Men's Long Program

[Violet Bliss]

Orser has called Fernandez a bit of a loose connan he tries to reel in a bit, and also that he didn't want to train spins, which could have gotten him to about 89 points in the SP. He also mentioned Fernandez needs to be more fit, which was evident in his LP performance. After the SP Orser told Fernandez his life would change and it did right away with the media attention. But I think the effect will be paramount and permenant. As for grabbing his behind, that was a reference to something up thread.

I'm not sure about many quad successes this season though. Fernandez was already one of the best quad jumpers in the World last year. In addition he has flair and the potential to be a complete package under proper coaching. I think many young skaters are mistaken to think just sticking a quad or two in their programs will get them to chase Chan or at least up their rankings significantly. Practice success on Youtube generates buzz but it's completely different to do them in a program in competition, with tech panel watching. There will likely be more successful jumps simply because of many more attempts but I suspect there would be more splatfests too. Under rotated "quads" can backfire badly, earning the skater measly 2 or 3 points and messing up the program on top. How long have Takahashi and Rippon been doing their quads now? There has not been a real pay off yet. (Of course theirs are potentially record making quads, not a lowly everyday 4T.)

 

[Medusa]

Just rewatched Javi's program - I could watch his Quad Salchow all day. Most Quad Salchows have the tendency to look tighter, scratchier than Quad Toes. But this one was incredible, the ISU can put in a video manual. There wasn't even much preperation time.

 

[Blades of Passion]

His Quad Salchow even had a transition going directly into it. He should do it in the Short Program.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Agreed. My reaction: "Nice triple salchow".

 

[wallylutz]

Orser has called Fernandez a bit of a loose connan he tries to reel in a bit, and also that he didn't want to train spins, which could have gotten him to about 89 points in the SP. He also mentioned Fernandez needs to be more fit, which was evident in his LP performance.

Javier is a young lad and never had a really good skating coach (yes, I don't consider Morozov a good skating coach, he used to be one but not anymore). It is no wonder he may be a bit dismissive towards basic skating skills and spins while overly emphasized his jumps. Now that he learned he lost to the World Champion by tiny margins even though he outjumped him, due to spins and basic skating skills, I am confident that attitude will change pretty quickly.

I'm not sure about many quad successes this season though. Fernandez was already one of the best quad jumpers in the World last year.

There are a lot of men who can land Quads but not that many who can put two types of Quads in the same program. Being able to do a Quad Toe wouldn't really set yourself apart anymore. I can count on one hand men who can do two types of Quads in a single program but I will need more than my two hands to count the number of men who do Quad Toes. This may not seem like much but the difference can be significant. The primary advantage is that it liberates a combo slot, not because a 4S has a 0.2 base value higher than 4T. When Chan does two 4T in the program, he had to spend one combo slot but Fernandez could save it and allowed him to repeat another Triple twice, and in his case, he can do two 3-3 using 3T as the 2nd jump. Chan's work around of 3Lz+1L+3S carries a higher execution difficulty so when he stumbled and fell on the connecting steps, he wasn't able to put that in, significantly impacted his base value by about 5 points, approximately the value a Triple Loop.

In addition he has flair and the potential to be a complete package under proper coaching. I think many young skaters are mistaken to think just sticking a quad or two in their programs will get them to chase Chan or at least up their rankings significantly.

It is true that Fernandez had sort of paid his dues to be considered seriously now but the reality is men capable of doing two Quads are few. In addition to Quads, they also need to have the rest of the jumps, like the Triple Axel. That is even more difficult. For now, the number of potential challengers that fit this profile is few but I do expect this number to rise significantly over the next 2 years.

Practice success on Youtube generates buzz but it's completely different to do them in a program in competition, with tech panel watching. There will likely be more successful jumps simply because of many more attempts but I suspect there would be more splatfests too. Under rotated "quads" can backfire badly, earning the skater measly 2 or 3 points and messing up the program on top. How long have Takahashi and Rippon been doing their quads now? There has not been a real pay off yet. (Of course theirs are potentially record making quads, not a lowly everyday 4T.)

That's not what I had in mind. I don't consider Rippon's Quad to be reliable enough for him to be one of those challengers. He changes coaches faster than he changes his costumes and nothing I have seen so far actually make me feel he is one of those skaters to watch out this year. Takahashi is becoming a headcase. It's been several competitions since last year that he messed up several jumps in his programs and the ever elusive 4F attempts are not helpful to him. It's becoming a pattern and his PCS is beginning to feel like sympathy points - not a good sign. I am sorry to say he is unlikely going to be a factor anymore with the deep field in his country, don't be surprised if he doesn't even make it to Nice. What you need to consider are other men with real Quad threats such as Brezina, Verner, Mroz and Gachinski. I didn't include any of the Frenchmen in this group because they have some real issues right now but it's almost a given the 4 above mentioned men will have two Quads in their free program and likely Quad in the SP as well. Mroz wasn't at last year's world and has sort of been flying under the radar and isn't considered very "artistic" in his country nor the buzz factor. But of all the American men currently competing, he's got the most consistent big arsenals and is the 1st man to land 4Lz in competition as ratified by the ISU. So here you are, the 4 above + Fernandez, you have easily 4-5 guys who can go head to head with Chan on Quads and may even do two Triple Axels in their FS to Chan's one. This is a drastic different landscape compared to last year, don't dismiss these challengers as some out of the blue Soviet skaters who do Quads but never make it to the World Championship.

