Changing Ice Dance Rules & Marina Anissina

[KKonas]

"By far the best in this area"? Seriously? There is no way that D&W and the Shibs have better spins than V&M. And D&W may twizzle faster, but they're rarely in unison and don't hit good positions while they're twizzling. I would also argue that the Shibs don't hit good positions with their legs while twizzling (although at least Maia holds her arms better than Meryl). Honestly, your USA/D&W/Shibs bias shows no bounds.

Oops! I forgot. We all have to bow at the V/M altar. Only they do everything perfectly When you twizzle slower you can have greater control - a fact. Sorry.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think that D/W's spins ARE the best in the world, actually. KKonas might be biased, but in this case, I think he's right.

 

[dorispulaski]

?

The judges have judged D&W's spins as better than V&M's the last two seasons:


2011 worlds FD
D&W 6.36 SP4
V&M 6.00 CoSP4

2010 worlds FD
D&W CoSp4 6.10
V&M CoSp4 5.90

2010 Olympics FD
D&W CoSp4 6.10
V&M CoSp4 5.80

Shibs were not as good as either team.

Twizzles, sometimes D&W are better, sometimes V&M are better. The Shibs are precise, but don't get the ice coverage of the other 2 teams.

2011 worlds FD
D&W STw4 7.50
V&M STw4 7.36
Shibs STw4 7.00

2010 worlds FD
D&W STw4 6.50
V&M STw3 5.30

2010 Olympics FD
V&M STw4 7.00
D&W STw4 6.90

 

[backoutsideedge]

Oops! I forgot. We all have to bow at the V/M altar. Only they do everything perfectly When you twizzle slower you can have greater control - a fact. Sorry.

V&M do not twizzle that much slower than D&W. And when you twizzle with perfectly matching arms and free-leg positions, THAT is difficult. As I said, rarely are D&W in perfect unison in their twizzles like V&M are.

But I stand by my statement about your DW/Shib/US bias and agenda.

 

[mskater93]

You'd be wrong on the spin part with regard to D/W if you look at Doris's post above you, however. Just sayin'

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Well, we could also mention the GPF from 2009 (part of the 09/10 season) and mention that V/M beat D/W there (5.8 vs 5.4). Then we could point out that D/W still beat V/M on GOE anyway (1.1 for V/M, 1.4 for D/W) to reaffirm Doris' initial statement anyway.

 

[Apple Pi]

And when you twizzle with perfectly matching arms and free-leg positions, THAT is difficult.

Which is what D/W do, their positions always match in twizzles. This is by far the most criticism of D/W I've ever heard.

D/W are only out of a unison when one of them makes a mistake. It's exactly the same with V/M, where Scott will be tenuously falling out of the 2nd twizzle every so often.

 

[dorispulaski]

FWIW, in these days of 3 twizzles, the one to keep an eye on for mistakes is still the second twizzle set. Most teams start in the direction that is easy for them, whether they are doing 2 or 3 twizzles. It's even more important to do that for 3 twizzles, because the 3rd twizzle is then in thelarly
easy direction for them.

This is particularly noticeable in teams who are now doing 3 twizzles but have some problems with the reverse twizzle-it has gotten as short as possible to get level 4, so you'll have a long twizzle, 3 or 4 twizzle depending on whether they are doing them all on one foot, and then another longer set.

 

[Apple Pi]

FWIW, in these days of 3 twizzles, the one to keep an eye on for mistakes is still the second twizzle set. Most teams start in the direction that is easy for them, whether they are doing 2 or 3 twizzles. It's even more important to do that for 3 twizzles, because the 3rd twizzle is then in thelarly
easy direction for them.

This is particularly noticeable in teams who are now doing 3 twizzles but have some problems with the reverse twizzle-it has gotten as short as possible to get level 4, so you'll have a long twizzle, 3 or 4 twizzle depending on whether they are doing them all on one foot, and then another longer set.

I remember Ben Agosto had trouble with twizzles in a certain direction (I think it was the counter-clockwise ones) their last year. I wonder if it's the same for Scott too.

Doris, why do you think D/W don't do 3 sets of twizzles? I thought that was what they'd do when the rule change first came about last season. The three sets of twizzles are a real audience pleaser.

 

[Jasper]

New Era in Ice Dance vs. Old

Ice dance has come a long way. The level that V/M and D/W have achieved over the last several years (IMO, since 2007) and continue to achieve is breathtaking and incredible from the perspectives of both athleticism and performance. Their quality is well above and beyond what previous couples have been able to achieve in ice dance.

Yet, as much as I love and appreciate them and how they have risen the level of the sport, does anyone else feel nostalgia for the previous era of the late 90s and 2000s? Granted, the teams of those years did not have the consistent excellence of V/M or D/W and the judging back then was extremely suspect and troublesome, but there was a variety and dynamism to that field that we lack now. Today's programs are starting to look the same. More importantly, today's lifts are starting to look exactly the same. But think back: Anissina/Peizerat, Bourne/Kratz, Denkova/Staviski, Drobiazko/Vanagas, Delobel/Schoenfelder, Dubreuil/Lauzon, Grushina/Goncharov, even the overrated teams of Navka/Kostamarov, Belbin/Agosto, and Fusar-Poli/Margaglio. That was a strong field! Each one looked so different and had its own vibe, skills, energy. The creative lifts of Del/Scho and D/L, the creative choreography of Den/Stav, etc. are surely missed. Is there any way ice dance can go back to having such a strong field with genuine variety? V/M and D/W are probably the best we have ever seen and are able to combine mind-blowing athleticism with true dancing skills - always moving as a couple - but I worry the programs of the future will continue to look similar and not stand out season-to-season.

