Yuzuru Hanyu changes coach to Brian Orser

[Brenda]

Well then that's horrible. It seems an awful lot like blackmailing to me: "If you want us to keep helping you with your finances, you better find a big name coach, or ELSE." Like what the heck. That's not cool.

Well no, it's not like blackmail at all.

If JSF is really making Hanyu switch coaches in order to receive funding, then it's perfectly within their right to do so (if allowed by the federation's stipulations for funding), since they're GIVING him money. It's only extortion/blackmail if they're threatening to harm him/reveal harmful information unless he complies with their requests, which hardly seems the case here.

 

[Jaana]

Stupid move. Orser hasn't turned Cao, Phaneuf into gold.

Hmmm, maybe, just maybe some skaters are hopeless cases, who ever the coach might be...

 

[phaeljones]

I sense that a lot of us having been holding back on what really bothers us about this until the facts come out better. But here it goes anyway:

I hope this is not the case but consider this scenario: Think of yourself as a coach who takes a kid and does everything right, getting the best possible result, not just for a short while but over the long term, and not just on a local level but on a world level. Then, when your seventeen skater wins the bronze, he tells you that you are fired. He tells you he needs a better coach. But he tells you that he wants you to work with him still as a secondary coach while is he is back in Sendai. Effectively, he has told you, "You are fired."

If this is the scenario that has played out here, it really speaks badly about Yuzuru's character. There are those who will say it is nothing personal and the sport is only about winning. This is the nature of the sport and so what. To those people, I would reply that everything in life is personal and this coach got him results better than anyone else has achieved with any other skater. But more importantly: Nothing is more important in life than the values you live by.

If Yuzuru really cares about Abe and the facts are otherwise, he should clear the air. There may be reasons behind the scenes preventing him from doing so now, but when the opportunity arises he should. Why? Because he owes it to Abe.

Ambition is no excuse to kicking a good person in the teeth. Neither is being the greatest skater in the world. (Some here disagree with me, I know, but I am just trying to explain what really bothers me personally here.)

I really don't know what happened here. What I saw at the world's I thought was an incredibly great person on and off the ice. Unless I am missing something (and there may be something that has not been disclosed), what has happened with Abe afterward really begs the question about his real character. It may not affect what I think about his skating, but it will affect what I think about him as a person. I will hold my judgment and give him the benefit of a doubt until it comes out, but I really wonder what went on here.

 

[OS]

Hmmm, maybe, just maybe some skaters are hopeless cases, who ever the coach might be...

If so what is the point of going to coaches? Otherwise I can be a coach, it is your fault if you suck!
Besides, I doubt Cao is that stupid, she is going to Harvard you know

 

[OS]

I sense that a lot of us having been holding back on what really bothers us about this until the facts come out better. But here it goes anyway:

I hope this is not the case but consider this scenario: Think of yourself as a coach who takes a kid and does everything right, getting the best possible result, not just for a short while but over the long term, and not just on a local level but on a world level. Then, when your seventeen skater wins the bronze, he tells you that you are fired. He tells you he needs a better coach. But he tells you that he wants you to work with him still as a secondary coach while is he is back in Sendai. Effectively, he has told you, "You are fired."

If this is the scenario that has played out here, it really speaks badly about Yuzuru's character. There are those who will say it is nothing personal and the sport is only about winning. This is the nature of the sport and so what. To those people, I would reply that everything in life is personal and this coach got him results better than anyone else has achieved with any other skater. But more importantly: Nothing is more important in life than the values you live by.

If Yuzuru really cares about Abe and the facts are otherwise, he should clear the air. There may be reasons behind the scenes preventing him from doing so now, but when the opportunity arises he should. Why? Because he owes it to Abe.

Ambition is no excuse to kicking a good person in the teeth. Neither is being the greatest skater in the world. (Some here disagree with me, I know, but I am just trying to explain what really bothers me personally here.)

I really don't know what happened here. What I saw at the world's I thought was an incredibly great person on and off the ice. Unless I am missing something (and there may be something that has not been disclosed), what has happened with Abe afterward really begs the question about his real character. It may not affect what I think about his skating, but it will affect what I think about him as a person. I will hold my judgment and give him the benefit of a doubt until it comes out, but I really wonder what went on here.