 

[Violet Bliss]

In another thread I mentioned Brezina, Fernandez, Gachinski, Hanyu, besides Chan and Kozuka as contenders this season or in a near future. They all have reliable quads, except Kozuka, and different strengths and weaknesses, whith Chan being the strongest all round, i.e. both TES and PCS. That was why I was quite sure of Chan's win last night as I said he was up on Fernandez with PCS and on Takahashi with TES. Of course, when he competes with all the top guys, then some mistakes on his part and someone else stepping up would change the game. However, Chan has a different attitude now, not putting winning titles as top priority but to raise the bar, improving himself in all aspects. Ironically, such mindset probably makes it easier for him to win.

For me, Takahashi and Joubert are past their peaks, Amodio is off in a bad direction, and I don't believe Verner has what it takes for various reasons. Oh, I don't want to forget Oda and I wish him an overdue Worlds medal this year. eta that I still consider Abbott as the top American Man. If only he could bring it for once at the biggest event.

eta. Since I'm rattling, I want to add that most of these contenders still lack a champion mindset. Amodio is cocky enough, maybe too much so, and not with the best guidance. I see Gachinski, and now Fernandez likely to build up their confidence and belief fast, and hopefully Kozuka is boyed by his Worlds medal but his showing at SA was disappointing.

 

[Puchi]

I SO wanted Javier to win this, but after watching the LP I have to agree with the results.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Last week saw Viktoria Helgelsson become the first Swedish skater to medal on the GP circuit.

This week saw Javier Fernandez become the first Spanish skater to medal on the GP circuit.

I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed that CoC will have no firsts like that (a quick glance tells us that only nine countries are competing, and all have medalists representing them). NHK could have a first with Elene Gedevanishvili, though.

 

[sunny0760]

So here you are, the 4 above + Fernandez, you have easily 4-5 guys who can go head to head with Chan on Quads and may even do two Triple Axels in their FS to Chan's one. This is a drastic different landscape compared to last year, ....

Of course, when he competes with all the top guys, then some mistakes on his part and someone else stepping up would change the game.

I agree. Men's field these days is much more exciting and full of fun. New guys are coming and Fernandez appears to be a serious contender. So refreshing. Those who keep on insisting that Chan will always win even if he falls 5 or 6 times are wrong. Especially this year and from now on.

I think Chan is not the most consistent jumper ever(I think many will agree). Last year, he had a new arsenal of 4T and full-rotated his 4Ts even when he falls and did more 4Ts at the competitions than other guys' less consistent quads. This year is different. As more men have more consistent quads than last year and Chan's 3A is still not so reliable, he should increase the success rate of quads and 3As, which means less falls on his part will assure his win.

Chan is not unbeatable and if he messes up and other men outjump him, he will lose. Simple. I don't understand why some naysayers(sorry, I don't know other word) complain over and over again. If he had fallen on the 3A this time, he would have lost several points on TES and a few points on PE of PCS and defeated. If Chan continues to show such a good edge work and more than that, SPEED and ICE COVERAGE, he will get higher PCS than others, deservingly, IMHO. How higher Chan's PCS were than others this time? Less than 4 points than Takahashi and 6.5 points than Fernandez. Wow, if you want to win Chan, just outjump him and do decent job on spins or other elements. About 10 points lead in TES will make you a clear winner.

Will this be enough for gold (probably)
Shouldn't be, but we all know the judges ...Big surprise on Chan's marks, NO! Stop apologizing Pchid.

If I don't misunderstand, Art&Sport, were you saying Chan's performance should not be enought for gold? When you were saying this, it was BEFORE Takahashi and Fernandez skate! How can you say someone should not win even before all the competition is over? Do you have an agenda or are you so determined not to recognize any win from Chan regardless of others' skating? I cannot find words other than full of prejudice. Sorry for my poor English but I feel that there are VERY unfair posts here.