 

[Jasper]

I see this has been a recent discussion...

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35347-Changing-Ice-Dance-Rules-amp-Marina-Anissina

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=80893

 

[dorispulaski]

Jasper, that's why I merged the two threads.

 

[dorispulaski]

New Era in Ice Dance vs. Old



Ice dance has come a long way. The level that V/M and D/W have achieved over the last several years (IMO, since 2007) and continue to achieve is breathtaking and incredible from the perspectives of both athleticism and performance. Their quality is well above and beyond what previous couples have been able to achieve in ice dance.

Yet, as much as I love and appreciate them and how they have risen the level of the sport, does anyone else feel nostalgia for the previous era of the late 90s and 2000s? Granted, the teams of those years did not have the consistent excellence of V/M or D/W and the judging back then was extremely suspect and troublesome, but there was a variety and dynamism to that field that we lack now. Today's programs are starting to look the same. More importantly, today's lifts are starting to look exactly the same. But think back: Anissina/Peizerat, Bourne/Kratz, Denkova/Staviski, Drobiazko/Vanagas, Delobel/Schoenfelder, Dubreuil/Lauzon, Grushina/Goncharov, even the overrated teams of Navka/Kostamarov, Belbin/Agosto, and Fusar-Poli/Margaglio. That was a strong field! Each one looked so different and had its own vibe, skills, energy. The creative lifts of Del/Scho and D/L, the creative choreography of Den/Stav, etc. are surely missed. Is there any way ice dance can go back to having such a strong field with genuine variety? V/M and D/W are probably the best we have ever seen and are able to combine mind-blowing athleticism with true dancing skills - always moving as a couple - but I worry the programs of the future will continue to look similar and not stand out season-to-season.

Jasper, The rules change, about 30 pages worth, every year-and each time the rules change, there is a noticeable change in the dancing.

This year the word has gone out that programs are to be "dancy"

The last time this happened was in the 1994 to 1997 era, and it created some, IMO, not terribley appealing dances.

I notice you are particularly concerned with the sameness of lifts, and that concern has me scratching my head a bit, because the top teams are bringing new lifts every year. Even when a lift is old, there is a change that distinguishes it from the previous year's lift. The one kind of lift that is less frequent is "girl lifts guy" lifts, and there are even 2 of those this year.

If anything, there is more variety now than before.

 

[cassiem]

For me, ice dancing is becoming more and more boring because it's becoming increasingly about conformity. I think the standardization of the discipline, the introduction of pointless elements like dance spins and twizzles (which only interrupt the flow of a dance), is sucking the soul out of ice dancing. I don't think the favoritism of "uplifting" music is a smart idea either. I personally feel emotionally disconnected from most of these uplifting dances complete with well-rehearsed plastered-on smiles. Yet the PCS scores keep getting higher and higher. D/W at Cup of Russia: 9.64, 9.57, 9.86, 9.82, 9.79! Wow! Apparently we're supposed to believe this is one of the greatest free dances of all time! Sorry, I'm not fooled. Nice technical exercises but I won't feel compelled to rewatch it after this season. Why is the ISU against very dramatic dances? What is wrong with diversity? So You Think You Can Dance isn't afraid of depressing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_48OKZqYzHM&feature=related

Ice dancing wants to reach a broader audience but encouraging conservatism and conformity isn't the way to do it.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Just so we're clear, it's not favouritism. It's in the rules - there's a penalty if the music is not of "uplifting effect."

I disagree that dance spins and twizzles suck the soul out of dance.

I agree that D/W FD isn't one of the best free dances of all time. It's not even their best FD, imo.

 

[jcoates]

Also, this meme that dance spins and twizzles are some sort of new addition to ice dance under the current rules needs to be dropped. Both elements have been a non-standardized part of ice dance for decades. They were simply not mandated before, just as full step sequences were not prescibed until after 1998. Now it can certainly be argued that, like any other technical elements under COP, they are overdone in their length and complexity. But to suggest that they are something dreamed up by the COP is simply not the case.

Examples:
Kllimova/Ponomarenko 1992 has twizzles (though less revolutions), both circular and straight line steps and of course daring and inventive lifts. In fact many of their free dances had twizzles just not as many revolutions as now and not always two sets of them. They were woven more seamlessly into the choreography.

Bolero 1984 had a couple of minor dance spins.

Towler and Ford included one rather explicitly in their FD in 1969.

 

[dorispulaski]

Part of the reason that there are twizzles in dance is because they were mandated in the 6.0 era-in a few of the CD's. And in the Anissina era, it was annoying that a lot of the couples didn't do them well, either hopping the turns, or doing 3 turns instead of twizzles. You will note that there is a RFITw and RBOTw and a LBOTw in the Golden Waltz.

http://www.ice-dance.com/images/stories/pdf/compulsory/GoldenWaltz.pdf

It was this inability, as much as anything that put the required twizzles in dance COP.

People did dance spins, as jcoates noted, and I don't know why they specifically were included in COP, except that they are certainly an element that some teams have trouble with.

If you are creating a scoring system, you want to include stuff that the best teams can do and the worst teams can't; that's how you tell them apart.

 

[gmyers]

like any other technical elements under COP, they are overdone in their length and complexity

This is most defnitely the problem. To me it afflicts ice dance the most.