Japanese Nationals - Men

[demarinis5]

Do you disagree with my statement? Because he really still sold that program. The errors didn't really interrupt the flow (as it might have with a lesser skater).

No, I totally agree with your statement. I used Touché as an acknowledgment to your statement.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Mirunna, great question. I'm very curious about jump GOES in this case, because I don't think Kozuka would've earned a heck of a lot there. I also wonder about the second 3A. Because Kozuka DID add on a 2T after the fall, it should have been credited as a 3A+combo, which means no base value loss (but no credit for the 2T). I wonder if he was hit with the sequence factor (0.8?). That and slightly lower PCS then he should've had probably explains the loss, imo.

 

[Nadine]

I'm up early to do last minute wrapping, bake cookies, and check the results, lol.

That said, I'm torn between my feelings, after having watched the top 3 and looking at the results. On one hand I'm happy for Daisuke that he won Nationals for the 5th time, but sad that he won with so many falls. I'm sure even he, being the warrior that he is, isn't pleased with how he skated.

This reminds me in every way how I felt when Sasha Cohen won the 2006 Olympic Silver Medal with two falls (and, yes, I consider both falls). I remember crying seeing how beautiful & emotional her FS was (as God is my witness to this day she's the only one I've ever watched & will ever watch more than once at that Olympics). She was Juliet. Anyhow, my first thought after the first fall was gold is gone, but maybe she can hang on for a bronze medal, depending on how everybody else skates. But after the second fall I knew she was off the podium, and was heartbroken for her. Then my complete & utter S-H-O-C-K when she won silver! I remember thinking that's not possible, then being OVERJOYED/ELATED that she had won silver! But to this day, I've always been uncomfortable with her winning silver with two falls. Don't get me wrong, I'm sincerely happy for her that she won silver, but deep down inside where truth resides, there's doubt. For the integrity of the sport, I think COP needs to be revised when it comes to falls. Jmho.

This is only Nationals though, so I don't see a big uproar, after all I know plenty of US Nationals that have been questionable as well throughout the decades, so I understand. But the Olympics should be a whole other ballgame, where the whole world is watching and integrity should be upheld imho. And on that score I would have to say figure skating gets an A from me when it comes the the Olympic Gold Medalist in singles. I cannot think of *one* Olympic Champion in Mens or Ladies singles skating that has won with a fall, as it should be. For this I thank the skategods first & foremost, then the judges.

Now back to the competition at hand, Congrats to all three medalists. Kozuka was wonderful except for the fall on the 3A, Daisuke courageous as always (like a lion!), and the young Hanyu reminded me of Zhenya of a decade ago except in my eye Hanyu is a doe whereas Evgeni is a tiger. He just needs to work on his speed & stamina near the end, the last triple took away from an otherwise phenomenal performance. And let him know that Tonya Harding also had a horrible asthman condition, but that didn't prevent her from skating full out through beginning to end. Here's hoping as he grows into a man's body, his speed & stamina will as well, because he has all the goods to be thee face of Japanese male skating after 2014. Jmho.


NOW ONTO THE LADIES!!!!

 

[jettasian]

It's great to see someone fell 3 times and still won. I guess Chan's not the only one which many people like to believe so.

 

[chloepoco]

I know! How dare Chan's name shows up in this Japanese love-fest thread!!! I guess Dai love-fest should not show up at Canadian National threads at all then?

This is not the Japanese love-fest thread; this is the Japanese Nationals thread.

 

[DianaSelene]

It's great to see someone fell 3 times and still won. I guess Chan's not the only one which many people like to believe so.

Yes, except this is a national competition where Takahashi won. At an international one, he would never win. There is only one skater who can do that at an international competition and win. You know who it is.

 

[FTnoona]

I am very happy for Yuzuru being able to make the podium. Wonder if he will be going to 4CC. The location may affect his performance, with his stamina already being not great. Kozuka was wonderful especially the beginning quad (beautiful). I really want to see Machida's FS. Does anyone have a link on youtube?

