Like Gracie said no one is clean this early in the season. She doesn't seem to dwell on her mistakes. Remember even though Agnes is only about a year older then Gracie she's got a lot more experience. But i think Gracie will pass her up soon. Her score if clean would had be been huge.
Salt Lake City Senior B (Int'l Figure Skating Classic)
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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Like Gracie said no one is clean this early in the season. She doesn't seem to dwell on her mistakes. Remember even though Agnes is only about a year older then Gracie she's got a lot more experience. But i think Gracie will pass her up soon. Her score if clean would had be been huge.
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- Nov 3, 2006
skaterboy..This is not so much an answer to your questions re: ice dance , as adding my voice to your queries .. With so much going on at once, and SLC having restricted viewing..we could be waiting a while for much feedback.
I couldn't see any of this , but just looking at the protocols, I feel simultaneously a bit encouraged and a bit duious about the respective results for G/P and P/I...
Encouraged, because the margin between them is small , and within reasonable possibility of a flip on any given day . ( This is sort of what I would have expected at last year's Canadians. However ... depressingly , last year's Canadians was not a fair competition , due to the splitting of the events for TV viewing purposes and, in ice dance , the truly shameful overmarking of G/P .) ..
Dubious , because the PCS handed out in the SD at SLC seems somewhat incongruous to me ..
In the FD , Paul had a stumble , which won't always be the case... OTOH, P/I had mediocre levels on their footwork , which I imagine they're entirely capable of improving , along with a general strengthening of their programs , presentation and technique throughout the season.
Looking at the international picture, barring injuries and other disasters, and assuming everyone , not just G/P, has improved ,to some degree.. I don't see how G/P could surprise, or pass any of the top 10 couples from last year , though the order of finish within that top 10 could be shuffled about.
And, of course we'd have to add a C/B not in meltdown mode, or possibly K/G-S into the mix as well .
I couldn't see any of this , but just looking at the protocols, I feel simultaneously a bit encouraged and a bit duious about the respective results for G/P and P/I...
Encouraged, because the margin between them is small , and within reasonable possibility of a flip on any given day . ( This is sort of what I would have expected at last year's Canadians. However ... depressingly , last year's Canadians was not a fair competition , due to the splitting of the events for TV viewing purposes and, in ice dance , the truly shameful overmarking of G/P .) ..
Dubious , because the PCS handed out in the SD at SLC seems somewhat incongruous to me ..
In the FD , Paul had a stumble , which won't always be the case... OTOH, P/I had mediocre levels on their footwork , which I imagine they're entirely capable of improving , along with a general strengthening of their programs , presentation and technique throughout the season.
Looking at the international picture, barring injuries and other disasters, and assuming everyone , not just G/P, has improved ,to some degree.. I don't see how G/P could surprise, or pass any of the top 10 couples from last year , though the order of finish within that top 10 could be shuffled about.
And, of course we'd have to add a C/B not in meltdown mode, or possibly K/G-S into the mix as well .
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- Mar 22, 2004
MY guess is that the marks were high across the board at SLC, luckily for those who were looking for a minimum score. In ice dance we were looking at a group that didn't make it to Worlds last year, and I think I am safe in assuming that none of them will be threatening the top ten, this year. The Canadian teams both need to work on their polkas and footwork, and I'm sure we'll see some improvement from both teams. We are not justified, IMO, in thinking there has been a huge improvement in P/I or a bad skate by G/P, I rather think the quirky judging at Canadians has been held up to the light of day.
Interesting how people see the same competition, in different ways . . . I thought Paul and Islam had improved markedly over last season, particularly in their lifts. However, also thought Gilles and Poirier clear winners in SLC -- more difficulty, more speed, greater dynamism, more innovation. Goes to show dance will always be somewhat subjective.
Also didn't think the tech panels or judges were overly generous, particularly in the singles' and pairs' events.
Also didn't think the tech panels or judges were overly generous, particularly in the singles' and pairs' events.
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- Mar 22, 2004
I wonder how the skating skills of G/P will be assessed by a judging panel with more European content. There is an obvious differnce in quality between the two partners, and I'm not certain every panel will judge them according to the stronger partner.