Please calm down. I doubt VERY MUCH this decision comes from Hanyu alone but more likely the federations invested in him, the sport agents who benefit from his rise and break the deal. There are alot of interests beside his own is at stake here when we are talking about building a star, an Olympic medal and everything else with it etc.

He is just a 17 year old kid who probably don't know that much but skating, and just want to be obedient to everyone else around him very much in line with the typical Asian culture where the young are generally expect to obey the 'wisdom' of the elders, and to deny these 'valuable' advice would be very much frowned upon on especially as one as fresh as Hanyu. It takes a few years before they are toughen up, become more worldly like Dai and Miki were able to say no to JSF's micromanagement.

 

[MaiKatze]

I believe, yes he may be 17, but Yuzuru is made of different material than others. When I first saw him, I thought "Oh, what a cute young skater. So talented and the way he is honestly really happy when he skated good is adorable." But then I read interviews, listened to what he talked about. He is very mature and what really suprised me is his extreme self-confidence. I just cannot believe Yuzuru is forced into situations, he doesn't want personally. He is not the type of person to be pressured, imho. So this move to Brian Orser WITHOUT Nanami Abe as co-coach (like the situation with Morozov/Nagamitsu for Takahashi) I think, it was Yuzurus decision. If he really wanted to stay with her, who would've said no to him? For what reason? Well, really unless he, Abe or Orser will say anything about it we'll never know. I just think Yuzuru has a strong character and there might even be some arrogance within him. Which is not bad per se, but I definitely don't think he is an innocent kid who does what he's told. No way.

 

[phaeljones]

All the above comments make sense in their context.

I agree that Hanyu has the right to whatever coach he wants and whichever coach he deems most appropriate for himself. Whoever is responsible for the decision though, it could have been handled with a bit more sensitivity to Abe. I think that she was owned that much, by the federation and by Hanyu.

My impressions, correctly or incorrectly, are now tending toward those articulated by MaiKatze above. Nobody tells Hanyu what to do except Hanyu.

 

[Kelly]

What we see is only a news announcement. Why don't we choose to believe that Hanyu lets Abe know immediately about JFS's offering.
I think maybe Abe is very happy for Hanyu that he can have this opportunity to go abroad, and maybe she even encourages him to do so.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I think that Hanyu should move to Toronto and do all his training there. To do something in Toronto and something in Japan is not a good idea at all, way too distracting. A skater needs to concentrate fully on the training and not spend precious time to travelling from Canada to Japan, etc.

I agree. If you really want to change, change it whole heartedly without looking back. Then you'll have increased chance of being successful. Is there any examples of long distance traveling for coaches and successful?

 

[OS]

All the above comments make sense in their context.

I agree that Hanyu has the right to whatever coach he wants and whichever coach he deems most appropriate for himself. Whoever is responsible for the decision though, it could have been handled with a bit more sensitivity to Abe. I think that she was owned that much, by the federation and by Hanyu.

My impressions, correctly or incorrectly, are now tending toward those articulated by MaiKatze above. Nobody tells Hanyu what to do except Hanyu.

Don't get me wrong. Nobody forced Hanyu force into anything, but if anyone is to broke this deal with JSF, they would present to it in such a way that makes Hanyu/JSF think they came to the decision on their own when reality could be another matter.

When i analyse the whole situation, it seems everybody wins except Hanyu who have to travel across the world on 12 hour flight one way (24 hour return) just to get coaching? Athlete's bio rhythms are already sensitive matters that is why they prefer certain competition spots and will choose to give up certain competitions. 4 hour car journey already seems to impact Mirai's training and result in a huge way. Actually the reason not to stay with Abe as co-coach is likely to ensure he can't back out of Orser half way, and makes sense from sport brokering perspective. You want to ensure the deal go through.

JSF wins because Hanyu can get some world class cred, reputation and political pull from Canada next year, a key year to build reputation leading up to Sochi with the world championship take place in Canada next year. Guess what, exactly like Yuna Kim's path to Olympics gold where she won the 4CC in Vancouver the year before the Olympics. Hanyu can hope to win world championship in Ontario, Canada in 2013 [edited]

Sport agent get a nice 20% brokering fee and exclusivity to Hanyu for everything else in the future.