 

[genki]

Why is Kozuka always sooo uderscored? His skating is so smooth, the speed is amazing, his landings are like butter and has the best spins in this competition.

Agreed. I love Dai's skating so much, but in this Nationals, I thought the winner is Kozuka, with Dai close second. Kozuka's PCS especially should deserves the respect as much as Dai, and Chan, but it rarely happens. Was it lower than Gaginsky's at some point? Does not make any sense to me.

It does not show in TV too well but his SS is truly special. Light and smooth, it makes people believe that he levitates on the ice not even touching it.
He is called " skater's skater" but not " Judge's skater"?

I continue root for him as much as I can. Ganbare Koz.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Yes, except this is a national competition where Takahashi won. At an international one, he would never win. There is only one skater who can do that at an international competition and win. You know who it is.

Would you argue that the difference between Takahashi and Kozuka is such that Takahashi with a quad and two falls should beat Kozuka? That's what I'm having problems with.

 

[lavender]

Aww I wish Dai would have won with a better skate. He still didn't let the performance but still.

Tahahiko's skate gave me chills. Dai is my favorite of the men but I still love Taka.
They both have the best long programs of the season along with Jeremy.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Kozuka lost on PCS, big time - 5.40 in LP and, inexplicably, in the SP, 5.05 which is the LP equivalent of 10.10 points!

I find Kozuka has finally caught up with the music and expressed it beautifully from the first note. :thumbsup: Takahashi's best performances, quads notwithstanding, were at NHK. He energy waned badly in the SP this time and his LP performance was not as crisp as he was.

In both cases, Takahashi had a 4 fall advantage over Kozuka.

We need a How Can Kozuka Compete With Takahashi on PCS thread.

 

[DianaSelene]

Would you argue that the difference between Takahashi and Kozuka is such that Takahashi with a quad and two falls should beat Kozuka? That's what I'm having problems with.

No, absolutely. I wanted Kozuka to win and think he should have been first because in the end, he had two clean programs. The only mistake he made was one fall while Takahashi made too many mistakes. I was just answering jettasian when he/she said that Takahashi won with three falls. I don't think ANYONE should win a competition with three falls. I think that Takahashi with such a performance at an internatinoal competition would not win, while Chan would. And I am not a Chan-basher, I am only an observer. And from my observations, I can hypothesize that in the future Chan can win almost any competition with many mistakes.

 

[Mirunna]

Kozuka lost on PCS, big time - 5.40 in LP and, inexplicably, in the SP, 5.05 which is the LP equivalent of 10.10 points!

I find Kozuka has finally caught up with the music and expressed it beautifully from the first note. :thumbsup: Takahashi's best performances, quads notwithstanding, were at NHK. He energy waned badly in the SP this time and his LP performance was not as crisp as he was.

In both cases, Takahashi had a 4 fall advantage over Kozuka.

We need a How Can Kozuka Compete With Takahashi on PCS thread.

We need a more general thread,like what should Kozuka do to receive the PCS he deserves?(can't believe he and Yuzuru are only 2.5 points apart in PCS). His SS are top notch, his interpretation, transitions and choreography(at least in the LP) are excellent. He is an introvert skater who has a more subtle way to express the music, but this should not be a reason to under-score him. I can watch his circular step sequence all day. I don't know what are the judges looking for in his performance and where is the problem. At the end of last season I thought "finally they are rewording him properly" but this season his PCS went downhill

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

No, absolutely. I wanted Kozuka to win and think he should have been first because in the end, he had two clean programs. The only mistake he made was one fall while Takahashi made too many mistakes. I was just answering jettasian when he/she said that Takahashi won with three falls. I don't think ANYONE should win a competition with three falls. I think that Takahashi with such a performance at an internatinoal competition would not win, while Chan would. And I am not a Chan-basher, I am only an observer. And from my observations, I can hypothesize that in the future Chan can win almost any competition with many mistakes.

My argument is more about the difference in the two circumstances beyond the question national vs international competition.