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- Nov 3, 2006
Yes, well ..one of my points was that I couldn't see the competition..So far, A.H. Black, who was there , has said on the competition thread that he/she thought the finish was justified ..which is fine... but I'd love to hear more , and more detailed opinions .I have seen both FDs at Thornhill, and just as programs , I'd have to say I much prefer the Camerlengo program to the L/R program ( for subtlety , nuance, diversity, and being clearly dance ). I definitely think G/P showed more strength, speed and power , but considerably less refinement. I didn't see much real innovation in their program , all the lifts and difficult poses seemed quite derivative of programs of the past . That is not to take anything away from their difficulty, or the strength required to execute them , but at the Thornhill outing ,at least , the program seemed a mad dash from one highlight to the next , with not much dancing in between.
The PCS in the SD is mystifying to me ..how one team can be given the edge in the tech score yet be given a lower mark for SS ( just one example) doesn't seem quite right to me .. especially when the team with the higher mark has such a discrepancy in their SS relative to one another..while the team with the lower mark are well matched in ability, and either one of them have greater overall skill than the weaker partner of the first team...
Anyway , I don't claim P/I should have won.. The closeness of the marks fits better with what my eyes tell me than has been the case in previous competitions. That's reassuring to me. I'd like to understand those PCS better, but realize this is the grey area in CoP.
Nebelhorn should be interesting, different , but challenging field .. and a different judging panel, perhaps more heavily weighted on the European side.
Random thoughts on the Classic
Dance
I liked Paul/Islam and I would have put them a bit closer to Gilles/Pourier. My friend, however would have put KRIENGKRAIRUT/GIULIETTI-SCHMITT above Paul/Islam. She also enjoyed Paul/Islam but thought they lacked a distinctive, memorable moment - at least in the free. I can see her point. Both Gilles/Pourier and KRIENGKRAIRUT/GIULIETTI-SCHMITT seem more dynamic. (sorry about they caps - I copied and pasted).
Pairs
I was happy for Vise/Baldwin. Their short program looked like they took the summer off. They redeemed themselves in the free. Not the most difficulty but it was smooth and without disrupting glitches. Her second throw was beautiful. I like Moore-Towers/Moscovitch and their free program was very good. She needs more life in her face. She doesn't need to smile, but there does need to be a better connection to her partner, the audience and the program itself. Right now the only expression seems to be when someone has programmed "facial expression" into the choreography. I always want to see something real.
Men
My favorite performance of the week was Christopher Caluza. From the first jump there was a feeling that this would be a good program. With the exception of a hand-down on the 2 axel, Christopher landed every jump with ease. It was lovely to watch and Christopher was thrilled - rightly so. I wonder if his 124.07 in the free is a personal best. The rest of the men were fine - they all have work to do and they all know it. I was impressed with Max's quads but the intangables need work.
Ladies
I thought Agnes' program had more impact than Gracie's. Gracie has nice big jumps (in this rink she was too close to the boards) and she has good flow but right now I think of her as another "lovely skater". Agnes has life in her face and in her program - more passion. I say this as not a particular fan of either skater. Some of the difference is a matter of style, but not all.
I had not noticed Agnes off the ice before. Her programs have always been strong, bold and sometimes almost "in your face" Off the ice she seems almost quiet, with soft curls to her hair, not at all like her persona on the ice. I wonder if there was a way she could include some of those curls and softness in her programs.
When I referred to speed earlier in the week, I really noticed the speed in the step sequences. Both skaters will need to work to make those sequences look sharp and quick. Right now they both look a bit labored.
Competition
The skaters seemed to have a good time. Max and Ross arrived at the Ladies free very sunburned after a round of golf. I thought the football game would be a big problem but it turned out to be a real attraction for the skaters. I think a couple of them even went to the game. Next year they might even try to cross-market a bit. All those tail-gaters could come in and watch some skating and the skating organizers could put up a booth out in the tail-gating lot. The parking was separated well so there wasn't much problem finding a space and it was fun having somewhere interesting to walk during ice-makes. The skating media was there in force. The local media is dragging it's heels - as usual.
Dance
I liked Paul/Islam and I would have put them a bit closer to Gilles/Pourier. My friend, however would have put KRIENGKRAIRUT/GIULIETTI-SCHMITT above Paul/Islam. She also enjoyed Paul/Islam but thought they lacked a distinctive, memorable moment - at least in the free. I can see her point. Both Gilles/Pourier and KRIENGKRAIRUT/GIULIETTI-SCHMITT seem more dynamic. (sorry about they caps - I copied and pasted).
