäck SWE 16.0
12 Sung Jin Byun KOR 18.0


The men's field was even more impressive:
1 Alexander Fadeev URS 1.5
2 Petr Barna CZE 3.5
3 Kurt Browning CAN 4.0
4 Daniel Doran USA 6.5
5 Makoto Kano JPN 7.0
6 Todd Eldredge USA 9.0
7 Yuri Tsimbaliuk URS 10.5
8 Shubin Zhang CHN 12.0
9 Cameron Medhurst AUS 15.5
10 Peter Johansson SWE 15.5
11 Tatsuya Fujii JPN 16.5
12 Sung Jing KOR 17.0
13 Axel Médéric FRA 17.5


Pairs
1 Larisa Selezneva, Oleg Makarov URS 1.5
2 Elena Bechke, Denis Petrov EUN 3.0
3 Kristi Yamaguchi, Rudy Galindo USA 4.5
4 Isabelle Brasseur, Lloyd Eisler CAN 6.0
5 Sharon Carz, Doug Williams USA 7.5
6 Wa Mi, Jun Fan CHN 9.0

Ice Dance

1Marina Klimova / Sergei Ponomarenko Soviet Union 2.0
2 Maya Usova / Alexander Zhulin Soviet Union 4.0
3 April Sargent / Russ Witherby United States 6.0
4 Dominique Yvon / Frédéric Palluel France 8.4
5 Jeanne Miley / Michael Verlich United States 10.4
6 Andrea Weppelmann / Hendryk Schamberger West Germany 12.4
7 Kaoru Takino / Kenji Takino Japan 14.4
8 Lyuang Liu / Xiaolei Zhao China 16.4

In fact, I am just salivating reading the lineup! How I would like to go back in time and see this competition!!!

So, what I want to know, is why ISU did not ratify Midori's axel right then and there?

 

[jcoates]

Doris, I understand NHK's size and importance. I mentioned it b/c a) it is undeniably smaller than worlds or Olympics; b) nearly a quarter century ago, a much larger percentage of households lacked cable tv (mine certainly did) so a lot of folks missed it; c) the other means by which we currently disseminate information about such feats and international competitions in general (i.e. widespread internet access, video sharing sites, live streaming video, wikipedia, etc.) did not exist; d) the GP did not exist to boost the importance of such events: and e) the world was far more disconnected than now, so that from a foreigner's perspective NHK might seem to be just a home event if one lacked sufficient access to adequate info to correct that impression.

So relative to now, Midori's accomplishment was seen by a relative few and only those die hard fans, coaches and skaters really knew about what she was doing until she repeated the feat at Worlds in Paris in from of a much larger and more widespread (in terms of interest) audience. In fact, before youtube, I suspect that far more people had not missed seeing that clip than those who had view it. That does not diminish what she did in the least. In fact I wish far more skating fans were actively aware of when and where she did the jump first.

As for the ISU and ratifying that jump at NHK, I can't answer your question. I can only suggest that a change in mindset has occurred and they now realize that in this age of cameras everywhere, rapid video dissemination, and reduced importance of national boundaries, they must make every effort to fairly and adequately record competitions, or encourage national feds to do so, in order to accurately track the technical progress of the sport.

 

[dorispulaski]

My thought is that it is not the fact of cameras and dissemination; that was present at NHK in 1988, and a world wide available (if not in all places) camera at that. it's the fact that today, under COP, the camera is set up in an ISU approved COP judging system location/configuration. The Camera is now, so to speak, an official "judge". Despite being there in 1988, the camera was completely incidental, it was, so to speak, a guest at NHK. In 2011 at this year's NHK, and in Colorado Springs, the camera is now an integral part of the technical and judging panels.


And in fact, Mroz will be at NHK this year for his first GP outing. I hope he lands his 4lz there!

