Japanese Nationals - Men

[Becki]

Nonetheless, he still won with 3 falls, wasn't it? And so are you implying that the judges could give crazy marks or bias at national, but not international? Hum.

It's just funny to see that the same people (not you) went ballistic at Chan winning with falls seem to be very fine at Dai winning also with falls. That just showing

Actually, it's more like people weren't fine with Chan winning the LONG PROGRAM at the GPF with falls (or step outs rather)

 

[futureidol]

To you and all Chan ubers who can't stop bringing his idol in any thread. Dai didn't win with three falls, unilke Chan in JO, for example. He lost to Yuzuru and Hanyu in LP because he made more mistakes than those two, again unlike Chan in GPF LP, where he ridiculously won while Dai was almost flawless. In general Dai won mainly thanks to Yuzuru's bad skating n SP. I would rather see Hanyu as a J-champion, but he screwed up yesterday. I was very disappointed with Dai's FS, and that's his problem- he can take things light-minded and treat them not seriously. He thought he had a large difference after SP, and he got lucky. He won't have this luck in international events and he shouldn't rely on luck. Kozuka wasn't underscored. He's just simply boring and not inspiring. International judges also didn't appreciate his programs this season much. So, the result in general is fair I think.

^ THIS! Couldn't agree more.

 

[wallylutz]

I have to disagree on that. I thought the performance was OK, but not marvelous. That last fall on the flip brought the program to a complete halt. He may have sold it to the judges, but I, for one, am not buying. (IMHO he needs peppier music, for one thing -- this isn't a funeral.)

An obvious and valid point that not a single soul has the guts to acknowledge / discuss, even after it was pointed out. Because to acknowledge it is essentially the same as admitting the judges at this national event have likely deliberately ignored a major disruption in the program in order to hold up the eventual winner's PCS.

I am very disappointed once again with the judging system.

To be fair, it has very little to do with the system, the latter is working fine if you include the +SEQ penalty to my earlier calculations. These 3 errors likely caused him to lose about 20 points in TES in total, not exactly a small chunk. Had this being an international competition with close competitors and judged by a more impartial panel, there is very little chance that the same result can be replicated, not with a 20 points impact on TES alone, even without factoring what the impact should be for many of the PCS components. I think we are looking at a net impact close to - 25 points factoring both TES and PCS and that's enough to drop him outside of Top 6 in the World based on the competitiveness of last year's World Championship.

On another note, Kozuka really didn't help his own cause either. His jumps were cautious and not as solid / smooth as they normally were and his facial expression is as wooden as he can possibly be. For comparison, this is how Chen interpreted the same piece of music as Kozuka: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOl2Gzt2a_s&feature=related Look at the demonstrated emotions and movements, the difference is very obvious.

 

[doctor2014]

I don't think it's likely that he will be on the GP next year. Since Machida is Japan's #5 guy, I'm sure he'll get the spot at NHK again. I wish they hadn't cut so many spots out of the GP

It’s difficult to understand JSF’s decisions:

1) Why did Murakami and Machida each get a GP spot this season, while Mura got none? Mura was in 5th place at last year’s Japanese Nationals, while Machida finished 6th and Murakami finished 7th.

2) Why did all men and ladies get a PCS boost at the Japanese Nationals compared to their PCSs at international competitions? Why was Hanyu the only exception and why did he receive lower PCS at the Japanese Nationals than at GPF?

 

[Violet Bliss]

Re disruptive falls, Kozuka, in contrast, sprang from his 3A fall into a 1T jump. Now that's speedy fall recovery with presence of mind! I haven't been bothered by his oft sited "wooden expression" because I generally don't have my attention on facial expressions when a skater is moving fast on the ice. Nonehteless, I want to thank Wallylutz for bringing Lu Chen's skate. What a treat!

I too find the JN judging of Takahashi's programs questionable but it doesn't have the same effect as the US Nationals questionable judging which crowned a rather undeserving champion and sent the B team to Worlds with resulting reduced number of entries for the next year. With much stricter judging, Takahashi would still medal and represent Japan with honour.

 

[FTnoona]

I kinda wanted to see how Hanyu would fair at Colorado Springs given the higher altitude. Happy that Mura and Machida will compete at 4CC. Is the gala tomorrow?

 

[Mathman]

To be fair, it has very little to do with the system, the latter is working fine if you include the +SEQ penalty to my earlier calculations...

I think the type of skating that we are seeing these days does have a lot to do with the system.

Back in the day, did we ever see Yagudin or Plushenko fall three times in a single program?

Programs today are so busy that even world champions can't stay on their feet for four-and-a-half minutes. The ISU says, "What great skating! Look at all the points skaters like Chan and Takahashi are racking up!! Analyze the protocols!!!"

The emperor has no clothes. This is not great skating.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think the type of skating that we are seeing these days does have a lot to do with the system.