Pairs
I was happy for Vise/Baldwin. Their short program looked like they took the summer off. They redeemed themselves in the free. Not the most difficulty but it was smooth and without disrupting glitches. Her second throw was beautiful. I like Moore-Towers/Moscovitch and their free program was very good. She needs more life in her face. She doesn't need to smile, but there does need to be a better connection to her partner, the audience and the program itself. Right now the only expression seems to be when someone has programmed "facial expression" into the choreography. I always want to see something real.
Men
My favorite performance of the week was Christopher Caluza. From the first jump there was a feeling that this would be a good program. With the exception of a hand-down on the 2 axel, Christopher landed every jump with ease. It was lovely to watch and Christopher was thrilled - rightly so. I wonder if his 124.07 in the free is a personal best. The rest of the men were fine - they all have work to do and they all know it. I was impressed with Max's quads but the intangables need work.
Ladies
I thought Agnes' program had more impact than Gracie's. Gracie has nice big jumps (in this rink she was too close to the boards) and she has good flow but right now I think of her as another "lovely skater". Agnes has life in her face and in her program - more passion. I say this as not a particular fan of either skater. Some of the difference is a matter of style, but not all.
I had not noticed Agnes off the ice before. Her programs have always been strong, bold and sometimes almost "in your face" Off the ice she seems almost quiet, with soft curls to her hair, not at all like her persona on the ice. I wonder if there was a way she could include some of those curls and softness in her programs.
When I referred to speed earlier in the week, I really noticed the speed in the step sequences. Both skaters will need to work to make those sequences look sharp and quick. Right now they both look a bit labored.
Competition
The skaters seemed to have a good time. Max and Ross arrived at the Ladies free very sunburned after a round of golf. I thought the football game would be a big problem but it turned out to be a real attraction for the skaters. I think a couple of them even went to the game. Next year they might even try to cross-market a bit. All those tail-gaters could come in and watch some skating and the skating organizers could put up a booth out in the tail-gating lot. The parking was separated well so there wasn't much problem finding a space and it was fun having somewhere interesting to walk during ice-makes. The skating media was there in force. The local media is dragging it's heels - as usual.
I'm rather surprised by this comment, colleen. Some of your previous posts have given the impression that you were really impressed with the improvement shown by R/H over the past year. What, specifically, do you think they need to focus on as the season progresses?
I may have misunderstood you comment, but it sounded as if you were still discussing Thornhill. Perhaps you were flipping back and forth between SLC and Thornhill and just didn't make that clear???
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- Nov 3, 2006
13KJC13 ,
Yes,my post was focused on SLC . If you read back, I think I made that pretty clear. SLC was what was being discussed ( or wondered about ).
I only mentioned Thornhill to say that though I couldn't see the SLC competition , I did see Thornhill and just comparing G/P's and P/I's FD programs , I prefer the Camerlengo program.. apart from how either couple might skate , or score on a given day. Having already mentioned in my previous post that I was hoping for clarification of the SLC SD PCS marks ( if possible), I didn't think it needed repeating.
We were not discussing R/H , but I was impressed with their progress last year.
ETA : ( sorry, interrupted ) Though R/H's SD was still rough at Thornhill , I thought it looked promising ( in spite of the unknowns re: how the judges will feel about Can Can , in general ) and I'm looking forward to their FD to Barcelona. Nebelhorn will be interesting for both R/H and P/I with some of the other entrants... C/B , Z/G ,M/K and P/G , in particular..
But first , we'll have JGP Turkey and the continuing adventures of Edwards and Pang..
Yes,my post was focused on SLC . If you read back, I think I made that pretty clear. SLC was what was being discussed ( or wondered about ).
I only mentioned Thornhill to say that though I couldn't see the SLC competition , I did see Thornhill and just comparing G/P's and P/I's FD programs , I prefer the Camerlengo program.. apart from how either couple might skate , or score on a given day. Having already mentioned in my previous post that I was hoping for clarification of the SLC SD PCS marks ( if possible), I didn't think it needed repeating.
We were not discussing R/H , but I was impressed with their progress last year.