 

[sigrid]

Spanish from Spain usually do not eat dinner until about 10PM, sometimes 10:30PM. Even after they move to Canada, it's a habit that doesn't change. Naturally, if Orser is not previously exposed to this, he would be shocked and think his student has an unhealthy eating habit, which is not. Spaniards are generally very fit and lean, definitely much less obesity rate than many other countries. I don't personally know Javier, he may or may not have the habit of siesta as well, which can again impact the training schedule that Orser wants to set. Neither of these should be alarming however, not everyone should eat their dinner at 6PM and the napping habit of many Spaniards came from an adaptation of the generally hot climate in the Iberian penisula. Now that he is living in Toronto, I have a feeling the cold Canadian winter will shock Javier more than anything else.

Well I think I can give you a first-hand opinion
The eating hours depend of a lot of factors, and the most important one is the work. I mean, I finish working around 9:30PM (most shops here close at 9PM) so having dinner before 9:30PM for me is totally impossible. For a sportsman like Javi, who has lived previously in the US and Russia, I don't think is a big deal for him having dinner earlier, he's probably used to it already.

Orser just needs a bit of time for getting used to Javi, he's a skater a bit peculiar and quite different to Orser's previous students.
I think they're gonna be a strong team, look the huge improvement in less than 3 months!


BTW Javi's medal has appeared on Spanish media this weekend. You don't even know how big is what he's doing.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Patrick did not merely fall on a jump; he fell on *footwork*! That, to me, is very important. If footwork is not an indicator of "skating skills", what is? Complaints in the past, which led to the creation of CoP, said that elements other than jumps should matter a lot. That argument has been used, at times, to support the scores of weak jumpers. It was apparently decided that the quality of spins and footwork must be taken seriously, as well as jumps.

Here is the difference: One skater used extraordinary deep edges and speed and did very difficult movements on ice, most of the time the quality of the strokes, spins, turns, and footworks are the best. But he made some mistakes including a hands down on ice. Another skater skated much less on all those qualities except that he didn't make any mistakes on none jumping elements. Which one has better skating skills? I'd definitely say the first one.

Doing the most difficult things in itself is susceptible to making mistakes. I think, like encouraging on the most difficult jumps, you don't want to discourage skaters on risk takings, and don't want to encourage them to skate safe on none jumping elements. Of course, it is intangible as how much flaw is too much? That is up to the judges to decide. Skating Skill is less subjective but it is still subjective. Despite the mistakes Chan has made in his none jumping elements, I think his skating skill is still on the top knotch. That is my take.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Orser has said he is spoiled by Yuna whose work ethics of course is well known. Fernandez is not used to doing all the run throughs, which I don't think is the European training mode. He is also much less disciplined, as per many talented people I suppose. He should realize talents plus discipline is what makes a champion.

BTW, it's not lesser spins that Fernandez lost out on. Chan actually had two level 3 spins and only one level 4, whereas Fernandez had two level 4 and one level 3. The other top guys had all level 4. Chan didn't receive any more GOE points on his spins than the others either.

 

[wonderlen3000]

Mmmmmm Men FS will be a lot more interesting if we have another PChan 2 !!! It will be nonstop entertainment of Chan1 bot vs Chan2 bot. ^^

 

[Violet Bliss]

Mmmmmm Men FS will be a lot more interesting if we have another PChan 2 !!! It will be nonstop entertainment of Chan1 bot vs Chan2 bot. ^^

 

[Violet Bliss]

Finally, Youtube Patrick Chan's LP on British EuroSport that was cut off during live streaming.

 

[fscric]

Thank you so much, I was waiting for this version.

 

[Poodlepal]

Thanks for your input museks8r (fair and balanced). Glad you're not "fuming mad." I'm not either, but I just don't like IJS and the quad -- way too complicated and confusing scoring that takes something away from the artistic whole and the idea of consistency and going clean. I miss the days of 6.0 (not one of the top guys should have received 6.0 for their efforts). But under IJS, wrack up the points, no matter how many marring errors your program contained. Also think the sp and fp should be separated with individual medals for each.

Thanks again PoodlePal. I'm so glad I didn't have to sit through listening to Carruthers' ecstasy episode.

You're welcome. I have to agree with what you said, too. If this had been a 6.0 competition, all the top men would probably be around the same, with Patrick likely still winning the freeskate. Patrick might get 5.8, 5.9, Javier might get 5.8, 5.8, for example--but there was the idea that they were judging what had happened that night. If Patrick fell and Javier skated clean, it would go to Javier. With COP, it's like they're being judged for a fixed quality that doesn't change. If skater A has harder footwork in this year's program and always skates faster than skater B, he will always have that many more points than skater B. People complain when we say that Patrick has a certain # of falls advantage over the others--but it genuinely appears that he does.

This is not to criticize him as much as the CoP. You can figure out how to get as many points as possible and "game the system" a little. I like Evan Lysacek, but he did the same thing--he figured out how to win without doing a quad (and I understand the criticism of that). Patrick figured out how to win without skating clean. Carolina figured out how to win (or do well) without doing the hardest jumps.