Orser get the best ready made student since Yuna Kim that doesn't require much work just manage the health situation, add polish and the team / environment set up, and play the media savvy game which Orser is exceptional at.

Hanyu? Poor lad, probably will go through what Tat and Mao did, half time here and there, lots of phone and video calls and probably miscommunication, while inadvertently taking a few steps back because of less supervision and management. Not ideal at all.

 

[johnny 80]

Don't get me wrong. Nobody forced Hanyu force into anything, but if anyone is to broke this deal with JSF, they would present to it in such a way that makes Hanyu/JSF think they came to the decision on their own when reality could be another matter.

When i analyse the whole situation, it seems everybody wins except Hanyu who have to travel across the world on 12 hour flight just to get coaching? Athlete's bio rhythms are already sensitive matters that is why they prefer certain competition spots and will choose to give up certain competitions. 4 hour car journey already seems to impact Mirai's training and result in a huge way. Actually the reason not to stay with Abe as co-coach is likely to ensure he can't back out of Orser half way, and makes sense from sport brokering perspective. You want to ensure the deal go through.

JSF wins because Hanyu can get some world class cred, reputation and political pull from Canada next year, a key year to build reputation leading up to Sochi. Guess what, exactly like Yuna Kim's path to Olympics gold.

Sport agent get a nice 20% brokering fee and exclusivity to Hanyu for everything else in the future.

Orser get the best ready made student since Yuna Kim that doesn't require much work just manage the health situation, add polish and the team / environment set up, and play the media savvy game which Orser is exceptional at.

Hanyu? Poor lad, probably will go through what Tat and Mao did, half time here and there, lots of phone and video calls, while inadvertently taking a few steps back because of less supervision and management. Not ideal at all.

You have to understand when Kim moved to Toronto, at that time Orser wasn't engaged in coaching job. he was still touring the shows around the world. He was famous as an athlete, but not as a coach.

If Kim wanted to seek famous coaches in 2006, he never would be her choice. She would choose Tarasova,Morozov, Carrol,Nicks, Arutunian, Mishin, etc.

For example, if Stoyko begins coaching job today, Will you trust him as a coach? I don't think so, he is a famous skater, but doesn't prove himself as a coach yet.

Kim chose David Wilson at first, then chose the coach at the same rink. very unique way to select the coach. And as you know, Although David is a capable guy, he wasn't that famous then as Lori,Tarasova, Morozov...
I liked Rochette's LP in Torino, though.

 

[phaeljones]

What we see is only a news announcement. Why don't we choose to believe that Hanyu lets Abe know immediately about JFS's offering.
I think maybe Abe is very happy for Hanyu that he can have this opportunity to go abroad, and maybe she even encourages him to do so.

Totally possible. Maybe even Abe pushed him to make the move to Orser. I hope that was the case. But given the rather terse statement, it looks like Hanyu basically pulled the trigger without blinking. Maybe further news stories and statements will clear up what happened, if Hanyu so cares to clear up any misunderstanding (if there is any).

I agree with os168 about whether this can be to Hanyu's advantage.

 

[OS]

You have to understand when Kim moved to Toronto, at that time Orser wasn't engaged in coaching job. he was still touring the shows around the world. He was famous as an athlete, but not as a coach.

If Kim wanted to seek famous coaches in 2006, he never would be her choice. She would choose Tarasova,Morozov, Carrol,Nicks, Arutunian, Mishin, etc.

For example, if Stoyko begins coaching job today, Will you trust him as a coach? I don't think so, he is a famous skater, but doesn't prove himself as a coach yet.

Kim chose David Wilson at first, then chose the coach at the same rink. very unique way to select the coach. And as you know, Although David is a capable guy, he wasn't that famous then as Lori,Tarasova, Morozov...
I liked Rochette's LP in Torino, though.