ETA : ( sorry, interrupted ) Though R/H's SD was still rough at Thornhill , I thought it looked promising ( in spite of the unknowns re: how the judges will feel about Can Can , in general ) and I'm looking forward to their FD to Barcelona. Nebelhorn will be interesting for both R/H and P/I with some of the other entrants... C/B , Z/G ,M/K and P/G , in particular..
But first , we'll have JGP Turkey and the continuing adventures of Edwards and Pang..
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- Oct 22, 2005
I thought the tech scoring appropriate for what was put on the ice, at least in Ladies and Men's. Why I think it wasn't overly inflated is because only 2 ladies achieved minimum technical score in the FS. Lacoste skated fairly well for 3rd place and still missed the min score (by 0.01).
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- Feb 24, 2012
I don't fully understand then minimums; I mean I understand the principle - a certain level of quality to keep up the competition but we might find only top 10 or 15 at this rate only qualifying. Sadly that might be as good as Canada's ladies might get with Lacoste's skate and she still didn't make it. Imagine India or Brazil's chance of qualifying - probably far less. We don't want a world championship with only say Japan v. USA and an Italian, Korean and Chinese thrown in. It's not always ab out the gold.
About 47.99 Lacoste (0.01 less than minimum) - trom russian forum: "Undercalculated. Guilty will be punished!"
She has the minimum for Four Continents, and can earn minimym for Worlds at other SeniorB.
Problem was in too many skaters - at first at Euro, Worlds, Junior Worlds.
So there was preliminary round.
At ISU Congress 2012 federations with low level skaters voted to cancel preliminary round.
After that most strong federations (i.e. USA, Russia, Japan etc) achieved the decision to make technical minimum significantly higher, so that skaters of these "low level" federations can not take place at these competitions.
She has the minimum for Four Continents, and can earn minimym for Worlds at other SeniorB.
Problem was in too many skaters - at first at Euro, Worlds, Junior Worlds.
So there was preliminary round.
At ISU Congress 2012 federations with low level skaters voted to cancel preliminary round.
After that most strong federations (i.e. USA, Russia, Japan etc) achieved the decision to make technical minimum significantly higher, so that skaters of these "low level" federations can not take place at these competitions.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
mskater93, I'm sorry to cause any confusion, I meant that all the ice dancers were scored pretty high. for instance G/P's score of 146.90 would have put them in 8th place at worlds, right behind Bobrova/Soloviev and ahead of the Shibutanis. P/I would have been in 11th place in a virtual tie with Hubbell/Donohue. K/G-S would have been in 1th place, very close to Z/G. I would not be willing to bet that any of these skaters will be challenging the top ten at this year's worlds.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
You should be. Right now, we have
Virtue/Moir and Davis/White for 1-2
Pechelat/Bourzat and Weaver/Poje for 3-4
CapLan, I/K, B/S, Shibs for 5-8
There's a bit of a gap between these eight and the rest. I can imagine the top three here beating Riazanova/Tkachenko or Zhiganshina/Gazsi. If K/G-S make it, they would've made Worlds at the expense of Hubbell/Donohue. If P/I or G/P make worlds, it would've been at the expense of R/H, who were 13th.
The scores were mighty high, though. I wanna compare G/P's score here to what V/M score at Finlandia and W/P score at Ondrej Nepala before jumping to conclusions, though.
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- Nov 3, 2006
Finlandia and Nepala scores should be very interesting indeed... I guess Finlandia will be our first glimpse of H/D , who will then move on to Skate Canada, where I hope the judging will be ruthlessly fair...
I'm very curious to see how they compare to G/P..but not because of Gilles and Donohue being former partners.
Whenever a new pair or dance couple forms , you hear about how quickly they came together ..yada, yada .. but I have to say that of all the new teams last year, Hubbell / Donohue were the one team that really did show some cohesiveness and connection from the get go. I forget where it was from , but there was a very early summer video in which it was immediately evident. And they were noticeably better every time out , it seemed to me. By the time they got to World's , it was pretty impressive how far they'd come in less than a year.
G/P have not impressed me in the same way , though from what little I've seen of them , they do seem to have improved over last year. I'm not really sold on what I've seen of their material so far ( again, very little )..but if H/D have continued to grow at the same rate as last year, I can't really imagine G/P getting past them.