So, Art, I hear ya and agree 100%

 

[Violet Bliss]

I like Evan Lysacek, but he did the same thing--he figured out how to win without doing a quad (and I understand the criticism of that). Patrick figured out how to win without skating clean. Carolina figured out how to win (or do well) without doing the hardest jumps.

What you said about these skaters are just insults to deserving champions.Yes Lysacek figured out how to win without a quad and there is nothing wrong with that. Carolina does her best with whatever her physical conditions permit, as did Lysacek. All three have so much in their abilities to compensate for whatever shortcomings at the time and others didn't step up to do better. Do you honestly think Chan tries to win with falls? He is good enough to win with falls in minor events and he wins big at the big events by going more than just clean.

You should complain about the runners up not doing better than a flawed winner. What stop them but themselves?

 

[Bluebonnet]

You can figure out how to get as many points as possible and "game the system" a little. I like Evan Lysacek, but he did the same thing--he figured out how to win without doing a quad (and I understand the criticism of that). Patrick figured out how to win without skating clean. Carolina figured out how to win (or do well) without doing the hardest jumps.

This is absurd! I've seen nothing the same between Lysacek and Patrick Chan!

Lysacek, and Carolina for that matter, deliberately took out the hardest jump/jumps simply because strategically it was not good to put them in, and planned to work around them in order to get the best result. Patrick is working towards the hardest things - jumps and all. And try to make the impossible turn into possible. He's never planned to and never intentionally skated unclean. He set the highest goals to himself which obviously he couldn't reach if he had fall/falls or skated unclean. He gave out and is continueously giving out everything and is doing all he could to skate the best but sometimes he just fell or made mistakes. His act is, somewhat, heroic while the other guy's is .....not so heroic.

If you used Buttle's 2006 Olympics quad toe attempt or used Takahashi's 2010 Olympics quad flip attempt to compare with Patrick Chan, I'd find a little similarity even though they are still not the same. But definitely not Lysacek.

 

[Art&Sport]

I agree. Men's field these days is much more exciting and full of fun. New guys are coming and Fernandez appears to be a serious contender. So refreshing. Those who keep on insisting that Chan will always win even if he falls 5 or 6 times are wrong. Especially this year and from now on.
...

If I don't misunderstand, Art&Sport, were you saying Chan's performance should not be enough for gold? When you were saying this, it was BEFORE Takahashi and Fernandez skate! How can you say someone should not win even before all the competition is over? Do you have an agenda or are you so determined not to recognize any win from Chan regardless of others' skating? I cannot find words other than full of prejudice. Sorry for my poor English but I feel that there are VERY unfair posts here.

Hi sunny0760. It's wonderful that you seem optimistic and sunny (as your user name implies) about figure skating's men's division. That's great. I've followed skating for a long time, and I have differing opinions from many posters. I enjoy hearing your optimistic viewpoints, and you may be right. Let's hope so. Personally, I do not think it is a good thing to continually inflate the marks of a skater (on PCS) when he has errors, simply b/c that skater has wonderful edging qualities and ice coverage. Chan actually fell in the long program during easy moves, so his blade work was a bit faulty there. Also, my feeling is that Chan received overly high marks in his sp after making mistakes.

Frankly, when the media is falling all over themselves to praise a skater, when said skater is falling all over the ice, and also has a history of receiving over-the-top marks for mistake-ridden programs ... oh well. I have always given Chan credit for perfecting his quads, and he skated great at Worlds 2011, and deserved to win -- despite the through the roof marks being ridiculous. Yes, it is too bad that Dai was unable to step up at SC and skate as well as he had in the sp. I wouldn't have minded seeing Dai win gold, Javi win silver, and Chan win bronze. IMO, Chan needs to develop some humility.

My comments that you posted are from page 7 of this thread in quick conversation with other posters during the event. I was responding to someone else who had posted: " ... Will this be enough for gold (probably)" Those were not my words, so please be careful to be accurate when you are quoting another poster.

My response to the other poster's reflection was: "Shouldn't be, but we all know the judges ... Big surprise on Chan's marks, NO! Stop apologizing Pchid."

I responded in the heat of the moment, and I was saying "stop apologizing," because Chan was in the kiss 'n cry shrugging to the fans as if in apology for his mistakes, which still garnered him high marks. There were two other skaters still to skate, but Chan's scores were IMO almost like a beat down. Anyway, I didn't say that Chan's scores would "probably be enough." Those were the other poster's words. I responded that they "shouldn't be..." Definitely Dai and Javi had a chance, but they were also looking at a huge mountain to climb. They both needed to be perfect. (JMHO)

Now, you might wish to go back to page 7 and read the posts accurately. There was nothing fair or unfair about those statements from me or the other poster. We were expressing our opinions of what we saw occurring in real time.