Doh! You are right! I had a brain freeze! I thought 2009 took place in North America in Canada, but it was the US right? I got confused with 4CC in Vancouver where she won, I edited the post. I am refering the to the 2009 season where Yuna solidify her reputation to become a world champion before the Olympics in Canada. Strategically Hanyu would benefit from something like this, so they are laying the road ahead. Japan and Russia are already aligned anyway.

Yuna is just special what can i say. The only one who didn't do the conventional safe route to success. She made a world class coach, not the other way round.

 

[doctor2014]

Remember Daisuke went to Morozov, and iam sure learned something from him and returned to his coach Utako Nagamitsu.

No, Nagamitsu never left Daisuke, even when Daisuke was trained by Morozov. JSF told Daisuke and Nagamitsu that Daisuke had to be trained by Morozov because she did not have enough experience and ability to help Daisuke improve. Daisuke could not refuse. He had to obey JSF and splitted his time between Japan and New Jersey.

But Nagamitsu said she couldn’t leave Dai because he wouldn’t adjust well in a foreign environment/with a foreign coach. Even though Nagamitsu knew she was not a very experienced and capable coach, she would still accompany Dai to train abroad and she became an assistant coach to the big-name foreign coach.

Then when Nagamitsu saw Dai had problem with the quad, she felt her work alone would not be enough to help Dai successfully land his quad and so she enlisted the support of Honda to help Dai with the quad.

Nagamitsu is a lady with real class. She is not the best coach in the world (her work with her other student Tanaka can hardly be called great). But when she met Daisuke, she knew that she has found a rare gem and has cherished and protected it to the best of her ability through all those years. She has recognized her defects, and in order for Dai to improve she has been willing to share him with other coaches who would offer greater help to him in certain aspects. After all the highs and lows, after Morozov left, Nagamitsu is still there, by Daisuke’s side… and finally with JSF’s recognition as the primary coach of Japan’s #1 skater.

Everyone knows that the JSF would intervene and choose a big-name coach for all its elite skaters sooner or later. For the past ten years or so, the JSF has never given unknown Japanese coaches the chance to be the primary coach of its elite skaters—it did not give the chance to Nagamitsu, so I was not surprised at all that it would not give a chance to Nanami Abe, who’s even more inexperienced than Nagamitsu.

I’ve always thought that Abe would become another Nagamitsu and take care of Hanyu just like how Nagamitsu took care of Daisuke, since Abe seemed to be fond of Hanyu at the K&C. But different people have different ways. I was surprised that Abe left Hanyu, but you should not expect every coach to be as supportive as Nagamitsu, who even sacrificed her family time to take care of Daisuke. Abe has her own family and her own career. I understand her choice and wish her good luck. Maybe she can find another talented skater like Hanyu. Then I hope she doesn’t leave that skater because I’m sure that the JSF will make her and her student face the same tough decision again.

I would definitely not be surprised if this were true. IIRC, the JSF played a big role in making Shizuka leave Richard Callaghan, and both Miki and Daisuke have spoken about how they have been heavily pressured to change their coaching teams (the JSF wanted Miki to leave Morozov, and Daisuke to find a bigger-name coach than Utako Nagamitsu).

Unfortunately the JSF often makes wrong match ups. Last season when JSF chose Bestemianova and Bobrin for Hanyu, I thought that the JSF was finally smart for once. B & B assisted in choreographing Hanyu’s wonderful programs, enabled him to get level 4 on step sequences which he never got before, and helped with his 4T and 4S. But now this switch to Orser and traveling back and forth between Sendai and Toronto are just crazy!

I wish the JSF would have more faith in unknown local coaches, but the JSF is such a bureaucratic agency that you should not expect too much from it. :scowl:

 

[Serious Business]

So now we've moved onto the Blame Yuzuru phase of this discussion. Oh the drama! Unless we have actual evidence to the contrary, can we please just go with what is apparent here?

The JSF has a long documented history of making arbitrary and sometimes, counter-intuitive coaching decisions for top level skaters. They are on record as forcing older skaters with bigger medals into these decisions.

Yuzuru Hanyu is a minor under Japanese law. This coaching change had to have been in the works for a while, before he won World bronze. Now I know Yuzuru is very talented, special and unique, but how would a 17 year old kid with no major senior wins find the gumption and clout to defy the well established traditions of the institution that governs his calling in life?