Back in the day, did we ever see Yagudin or Plushenko fall three times in a single program?

Programs today are so busy that even world champions can't stay on their feet for four-and-a-half minutes. The ISU says, "What great skating! Look at all the points skaters like Chan and Takahashi are racking up!! Analyze the protocols!!!"

The emperor has no clothes. This is not great skating.

When was the last time a World Championship was won by someone who couldn't stay on their feet for the four and a half minutes? I checked back up to 2004 and haven't found a winner who fell yet.

 

[Mathman]

^ The reference was to current and immediate past world champions who fall a lot in various competitions like Grand Prix events and National championships.

I think the kind of skating promoted and demanded by the current judging system leads to a lot of falls, even by top skaters. Maybe especially by top skaters.

I do not think that the skating public will stay fooled forever when we say, "Look how deep his edge is, and oh! the excellence of his three-turns! Falls? Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain."

 

[wallylutz]

I think the type of skating that we are seeing these days does have a lot to do with the system.

Back in the day, did we ever see Yagudin or Plushenko fall three times in a single program?

That's because instead of getting the full rotations (on the jumps), they often chose to pop them instead. While this may seem like a lesser mistake to you and some observers who despise falling, from an athletic standpoint, those are worse errors than falling on fully rotated jumps. Aided by the fact that the 6.0 system wasn't a proportional / cumulative system, it made sense to pop as opposed to fall but that doesn't mean those skaters you mentioned didn't make errors - just different kind based on different philosophy of judging.

Programs today are so busy that even world champions can't stay on their feet for four-and-a-half minutes. The ISU says, "What great skating! Look at all the points skaters like Chan and Takahashi are racking up!! Analyze the protocols!!!"

That's not true at all. FS program in men actually have less elements these days than the time of 6.0 era where at least 4 spins were "recommended / required" (3 today) and however number of jumps they wanted to put in which was usually equal or greater than the number of jumping passes these days. They also had to do two step sequences. Men's SP also went down by 1 element vs. the time of Yagudin/Plushenko.

The emperor has no clothes. This is not great skating.

You make it sound as though the 6.0 system never produced questionable placements and results. A system is only going to be as robust as the humans using it. No scoring model is perfect and it is the humans who use them that determine whether they eventually succeed or not. CoP helps organizes the thoughts of the evaluators, thus is a plus vs. the previous system but it isn't shielded from manipulation.

 

[Mathman]

That's not true at all. FS program in men actually have less elements these days than the time of 6.0 era where at least 4 spins were "recommended / required" (3 today) and however number of jumps they wanted to put in which was usually equal or greater than the number of jumping passes these days. They also had to do two step sequences. Men's SP also went down by 1 element vs. the time of Yagudin/Plushenko.

Even so, I think the programs that we are seeing now are busier than the programs of the past.

You make it sound as though the 6.0 system never produced questionable placements and results.

I do not think that. That would be silly.

What I do think is that

(a) Fans, spectators and supports of figure skating will tire of paying to see ballyhooed champions falling all over the ice -- and then being rewarded by gold medals for doing so. And

(b) The ISU does not really care what fans, spectators and supporter of figure skating like or don't like. They know what is best for us.

 

[Violet Bliss]

^ The reference was to current and immediate past world champions who fall a lot in various competitions like Grand Prix events and National championships.

I think the kind of skating promoted and demanded by the current judging system leads to a lot of falls, even by top skaters. Maybe especially by top skaters.

I do not think that the skating public will stay fooled forever when we say, "Look how deep his edge is, and oh! the excellence of his there-turns! Falls? Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain."

Who are the "skating public" and how are they fooled?

We have skaters who push or get pushed hard, raising the bar for the next ones. Early season falls create buzz and heated debates, IOW, interest, among fans, raising the expectation level as the season progresses, culminating in the World Championships with fans hoping with bated breath for perfection from their favorites or chanting "Fall! Fall! Fall!" against the hated one. If an unpopular skater keeps winning, fans start rooting for young upstarts to one day kick his butt for everbody he beats and their fans. Fans are more emotionally invested and involved.

All very exciting if you ask me.

Also, the current and the immediately past champions, along with others, are adversly affected by events, general and personal, before this season started so maybe they can be cut some slack? The Playoff season just got started.

 

[Mathman]

^ You are probably right.

My New Year's resolution is to stop being so grumpy. :yes:

Go Mao! Go Carolina! Go Alissa!

 

[Violet Bliss]

Actually at this point I'm more interested in seeing the skaters' progress than their scores. The top skaters are doing very challenging programs, each with their own nemeses, old or new, to overcome. Most of the falls are not indicative of lack of technical skills but because a skater can't take care of every aspect of the programs right now, mostly mentally, but if they are making progress otherwise, it's very encouraging that they may soon put everything together, hopefully at the right time. What I see from the JN includes Kozuka now connecting to his music and Takahashi successfully landing a quad combo after being unable to land a solo quad for a long time. They are both real and dangerous contenders comes Worlds if the stars align. The current world champ, OTOH, has been competing in compromised conditions but he knows where he's really at and it will be exciting to see if he will soon introduce a new quad and execute his LP cleanly at the same time.