We need a more general thread,like what should Kozuka do to receive the PCS he deserves?(can't believe he and Yuzuru are only 2.5 points apart in PCS). His SS are top notch, his interpretation, transitions and choreography(at least in the LP) are excellent. He is an introvert skater who has a more subtle way to express the music, but this should not be a reason to under-score him. I can watch his circular step sequence all day. I don't know what are the judges looking for in his performance and where is the problem. At the end of last season I thought "finally they are rewording him properly" but this season his PCS went downhill

Yeah, I don't get it. Where are the protocols?

 

[Mirunna]

Someone on the ladies thread posted that the protocols are not out yet.

 

[wallylutz]

Yes, except this is a national competition where Takahashi won. At an international one, he would never win. There is only one skater who can do that at an international competition and win. You know who it is.

That's just not true. Unless you consider Kozuka and Hanyu not to be up to international standard. Sometimes, a national competition can be more competitive than an international competition. For the All Japan Championship in Men, that is most definitely the case vs. many of the international events like Nebelhorn Trophy, a well known international event, but less competitive.

The point is national or international categorization is quite irrelevant, it's the skaters who are in it that determine the competitiveness level. Considering this event has the reigning World Silver Medalist and another person who qualified for GPF through winning a GP event, I see no difference between the competitiveness level of this competition vs. any of the GP event this year. Maybe you can show us which GP event was in fact harder than the All Japan Men competition? I am convinced you can't, therefore, your argument is without merit.

 

[Mirunna]

I think DianaSelene was referring that at a national competition there are national judges and they are more generous usually than the international ones. I don't think that under an international panel of judges Dai would have scored 5 points more on PCS than Kozuka(for example, at the GPF, in the SP , the mistakes he made affected his PCS a lot.) The international judges award Daisuke with great scores but when he is on. But when he makes mistakes, he is penalized, like he was in Skate Canada.

 

[DianaSelene]

I think DianaSelene was referring that at a national competition there are national judges and they are more generous usually than the international ones. I don't think that under an international panel of judges Dai would have scored 5 points more on PCS than Kozuka(for example, at the GPF, in the SP , the mistakes he made affected his PCS a lot.) The international judges award Daisuke with great scores but when he is on. But when he makes mistakes, he is penalized, like he was in Skate Canada.

Thank you, Mirunna. That's what I meant. This has nothing to do with the fact that other competitors are Kozuka and Hanyu and whether they are world class figure skaters. But don't figure skaters at nationals get much higher scores than they would at an international competition? Am I wrong? Does my argument have no merit? Yes, it happens. I am not giving an exact competition where Takahashi would or would not win at an international competition. But as in Skate Canada, he would not be first.

 

[wallylutz]

I think DianaSelene was referring that at a national competition there are national judges and they are more generous usually than the international ones. I don't think that under an international panel of judges Dai would have scored 5 points more on PCS than Kozuka(for example, at the GPF, in the SP , the mistakes he made affected his PCS a lot.) The international judges award Daisuke with great scores but when he is on. But when he makes mistakes, he is penalized, like he was in Skate Canada.

But to accept such argument, we would have to subscribe to a belief that Japanese national judges are biased in favor of Takahashi against his competitors. But why should they? Kozuka is in fact the higher ranked skater. So if what you say is true, it's not because the competition is national or international, it's because the judges here are not being fair to Kozuka hence Takahashi can win. And you think this can't happen in an international event?

 

[wallylutz]

But don't figure skaters at nationals get much higher scores than they would at an international competition?

They often do but the last time I checked, Kozuka hasn't renounced his Japanese citizenship yet. :sheesh: How do you explain his lack of boost at his national event?

But as in Skate Canada, he would not be first.

Some of you keep citing Skate Canada [2011] without explaining why. But let me point out why such comparison is flawed:

- It was the 1st event the season, many skaters were still quite rough, including Takahashi
- Takahashi's mistakes there and here aren't the same and he certainly didn't fall 3 times in Mississauga
- That event was exceptionally well skated by two other skaters, had it being another competition, he could very well have won