Or maybe, some of you insist, this is actually something Yuzuru initiated himself. Again, we have no evidence of this. We do have the skating director of the JSF on record as saying, rather paternalistically, that this change is "necessary" to "raise the level of Yuzuru's skating". This decision fits entirely with the m.o. of the JSF. On the other hand, how likely is it that a 17 year old kid would want to ditch everything he knows and everything that's worked for him so far and everybody he loves to move halfway across the world to work with strangers? It might be likelier if Yuzuru was having a bad season. Maybe there's some internal drama going on that we aren't privy to. But turn up evidence of that and we'll talk.

But, but, why doesn't Yuzuru have Nanami move halfway across the world with him, too? Because she has family, friends, other students and clients in Japan!

Now all this makes it sound like going to Orser is the Worst Thing Ever. But really, it's not. Seemingly abrupt coaching changes and young skaters having to move to an entirely new country to train are nothing new in our beloved sport. Lots of skaters and coaches have survived this with their careers and feelings intact. So unless we get any indication that things did not go well, let's not be so hasty to assign blame to the skaters and coaches involved. Feel free to blame the JSF, though! I do agree with most in saying that this reeks of the old changing horses midstream error, especially when they were galloping along so well. And yeah, if it were up to me, Yuzuru would stay with Nanami in Japan. But I don't think this change is entirely bad with no positives whatsoever. I do think there's a good chance that everything will work out, and I look forward to seeing it!

 

[Jaana]

If so what is the point of going to coaches? Otherwise I can be a coach, it is your fault if you suck!
Besides, I doubt Cao is that stupid, she is going to Harvard you know

Talented skaters may benefit from changing the coach (Ilia Kulik and Alexei Yagudin to Tarasova, Yu-Na Kim to Orser, Arakawa to Morizov, etc.). Being talented as a skater or going to Harvard are not equal, two very different matters.

 

[Skater Boy]

This doesn't bode well for Chan coming to Orser. Why Canada doesn't use their own I am not sure - Brian should coach Patrick or Kevin. Patrick is in huge trouble without a technical coach.

 

[Bluebonnet]

This doesn't bode well for Chan coming to Orser. Why Canada doesn't use their own I am not sure - Brian should coach Patrick or Kevin. Patrick is in huge trouble without a technical coach.

Don't worry. Patrick will not go to Orser anyways whether Orser accepted another top skater or not. But I share your concerns about Patrick without a technical coach.

 

[blue dog]

Nagamitsu is a lady with real class. She is not the best coach in the world (her work with her other student Tanaka can hardly be called great). But when she met Daisuke, she knew that she has found a rare gem and has cherished and protected it to the best of her ability through all those years. She has recognized her defects, and in order for Dai to improve she has been willing to share him with other coaches who would offer greater help to him in certain aspects. After all the highs and downs, after Morozov left, Nagamitsu is still there, by Daisuke’s side… and finally with JSF’s recognition as the primary coach of Japan’s #1 skater.

She sounds like Linda Leaver.

I am not too concerned with Patrick not having a technical coach. I think what Patrick will do now is find a coach to consult with from time to time. He may even consult with Orser himself when he goes to Toronto, which wouldn't get in the way of Orser training Hanyu. In fact, isn't that how Brian coaches? He doesn't have set hours dedicated to one skater, but they all skate together during the sessions, and if Brian sees someone needing work on something, he'd set that person aside, and have them work on what they need to work on (not unlike how the top ballet companies and gymnastics academies work).

 

[elky12]

What we see is only a news announcement. Why don't we choose to believe that Hanyu lets Abe know immediately about JFS's offering.
I think maybe Abe is very happy for Hanyu that he can have this opportunity to go abroad, and maybe she even encourages him to do so.

I totally agree. The news articles simply mentioned that Abe and Hanyu ended their coach-athlete relationship harmoniously, and his new coach is Orser as Hanyu wants to get trained abroad to enhance his skating skills. I agree with what Serious Business wrote. I think that this move has been planned by all parties involved for a while. I heard that Hanyu will have a press conference about this in early May, whether or not he will say everything.