Didn't see SLC , but though I like K/GS a lot as skaters..I often find their FDs don't really pay off for them ( at least IMO ) ..this was also the weakness of S/B ( for whom I still mourn )..so I'm kinda doubtful as to their chances of passing H/D.. C/B..still an unknown.
Nebelhorn will give us P/I and R/H in the same competition..so maybe an idea of how they're shaping up respectively. I like both P/I's programs ( hope Milord continues to work ), thought R/H's SD was promising , but I'm waiting to see if their FD can be as good for them as last year's ( a tall order ).
R/T ..unknown ..I truly wish TAT had kept her nose out and let them keep PF.. but much will depend on technical improvements ( or not )
Z/G ..I often dislike their material..but sometimes the European judges don't share my aversion.
I'm so, so pleased with the move P/I made ( and Massi , for one , seems very optimistic about their potential )..but how far can they come how fast ?
I'm very curious to see how they compare to G/P..but not because of Gilles and Donohue being former partners.
Whenever a new pair or dance couple forms , you hear about how quickly they came together ..yada, yada .. but I have to say that of all the new teams last year, Hubbell / Donohue were the one team that really did show some cohesiveness and connection from the get go. I forget where it was from , but there was a very early summer video in which it was immediately evident. And they were noticeably better every time out , it seemed to me. By the time they got to World's , it was pretty impressive how far they'd come in less than a year.
G/P have not impressed me in the same way , though from what little I've seen of them , they do seem to have improved over last year. I'm not really sold on what I've seen of their material so far ( again, very little )..but if H/D have continued to grow at the same rate as last year, I can't really imagine G/P getting past them.
Didn't see SLC , but though I like K/GS a lot as skaters..I often find their FDs don't really pay off for them ( at least IMO ) ..this was also the weakness of S/B ( for whom I still mourn )..so I'm kinda doubtful as to their chances of passing H/D.. C/B..still an unknown.
Nebelhorn will give us P/I and R/H in the same competition..so maybe an idea of how they're shaping up respectively. I like both P/I's programs ( hope Milord continues to work ), thought R/H's SD was promising , but I'm waiting to see if their FD can be as good for them as last year's ( a tall order ).
R/T ..unknown ..I truly wish TAT had kept her nose out and let them keep PF.. but much will depend on technical improvements ( or not )
Z/G ..I often dislike their material..but sometimes the European judges don't share my aversion.
I'm so, so pleased with the move P/I made ( and Massi , for one , seems very optimistic about their potential )..but how far can they come how fast ?
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- Mar 22, 2004
Show me your money, IP At 2012 Worlds there was a 'gap' of about 6 points between B/S with 150.75m and the Shibs with 144.72, R/T 144.43, H/D 143.95, then Z/G 141.36 then a drop-off of just over 11 points to X/X with 130.27 and R/H with 129.55. I'm afraid any 'slotting in' will come after Z/G, it seems unlikely that any of the couples we saw at SLC will squeeze in between B/S and the Shibs. How often can we expect the Shibs to blow their twizzles?
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- Jun 3, 2009
We'll find out.... But my post indicated that I view the Shibs and B/S on a similar level, so obviously, I don't expect them to have such a flawed outing.
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- Sep 10, 2012
I expect both the Shibs and B/S to perform better this year: last season, they had really horrible FDs, now I've seen the new B/S's one and it's brilliant, and I expect the Shibutani's Memoirs of a Geisha to be something really good and mature, they won't surely score 150 and 144!
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- Mar 22, 2004
Yes, I believe the top ten is pretty much carved in stone. And, oh...my ears, some of their music choices are a crashing bore. Thank the skate gods for League of Extraordinsry Dancers, and the Harmonica Man. I don't know what I/K are using, but they're not coming from a place known for unusual music. At least it's unlikely to be another year of Ave Maria, and Pirates is pretty well mined out by now. Freddy Mercury is a big but interesting choice for Ralph and Hill, and I'm hoping for them to have another great program, and get to worlds again.
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- Feb 27, 2012
Nice posting on Salt Lake Figure Skating's Facebook page:
The US Team that competed this past weekend left thank you cards for our club and facility. Here's the one they left for our volunteers. Pat yourselves on the back volunteers, you deserve it!
(Click to see photo of the thank-you note for volunteers.)
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