COP challenges, so the best will stumble on the road to success. I say bravo to their ambitions and determination to push to their limits. Worlds will see glorious performances from those who ultimately succeed in their pursuits.

From my perspective, it's very exciting.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Takahashi vows to atone for free skate meltdown

 

[jettasian]

To you and all Chan ubers who can't stop bringing his idol in any thread. Dai didn't win with three falls, unilke Chan in JO, for example. He lost to Yuzuru and Hanyu in LP because he made more mistakes than those two, again unlike Chan in GPF LP, where he ridiculously won while Dai was almost flawless. In general Dai won mainly thanks to Yuzuru's bad skating n SP. I would rather see Hanyu as a J-champion, but he screwed up yesterday. I was very disappointed with Dai's FS, and that's his problem- he can take things light-minded and treat them not seriously. He thought he had a large difference after SP, and he got lucky. He won't have this luck in international events and he shouldn't rely on luck. Kozuka wasn't underscored. He's just simply boring and not inspiring. International judges also didn't appreciate his programs this season much. So, the result in general is fair I think.

First of all, I don't think there's ANY rule that certain skater is not permitted to be mentioned in this thread or any thread. Chan and a few Japanese skaters are the top skaters in the world right now, and it's inevitable that the name may come up. It has nothing to do with ubers or haterz etc.

Second of all, figure skating is about a whole package skate, not counting a number of falls or errors.

Actually, it's more like people weren't fine with Chan winning the LONG PROGRAM at the GPF with falls (or step outs rather)

I think it's more like Dai lost to Chan that his fans had problem.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The Protocols are up.

http://www.skatingjapan.jp/National/2011-2012/fs_e/national/index.htm

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Okay, question time:

At US Nationals 2011, Ryan Bradley made a mess of both is quads. Now, on his second quad, he made the mess, but was still able to attach a double toe. Consequently, the quad was called a 4T+Combo - he got credit for doing a combo (hence it didn't affect base value) but not for the 2T. Here, Kozuka's second triple axel had a fall, but he got up and added a single toe to it. However, his 3A was called a 3A+Sequence, and given the sequence factoring. Was this because of the fall? Because I assumed he'd be given the 3A+Combo mark, which would give him two more points (or so).

 

[Mathman]

Isn't it the rule that on a combo you have to go right up on the same edge that you landed the first jump on? So presumably if you fell in between that would take away the possibility of maintaining a continuous edge.

 

[Mathman]

Who are the "skating public"...

In discussions like this I usually think of the "skating public" or the "casual fans" as the people who pay the bills. These are the folks who spend $200 to take the family to see the NHK trophy contested and the folks who watch on television and buy the products advertised by the corporate sponsors. (My pantry is full of Smucker's jam and McCprmick spices.)

IMHO they deserve to see excellent displays of skills, lovely programs, and exciting competition. If instead they see a splat fest and a winner who fell more than anyone else, I think that such fans feel that they did not get their money's worth. Explanations like, "this is the beginning of the season, they'll get better," and "the guy who fell three times deserved to win because of PCSs" do not help.

But you (SkateFiguring) might be right. The fans we should be concerned about are fans like us. Fans who follow figure skating on the Internet, who praise and criticize our favorite skaters and their rivals, who do look at the progression of the season as a whole, and who like to debate the ins and outs of the scoring system. This is probably the future of the sport. (Unfortunately for the ISU, we don't give them any money in exchange for all this fun. )

(The reason that skaters seem to fall more often under CoP scoring than with 6.0 is) because instead of getting the full rotations (on the jumps), they often chose to pop them instead. While this may seem like a lesser mistake to you and some observers who despise falling, from an athletic standpoint, those are worse errors than falling on fully rotated jumps.

That's a good point. In the current judging system a fully rotated triple jump with a fall ends up with about the same numbers of points as a satisfactory double jump. Under 6.0 we don't know quite so precisely how much credit a skater lost for doubling an intended triple. But it was bad, since the emphasis was always on "how many triples she she do?" If you double-footed the landing, that didn't count as a "ratified" triple, although again we don't know how much the judges deducted from the score.

In either case, doubling a jump was/is quite evident as a serious error of omission to casual viewers as well as to ISU judges. And a complete pop looks just as bad as a fall.

I still think it would be more sports-like to give 0 points. Like in the sport of rodeo. If the cowboy falls off the horse, no matter how much riding skill he showed up to that point, and no matter how shiny his spurs, the announcer says, "Let's give that cowboy a big round of applause, 'cause that's all he is going to get for that ride."