 

[jcoates]

That is a fair point. Prior to COP, there would be absolutely no question of this jump's validity. But now that we use cameras routinely as a judging tool our standard for success has become so narrow as to be nearly ridiculous. BTW, I say "we" intentionally because fans make their own attempts to break down every jump via their own tools (DVR, computers, etc.) to the same extent as the real judges.

On the other hand, the camera has been an official judge in a great many other sports for decades.

It is what it is at this point.

I second your hope that Brandon will land the jump at NHK and elsewhere. Have to take my mother to her doctor appt. I'll check in later. Cheers.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Wow! Never thought that someone would challenge the official ratification. I thought ISU would have been extremely careful on any of them. I'm sure next time anyone wants to submit their request, they'd think twice more than before.

Go Brandon!:thumbsup: Show them on ice at NHK!

 

[gkelly]

My thought is that it is not the fact of cameras and dissemination; that was present at NHK in 1988, and a world wide available (if not in all places) camera at that. it's the fact that today, under COP, the camera is set up in an ISU approved COP judging system location/configuration. The Camera is now, so to speak, an official "judge". Despite being there in 1988, the camera was completely incidental, it was, so to speak, a guest at NHK.

If the cameras present at the time were only TV cameras, there's no guarantee that they would even be focused on the skater's feet at the time of the historic event, should one happen to occur.

I don't know what the restrictions were on officially ratifying a new or difficult jump under 6.0. Both video (from TV feeds if necessary) and a certain number/level of ISU officials present might have been required, which would rule out most club competitions in the 1980s-90s.

Now that there is official video available, as Doris points out, and a technical panel trained in determining jump rotation, it makes more sense to accept that video and the protocols as evidence. But the protocol is not sufficient evidence on its own -- ISU officials had to review the video as well.

Wow! Never thought that someone would challenge the official ratification.

Has anyone challenged it officially? Or just Blades of Passion nitpicking on a message board, having watched the video in its youtube-degraded state rather than the original copy?

 

[Bluebonnet]

Has anyone challenged it officially? Or just Blades of Passion nitpicking on a message board, having watched the video in its youtube-degraded state rather than the original copy?

No, not that I know of (like I know a lot). I was refering to BOP's post in this thread and some from FSU.

 

[jcoates]

Lynn Rutherford is tweeting that Rippon plans to go for the 4z at SC.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Lynn Rutherford is tweeting that Rippon plans to go for the 4z at SC.

Too bad, his plan was a few months late. Or the record would have been his. Still, if he could go for it, good for him!

 

[jcoates]

If he lands it though, he'd still be the first to land it internationally, in an ISU event during a televised competition. That would still be a pretty significant feat and might satisfy the complaints, skepticism or disappointment that some have expressed here.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Too bad, his plan was a few months late. Or the record would have been his.

Not necessarily. I dare say it's a lot harder to land a 4Lz, especially the first one, at SC with some of the world's best Mens competiting and a full house of fans.

 

[dorispulaski]

It depends on the person. Chris Bowman, for example, flew high on adrenaline. He could land stuff in front of a cheering audience that he could never land in practice.

Other people freeze up with the big audience.


It depends on the person.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Adam Rippon, OTOH, is not Chris Bowman.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Now that there is official video available, as Doris points out, and a technical panel trained in determining jump rotation, it makes more sense to accept that video and the protocols as evidence. But the protocol is not sufficient evidence on its own -- ISU officials had to review the video as well.

Has anyone challenged it officially? Or just Blades of Passion nitpicking on a message board, having watched the video in its youtube-degraded state rather than the original copy?

This is what the official ISU release says:

"The ISU was informed and based on footage placed on Youtube was able to confirm that Brandon Mroz’s (USA) performed a quadruple Lutz on September 16, 2011 during the Colorado Springs Invitational, a U.S. Figure Skating sanctioned Event."

For all we know, that's how the ISU officials made their decision. That's what their official statement says, after all. It's also kind of funny how the official ISU statement about this supposedly groundbreaking new achievement is just 2 sentences long and a link to a Youtube video.